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Main
Date: 28 Sep 2008 22:53:37
From: Sanny
Subject: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
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Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
way to recover that pawn.
Should I remove this opening:
1. e2-e4 d7-d5
2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?
Please suggest if this opening should be removed from GetClub
database?
Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM27976&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(help bot) -- (master)
1. e2-e4{12} d7-d5{0}
2. e4xd5{4} Ng8-f6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{28} Bc8-d7{898}
4. Bb5-c4{34} b7-b5{366}
5. Bc4-b3{40} Bd7-f5{514}
6. Qd1-e2{58} a7-a6{528}
7. a2-a4{138} b5-b4{408}
8. c2-c4{80} b4-c3{398}
9. Nb1-c3{22} g7-g6{438}
10. Ng1-f3{86} Bf8-h6{2450}
11. Ke1-g1{76} Bh6-f4{1548}
12. Rf1-e1{64} Bf4-d6{602}
13. d2-d3{62} h7-h5{612}
14. Bc1-g5{76} Nb8-d7{472}
15. Bb3-c4{56} Ke8-g8{574}
16. h2-h3{56} Nd7-b6{1156}
17. a4-a5{54} Nb6-c4{558}
18. d3-c4{28} c7-c5{640}
19. d5-c6{90} Qd8-b8{678}
20. Nc3-d5{66} Nf6-d5{366}
21. c4-d5{98} Qb8-b3{762}
22. Re1-d1{110} Rf8-b8{688}
23. Bg5-e3{226} Qb3-b2{664}
24. Qe2-b2{60} Rb8-b2{674}
25. Nf3-d2{1464} Rb2-b5{840}
26. Nd2-c4{102} Bf5-e4{346}
27. Nc4-b6{64} Ra8-b8{870}
28. f2-f3{144} Be4-f5{996}
29. g2-g4{12} h5-g4{420}
30. h3-g4{2094} Bf5-c8{2662}
31. Rd1-b1{154} Rb5-b1{664}
32. Ra1-b1{178} f7-f6{558}
33. Rb1-d1{258} g6-g5{1106}
34. Kg1-f2{56} Kg8-h7{1966}
35. Rd1-c1{102} Bd6-c7{814}
36. Be3-c5{96} Kh7-g7{980}
37. Nb6-c8{56} Rb8-c8{386}
38. Bc5-e7{30} Kg7-f7{746}
39. Be7-b4{86} Bc7-f4{1038}
40. Rc1-c4{40} Bf4-e5{640}
41. d5-d6{504} Kf7-e6{928}
42. d6-d7{102} Rc8-h8{1322}
43. Kf2-e3{94} Be5-f4{1240}
44. Rc4-f4{106} g5-f4{844}
45. Ke3-f4{70} Rh8-b8{1300}
46. Bb4-c5{32} Rb8-g8{576}
47. Bc5-b6{66} Ke6-e7{494}
48. Qd7-d8{Q}{42} Rg8-d8{392}
49. Bb6-d8{26} Ke7-d8{770}
50. Kf4-f5{20} Kd8-c7{2038}
51. Kf5-f6{8} Kc7-d6{1312}
52. g4-g5{28} Kd6-c6{886}
53. g5-g6{6} Kc6-b5{678}
54. g6-g7{10} Kb5-a5{882}
55. Qg7-g8{Q}{12} Ka5-b5{1130}
56. Kf6-e5{20} Kb5-b6{1776}
57. Ke5-d5{28} Kb6-c7{30}
58. Qg8-e6{32} Kc7-b7{16}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM27976&game=Chess
Since Help Bot was a pawn up in the opening he easily get the Queen
after exchanging all the pieces.
Despite being Master Level it lost as it played a wrong opening.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Oct 2008 05:03:28
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 20, 7:01=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 20, 3:49=A0am, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 2:07=A0am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line agai=
nst
> > > > Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a f=
ew
> > > > times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where h=
e
> > > > played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, a=
nd
> > > > Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8)=
,
> > > > Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already =
a
> > > > tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tem=
pos
> > > > behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but=
it
> > > > certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> > > > Anand) and made it little more.
>
> > > You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
> > > although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
> > > opening.
>
> > > Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
> > > Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
>
> > > 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
> > > 8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-=
0
> > > 15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
> > > 21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
> > > Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg=
4
> > > 34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
> > > 40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
>
> > Yes, I just saw your game. This was another game in which Kasparov
> > actually won. I am talking about a game played where Kasparov lost and
> > Anand won. Kasparov was black and played e4 d5, e x d5,
> > Q x d5, Nc3 Q d8. I believe these were the first four moves. I am
> > writing this purely from memory of a game I saw (in a book) more than
> > 6 years ago, so I could be wrong.
>
> =A0 I have just checked ChessBase Mega Database 2005, and can find no
> Kasparov-Anand game which opened 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8. CB
> shows no game in which either of them ever played that line as Black.
> The only game with that line involving either of them is this:
>
> [Event "Internet blitz 5'"]
> [Site "Internet ICC"]
> [Date "1998.06.02"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "Kasparov, Garry"]
> [Black "Serper, Grigory"]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [ECO "B01"]
> [WhiteElo "2825"]
> [BlackElo "2540"]
> [PlyCount "93"]
> [EventDate "1998.05.24"]
> [EventType "match (blitz)"]
> [EventRounds "1"]
> [Source "ChessBase"]
> [SourceDate "2002.11.25"]
>
> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bd3 Bxd3 7.
> Qxd3 c6 8. Bg5 e6 9. O-O-O Nbd7 10. Ne5 Nxe5 11. dxe5 Qxd3 12. Rxd3
> Nd5 13. Ne4 b5 14. Rhd1 h6 15. Bh4 g5 16. Bg3 O-O-O 17. h4 Be7 18. h5
> Rd7 19. f3 Rhd8 20. Bf2 Nf4 21. Rxd7 Rxd7 22. Rxd7 Kxd7 23. g4 a6 24.
> Kd2 Nd5 25. c3 a5 26. b3 a4 27. bxa4 bxa4 28. Kd3 Nf4+ 29. Kc4 Nd5 30.
> Nc5+ Bxc5 31. Bxc5 Ke8 32. Ba3 f5 33. exf6 Kf7 34. Kd4 Nxf6 35. c4 Nd7
> 36. Bd6 Kf6 37. Kc3 c5 38. Kb2 e5 39. Ka3 Nb6 40. Bxc5 Nxc4+ 41. Kxa4
> Nd2 42. Kb5 Nxf3 43. a4 Ke6 44. a5 Kd7 45. a6 Kc8 46. Bd6 e4 47. Kb6
> 1-0
>
> =A0 I suppose the game you recall might have been omitted from the
> database, but given the importance of any Kasparov-Anand game, it
> seems unlikely. I suspect you are thinking of a game between two other
> players.- Hide quoted text -
I guess you are right. I could be confused. I did see that game over 6
years ago and was writing purely from memory. So, if the only game
between these two players, where the above line was played (and e4 d5,
e x d5 Q x d5 Nc3 Q d8 was never played between these two) was the
one you wrote above than that must have been the game I saw the and
the above line must have been seen by me in some other game. :)
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 12:39:40
From: Javert
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 20, 10:01=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 20, 3:49=A0am, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 2:07=A0am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line agai=
nst
> > > > Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a f=
ew
> > > > times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where h=
e
> > > > played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, a=
nd
> > > > Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8)=
,
> > > > Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already =
a
> > > > tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tem=
pos
> > > > behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but=
it
> > > > certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> > > > Anand) and made it little more.
>
> > > You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
> > > although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
> > > opening.
>
> > > Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
> > > Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
>
> > > 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
> > > 8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-=
0
> > > 15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
> > > 21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
> > > Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg=
4
> > > 34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
> > > 40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
>
> > Yes, I just saw your game. This was another game in which Kasparov
> > actually won. I am talking about a game played where Kasparov lost and
> > Anand won. Kasparov was black and played e4 d5, e x d5,
> > Q x d5, Nc3 Q d8. I believe these were the first four moves. I am
> > writing this purely from memory of a game I saw (in a book) more than
> > 6 years ago, so I could be wrong.
>
> =A0 I have just checked ChessBase Mega Database 2005, and can find no
> Kasparov-Anand game which opened 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8. CB
> shows no game in which either of them ever played that line as Black.
> The only game with that line involving either of them is this:
>
> [Event "Internet blitz 5'"]
> [Site "Internet ICC"]
> [Date "1998.06.02"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "Kasparov, Garry"]
> [Black "Serper, Grigory"]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [ECO "B01"]
> [WhiteElo "2825"]
> [BlackElo "2540"]
> [PlyCount "93"]
> [EventDate "1998.05.24"]
> [EventType "match (blitz)"]
> [EventRounds "1"]
> [Source "ChessBase"]
> [SourceDate "2002.11.25"]
>
> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bd3 Bxd3 7.
> Qxd3 c6 8. Bg5 e6 9. O-O-O Nbd7 10. Ne5 Nxe5 11. dxe5 Qxd3 12. Rxd3
> Nd5 13. Ne4 b5 14. Rhd1 h6 15. Bh4 g5 16. Bg3 O-O-O 17. h4 Be7 18. h5
> Rd7 19. f3 Rhd8 20. Bf2 Nf4 21. Rxd7 Rxd7 22. Rxd7 Kxd7 23. g4 a6 24.
> Kd2 Nd5 25. c3 a5 26. b3 a4 27. bxa4 bxa4 28. Kd3 Nf4+ 29. Kc4 Nd5 30.
> Nc5+ Bxc5 31. Bxc5 Ke8 32. Ba3 f5 33. exf6 Kf7 34. Kd4 Nxf6 35. c4 Nd7
> 36. Bd6 Kf6 37. Kc3 c5 38. Kb2 e5 39. Ka3 Nb6 40. Bxc5 Nxc4+ 41. Kxa4
> Nd2 42. Kb5 Nxf3 43. a4 Ke6 44. a5 Kd7 45. a6 Kc8 46. Bd6 e4 47. Kb6
> 1-0
>
> =A0 I suppose the game you recall might have been omitted from the
> database, but given the importance of any Kasparov-Anand game, it
> seems unlikely. I suspect you are thinking of a game between two other
> players.
Kasparov-Letterman was close, but deviated with 3...Qe6+
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 07:01:09
From:
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 20, 3:49=A0am, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 20, 2:07=A0am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line agains=
t
> > > Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a few
> > > times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where he
> > > played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, and
> > > Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8),
> > > Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already a
> > > tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tempo=
s
> > > behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but i=
t
> > > certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> > > Anand) and made it little more.
>
> > You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
> > although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
> > opening.
>
> > Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
> > Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
>
> > 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
> > 8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-0
> > 15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
> > 21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
> > Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg4
> > 34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
> > 40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
>
> Yes, I just saw your game. This was another game in which Kasparov
> actually won. I am talking about a game played where Kasparov lost and
> Anand won. Kasparov was black and played e4 d5, e x d5,
> Q x d5, Nc3 Q d8. I believe these were the first four moves. I am
> writing this purely from memory of a game I saw (in a book) more than
> 6 years ago, so I could be wrong.
I have just checked ChessBase Mega Database 2005, and can find no
Kasparov-Anand game which opened 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8. CB
shows no game in which either of them ever played that line as Black.
The only game with that line involving either of them is this:
[Event "Internet blitz 5'"]
[Site "Internet ICC"]
[Date "1998.06.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Black "Serper, Grigory"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2825"]
[BlackElo "2540"]
[PlyCount "93"]
[EventDate "1998.05.24"]
[EventType "match (blitz)"]
[EventRounds "1"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2002.11.25"]
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bd3 Bxd3 7.
Qxd3 c6 8. Bg5 e6 9. O-O-O Nbd7 10. Ne5 Nxe5 11. dxe5 Qxd3 12. Rxd3
Nd5 13. Ne4 b5 14. Rhd1 h6 15. Bh4 g5 16. Bg3 O-O-O 17. h4 Be7 18. h5
Rd7 19. f3 Rhd8 20. Bf2 Nf4 21. Rxd7 Rxd7 22. Rxd7 Kxd7 23. g4 a6 24.
Kd2 Nd5 25. c3 a5 26. b3 a4 27. bxa4 bxa4 28. Kd3 Nf4+ 29. Kc4 Nd5 30.
Nc5+ Bxc5 31. Bxc5 Ke8 32. Ba3 f5 33. exf6 Kf7 34. Kd4 Nxf6 35. c4 Nd7
36. Bd6 Kf6 37. Kc3 c5 38. Kb2 e5 39. Ka3 Nb6 40. Bxc5 Nxc4+ 41. Kxa4
Nd2 42. Kb5 Nxf3 43. a4 Ke6 44. a5 Kd7 45. a6 Kc8 46. Bd6 e4 47. Kb6
1-0
I suppose the game you recall might have been omitted from the
database, but given the importance of any Kasparov-Anand game, it
seems unlikely. I suspect you are thinking of a game between two other
players.
|
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 00:49:26
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 20, 2:07=A0am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line against
> > Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a few
> > times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where he
> > played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, and
> > Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8),
> > Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already a
> > tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tempos
> > behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but it
> > certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> > Anand) and made it little more.
>
> You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
> although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
> opening.
>
> Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
> