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Date: 10 Nov 2004 20:51:13
From: Avanti
Subject: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
[FEN "8/p2bkp2/1r4p1/1p1pP2p/5P2/2R5/4K1PP/1R6 w - - 0 1"]

Is this drawn or won for black!
thanks in advance






 
Date: 11 Nov 2004 22:43:19
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?= Heigl
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
Avanti wrote:
>
> [FEN "8/p2bkp2/1r4p1/1p1pP2p/5P2/2R5/4K1PP/1R6 w - - 0 1"]
>
> Is this drawn or won for black!
> thanks in advance

Black is probably lost here. After 1. Rc7 I don't see how Black can't
prevent the white king from invading the queenside (Ke2-e3-d4-c5).
1...a5 simply loses a pawn because of 2. Ra7 a4 3. Rxa4 bxa4 4. Rxb6
and Black is toast. After 1...a6 2. Ke3 Black can prevent the white
king from going to c5 only by pushing b4, but then White plays
Rc7-c5-a5, Rb3 and either Kc5 or Ra5-a4 (depends on the position of
the bishop) and again the pawn is lost.

Claus-Juergen


  
Date: 12 Nov 2004 17:21:06
From: Glenn C. Rhoads
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
Claus-J�rgen Heigl <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Avanti wrote:
> >
> > [FEN "8/p2bkp2/1r4p1/1p1pP2p/5P2/2R5/4K1PP/1R6 w - - 0 1"]
> >
> > Is this drawn or won for black!
> > thanks in advance
>
> Black is probably lost here. After 1. Rc7 I don't see how Black can't
> prevent the white king from invading the queenside (Ke2-e3-d4-c5).
> 1...a5 simply loses a pawn because of 2. Ra7 a4 3. Rxa4 bxa4 4. Rxb6
> and Black is toast. After 1...a6 2. Ke3 Black can prevent the white
> king from going to c5 only by pushing b4, but then White plays
> Rc7-c5-a5, Rb3 and either Kc5 or Ra5-a4 (depends on the position of
> the bishop) and again the pawn is lost.

After 1.Rc7 a6 2.Ke3, black should play 2...Rc6 (my suggested 2.Rbc1
prevents this). White's three choices are

A. 3.Rxc6 Bxc6 4.Kd4(Rc1) Kd7 5.Kc5 Kc7.

B. 3.Rc1 Rxc1 4.Rxc1 a5
B1: 5.Rc7 Kd8 6.Rc5 a4! 7.Kd4 (7.Rxd5 a3! gives white a real problem) b4
8.Rxd5 Kc7 9.?
B2: 5.Kd4 b4 6.Kxd5 b3 7.Kc4 a4 8.Kc3
(There are some other possibilities here.)

C. 3.Ra7 Ke6 4.?

I don't think white has an advantage in any of these lines.


   
Date: 14 Nov 2004 00:30:53
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?= Heigl
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
"Glenn C. Rhoads" wrote:
>
> After 1.Rc7 a6 2.Ke3, black should play 2...Rc6 (my suggested 2.Rbc1
> prevents this). White's three choices are
>
> A. 3.Rxc6 Bxc6 4.Kd4 Kd7 5.Kc5 Kc7.

Hello Glenn,

I think this is the critical variation. First White should play 5. Ra1
to force the black bishop to cover the a-pawn. If Black want's to
advance his pawns his bishop should be on the e8-a4 diagonal. So Black
will lose some tempi to get his pawns going.

5. Ra1 Bb7 6. Kc5 Kc7 7. Ra3!

White prepares a breakthrough on the kingside. Black can't move his
king because then White can play Kb6 and intrude with his rook on the
c-file. Any pawn move loses a pawn and gives White an open file.
Therefore
7...Bc8 is forced.
8. f5! White wants to create a passed pawn on the h-file. Now:

a) 8...Bxf5 9. Rxa6 and another black pawn will fall. I think White is
winning here.

b) 8...gxf5 9. Rh3 Bd7 (Black only chance is to advance his pawns) 10.
Rxh5 a5 (10...f4 11. Rh7 Be6 12. Rf4) 11. Rh3 b4 12. Rd3

White has managed to create a passed pawn and is ready to capture more
pawns. If Black is forced to stop the h-pawn with his bishop, White
can eliminate the queenside pawns. For example (the following is just
a sketch, not a thorough analysis): 12...Kd8 (Black wants to stop the
pawn with his king) 13. Rxd5 Ke7 14. h4 b3 15. Rd6 (controls f6)
15...a4 16. Rb6 Kg7 17. Kb4 Kg7 18. Ka3 (the pawns are stopped by the
king, now the rook is free again) 18...Kf8 (Black can only wait) 19.
g3 Kg7 20. Rb7 Bc6 21. Rc7 Be8 22. e6 Kf8 23. e7+ Kg7 24. Rc8 and
that's it.

c) 8...g5 9. Kxd5 is obviously bad for Black as White will create a
passed pawn on e6 or capture the queenside pawns.

d) 8...Kd7 9. fxg6 fxg6 10. Rg3 Ke6 11. Kd4 Kf7 12. Rc3 Bf5 13. Rc7+
Ke8 14. Ra7
White has a passed e-pawn and will win pawns. This is obviously won.

