Fischer's prognosis

Date: 07 Mar 2006 06:06:58
From:
Subject: Fischer's prognosis

People claim that Fischer is crazy and does not have a sense of
reality. I guess there are radio interviews that support this.

so what is Fischer's prognosis; what mental condition does he have? Is
it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?

Fischer could not have been crazy if he became world champion. crazy
people can't do things like that.

Date: 17 Mar 2006 04:50:06
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

do you really think crazy people are crazy all of the time? the nuttiest
people can have completely sane states of mind at one time and a
completley insane one another time. maybe you dont know what you were
talking about?

Date: 13 Mar 2006 08:33:53
From: Skeptic
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

> Neither account mentions anything about "arguing over a chess game,"
> in fact the ACB account directly contradicts the idea. And in any event
> Capablanca died seven hours after leaving the chess club. So there
> appears to be no support for your claim.
> And even if it were true, it hardly constitutes any grounds to
> question Capablanca's sanity. I would say virtually every serious chess
> player has argued over a game at one time or another.

Taylor:

It's the usual case of a chess "fact" created by adding 2+2 together
and getting 5.

The story is that Capablanca getting a heart attack because he was
"arguing over a chess game" played by two amateurs, or (in another
version I've heard) because he saw an amateur make a horrible blunder
in a game.

It was probably created when the two facts that a). Capablanca was
watching two amateurs analyze a game, and b). Capablanca had a heart
attack, were joined together into a story where Capablanca had the
heart attack BECAUSE he was watching the two amateurs play.

There isn't the slightest evidence that the amateur's games caused the
heart attack. Suffice to say that a world chess champion, making a
living by giving simultaneous displays and lectures, would not have a
high life expectancy if amateurs' blunders shocked him.

If anything, you'd think that the world chess champion would be the
last person on the planet to be shocked by amateur's chess blunders.

Date: 13 Mar 2006 07:38:45
From: Sam Sloan
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

Fischer is my friend. Don't make fun of him

Sam Sloan

Date: 13 Mar 2006 03:06:50
From: David Ames
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

help bot wrote:
> In any
> case, I don't have and cannot produce the *formal* death certificate,
> so it is "a stretch" for me to question the cause of Capablanca's
> death, which I cannot even prove ever happenned. :)
>

I believe a death certificate is not a public record in New York City.
Concerning the rest of the state, I have no idea.

David Ames

Date: 13 Mar 2006 14:43:37
From: Paul Rubin
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

"David Ames" <[email protected] > writes:
> > In any case, I don't have and cannot produce the *formal* death
> > certificate, so it is "a stretch" for me to question the cause of
> > Capablanca's death, which I cannot even prove ever happenned. :)
> >
> I believe a death certificate is not a public record in New York City.
> Concerning the rest of the state, I have no idea.

They appear to be public if they're from before 1949 (Capablanca died
in 1942). It looks like there's a room where you can view them on
microfilm:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/vitalrecords/visit.shtml

To get them by mail:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/vitalrecords/death.shtml

Date: 09 Mar 2006 05:42:20
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

help bot wrote:
> I love the way this guy (tkings) switches back and forth between
> demanding a *formal* diagnosis and settling for casual observation,
> depending on his needs. LOL!

Greg, I think you are confusing two different points. Concerning
formal diagnosis, I said that I considered it unlikely or impossible to
get any valid prognosis for Fischer without a formal diagnosis. It's
hard to say where someone's going if you don't know where he is.
Concerning "casual observations," I brought up the examples of
Morphy, Steinitz, Rubinstein, Nimzovitch et al to counter the OP's
unsupported blanket generalization that a "crazy person" could not be a
world chess champion. The facts of their psychological problems are, to
my knowledge, well established, even after discounting the fabrications
and exaggerations made of them. And in their cases, unlike Fischer's, a
prognosis is obviously inapt.

> Dr. Fine apparently had no trouble rendering an opinion, despite not
> completing a battery of psychological tests on Fischer. Unfortunately,
> his comments are not held in high regard so the fact that he was a
> trained shrink in no way settles the issue of Fischer's mental
> problems.

Quite.

> Listed among the purported "paragons of sanity" is Jose Capablanca,
> who *died* arguing over a chess game -- wake up!

Eh? The New York Times report of his death, dated 9 ch 1942, says
Capablanca "died at 5:30 AM yesterday in Mt. Sinai Hospital ... after
he had collapsed from a cerebral hemmorhage at 10:30 PM Saturday night
[7 ch] while watching an offhand game at the Manhattan Chess Club
... His age was 53."
The ch-April 1942 American Chess Bulletin is more detailed:
"A session of 'pot-chess' was in progress. Surrounding the two
players were the happy kibitzers. At one edge, enjoying himself as much
as any, sat Capablanca. He kept his criticisms to himself, but the
smiles lighting up his features spoke volumes. And everyone understood.

"Casually the former world champion chatted with his friends --
Messrs. Atlas, Kenton, and Link. Suddenly there came a pause. 'Capa'
was not himself. He asked aid to remove his coat. High blood pressure
was taking its toll. The collapse came and Dr. Moschowitz sent him by
ambulance to Mt. Sinai Hospital."

Neither account mentions anything about "arguing over a chess game,"
in fact the ACB account directly contradicts the idea. And in any event
Capablanca died seven hours after leaving the chess club. So there
appears to be no support for your claim.
And even if it were true, it hardly constitutes any grounds to
question Capablanca's sanity. I would say virtually every serious chess
player has argued over a game at one time or another.

Date: 08 Mar 2006 21:23:26
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

I love the way this guy (tkings) switches back and forth between
demanding a *formal* diagnosis and settling for casual observation,
depending on his needs. LOL!

Dr. Fine apparently had no trouble rendering an opinion, despite not
completing a battery of psychological tests on Fischer. Unfortunately,
his comments are not held in high regard so the fact that he was a
trained shrink in no way settles the issue of Fischer's mental
problems.

Listed among the purported "paragons of sanity" is Jose Capablanca,
who *died* arguing over a chess game -- wake up! You want to know the
saddest part? In all my years of reading chess books and magazines, I
have never seen the position in question published; maybe it is
automatically assumed that Capablanca was right, so why bother. In any
case, I don't have and cannot produce the *formal* death certificate,
so it is "a stretch" for me to question the cause of Capablanca's
death, which I cannot even prove ever happenned. :)

"Akiba Rubinstein and Aron Nimzovitch, both in the world's top 5 in
the 1920s, suffered from severe persecution complexes."

Actually, Rubinstein was constantly harrassed by an invisible fly,
who insisted that he play for a draw in every game. And Nimzowitch had
a style of play which was so hideously ugly, the other players couldn't
help but persecute and ridicule him. So you see, they were both
perfectly sane -- though they gave the superficial *appearance* of
being crazy. :)

Date: 08 Mar 2006 14:40:22
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Reuben Fine claimed there were two kinds of world champions: A) those
> who weren't interested in anything except chess (Fischer was a classic
> example); and B) those who had other interests as well. He said type
> A were generally crazy and type B were not. He discussed this in
> detail in his book "The Psychology of the Chess Player". On the other
> hand, that book seemed pretty crazy itself in many ways.

Yes, I have that egregious little book (if at 74 pages it can be
called a book). Written in 1956, it does not mention Fischer, but
surely would have were it written later.
The actual terms Fine used for his two types were "heroes" (among
whom he numbered Morphy, Steinitz, Capablanca and Alekhine) and
"non-heroes" (Staunton, Anderssen, Lasker, Euwe, Botvinnik). For the
latter chess was merely one of several important interests, for the
former it was pretty much the only interest.
Fine says his four heroes all entertained "fantasies of omnipotence"
and showed "considerable emotional disturbance" either during their
chess careers (Capablanca, Alekhine) or soon thereafter (Morphy,
Steinitz). Frankly, I'm not at all persuaded about Capablanca; to my
knowledge, his troubles stemmed more from physical sources (high blood
pressure) than psychological. Much of what Fine says about the others
is anecdotal, without supporting evidence, and some of it is now known
to be apocryphal. The amount of factual error and worthless hearsay in
Fine's little tome is amazing.
As far as hero types generally being crazy, again I don't think Fine
had much of a case, Fischer notwithstanding. Other great masters who
(as far as I know) have been pretty much obsessed with chess included
Pillsbury, shall, Blackburne, Janowski, Spielmann, Tal, Korchnoi,
Portisch, and Kasparov, and while many of them had their quirks, I
don't think any is considered psychotic.
He might have made a case for the hero type being at least more prone
to "emotional disturbance," but the sample he uses is too small to have
statistical significance, and too selective to be logically valid.

Date: 08 Mar 2006 06:51:36
From:
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

[email protected] wrote:
> People claim that Fischer is crazy and does not have a sense of
> reality. I guess there are radio interviews that support this.
>
> so what is Fischer's prognosis; what mental condition does he have? Is
> it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?

A moot question at this point. To my knowledge, Fischer has never
submitted to any accredited medical/psychiatric/psychological testing
that could formally determine what "mental condition" he has. Nor does
he seem likely to in the near future. Absent that, we mainly have just
armchair diagnoses based on anecdotal evidence and his public
statements. He seems disturbed in certain ways, and his
racial/religious bigotry is highly offensive, but to speak of a
prognosis when you don't even have a proper diagnosis is rather a
stretch.

> Fischer could not have been crazy if he became world champion. crazy
> people can't do things like that.

Sounds rather like a circular semantic argument. In fact, some rather
strange (highly neurotic, if not outright psychotic) individuals have
risen very high in chess. Akiba Rubinstein and Aron Nimzovitch, both in
the world's top 5 in the 1920s, suffered from severe persecution
complexes. Paul Morphy, strongest player in the world in the mid-1800s,
suffered what appear to have been occasional psychotic episodes after
retiring from chess, as did Carlos Torre, a very promising young
Mexican-American player in the 1920s. Wilhelm Steinitz, (1836-1900,
world champion 1886-1894), was briefly confined to a Moscow asylum in
1897 (though perhaps on dubious grounds).
To a certain extent, paranoia is a realistic outlook in chess, so
chess greatness and "craziness" may not be so mutually exclusive as you
believe. On the other hand, many world champions have been paragons of
sanity: Lasker, Capablanca, Euwe, and others.

Date: 08 Mar 2006 13:42:03
From: Paul Rubin
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

[email protected] writes:
> To a certain extent, paranoia is a realistic outlook in chess, so
> chess greatness and "craziness" may not be so mutually exclusive as you
> believe. On the other hand, many world champions have been paragons of
> sanity: Lasker, Capablanca, Euwe, and others.

Reuben Fine claimed there were two kinds of world champions: A) those
who weren't interested in anything except chess (Fischer was a classic
example); and B) those who had other interests as well. He said type
A were generally crazy and type B were not. He discussed this in
detail in his book "The Psychology of the Chess Player". On the other
hand, that book seemed pretty crazy itself in many ways.

Date: 08 Mar 2006 01:10:08
From:
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

Date: 07 Mar 2006 21:06:59
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

>Maybe he's like that Dustin Hoffman's character in the movie Rainman?

Who, Fischer? Actually, Fischer started out as a poor chessplayer,
which doesn't jibe very well with the theory that he is an
idiot-savant.
And Sam Sloan just isn't good enough to be classified as a savant.

This doesn't rule out the idiot part, however. :)

Date: 07 Mar 2006 21:01:21
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

> People claim that Fischer is crazy and does not have a sense of
> reality. I guess there are radio interviews that support this.

<People claim that Scam Sloan is crazy and does not have a sense of
<reality. I guess there are Wilipedia articles that support this.

> so what is Fischer's prognosis;

Terminal idiocy?

> what mental condition does he have? Is
> it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?

<So what is Sloan's prognosis; what mental condition does he have? Is
<it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?

I think Sloan may have a bad case of
I-need-to-be-the-center-of-attention disorder.

> Fischer could not have been crazy if he became world champion. crazy
> people can't do things like that.

It depends on what the definition of crazy is.

<Sloan must be crazy for stating that the 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3, f6 is a sound
opening
for black. Crazy people do things like that.

Did he write "sound"? I thought he wrote that this opening is
playable from the Black side, against a certain level of opposition. I
often hang pieces in the opening or middlegame, yet find this to be
quite playable against a certain level of opposition. :)

Date: 08 Mar 2006 09:39:38
From: Wylie Wilde
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

Maybe he's like that Dustin Hoffman's character in the movie Rainman?

Date: 07 Mar 2006 07:27:13
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

Sam Sloan is definitely crazy. Everyone knows that.

Date: 07 Mar 2006 10:05:55
From: Say No To g4
Subject: Re: Fischer's prognosis

> People claim that Fischer is crazy and does not have a sense of
> reality. I guess there are radio interviews that support this.
>

People claim that Scam Sloan is crazy and does not have a sense of
reality. I guess there are Wilipedia articles that support this.

> so what is Fischer's prognosis; what mental condition does he have? Is
> it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?
>

So what is Sloan's prognosis; what mental condition does he have? Is
it bipolar disorder, alzheimer's, or something else?

> Fischer could not have been crazy if he became world champion. crazy
> people can't do things like that.
>

Sloan must be crazy for stating that the 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3, f6 is a sound opening
for black. Crazy people do things like that.