The critical line is something like b). I'm not absolutely sure that
there isn't a rescue for Black, but I think it is clear that White has
a big advantage.

Claus-Juergen


  
Date: 11 Nov 2004 23:08:26
From: Avanti
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte

"Claus-J�rgen Heigl" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Avanti wrote:
> >
> > [FEN "8/p2bkp2/1r4p1/1p1pP2p/5P2/2R5/4K1PP/1R6 w - - 0 1"]
> >
> > Is this drawn or won for black!
> > thanks in advance
>
> Black is probably lost here. After 1. Rc7 I don't see how Black can't
> prevent the white king from invading the queenside (Ke2-e3-d4-c5).
> 1...a5 simply loses a pawn because of 2. Ra7 a4 3. Rxa4 bxa4 4. Rxb6
> and Black is toast. After 1...a6 2. Ke3 Black can prevent the white
> king from going to c5 only by pushing b4, but then White plays
> Rc7-c5-a5, Rb3 and either Kc5 or Ra5-a4 (depends on the position of
> the bishop) and again the pawn is lost.
>
> Claus-Juergen

Thanks for the replies so far, after my earlier post I tried to analyse
according to pawn structure and concluded that black is more active , indeed
playing this against my palm handheld (pocket chess) I could win as black ,
although I dont think it plays a very strong game.





   
Date: 12 Nov 2004 19:43:54
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?= Heigl
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
Avanti wrote:
>
> Thanks for the replies so far, after my earlier post I tried to analyse
> according to pawn structure and concluded that black is more active , indeed
> playing this against my palm handheld (pocket chess) I could win as black ,
> although I dont think it plays a very strong game.

If you want to evaluate a position a better approach might be to let
the computer play the position against itself several times. At least
this should minimize the impact of different playing strength of the
two sides. Of course you may discover that your program doesn't
understand this kind of position.

I prefer the advanced chess method. That is, I test my ideas with a
chess engine running in analysis mode.

I also checked Glenn's line. I think in this line White has no more
than a draw. In the final position, Black threatens Rc2 with an attack
on the white kingside pawns while also preparing an advance of the
queenside pawns (Rc2, b3-b2, Bc4-a2). White doesn't have a mating
attack, so the Black plan is dangerous and White has to settle for a
draw.

I still think the Kc5 plan is winning for White. White wins the
queenside pawns and keeps his kingside pawns. White seeks to exchange
the black rook and can then intrude with his king on the dark squares.
After rooks are exchanged and the queenside pawns are won, White can
even afford to trade his remaining rook versus bishop and d-pawn and
win the pawn endgame. So Black has no effective means to defend the
d-pawn as well.

Claus-Juergen


 
Date: 11 Nov 2004 12:16:09
From: Glenn C. Rhoads
Subject: Re: Another positional question for a novice come intermediatte
"Avanti" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> [FEN "8/p2bkp2/1r4p1/1p1pP2p/5P2/2R5/4K1PP/1R6 w - - 0 1"]
>
> Is this drawn or won for black!
> thanks in advance

I'm not convinced black has the advantage!
Black does have the passed a and b pawns but the piece placement
favors white; white can take control of the open c-file and then
penetrate along it to take control of the 7'th rank, while the
black rook isn't doing anything active at the moment. It appears
to me that white can use his plusses to force at least a draw
before the black pawns ever become threatening.

1.Rc7 a6
2.Rc1 b4
3.Ra7 Ke6
4.R1c7 Bb5+
5.Ke3 f6
6.exf6 Kxf6
7.Rf7+ Ke6
8.Kd4! With the subtle tactical threat of 9.f5 gxf5 10.Rh7 Kf6
(else Rh6 is mate) 11.Rh6+ Kg5 12.Rxb6
8.... Rc6 The only defense (The rook is now protected)

Now white has a draw by perpetual check: Rae7+, Kd7, Rd7+, Ke7, Rde7+,
etc.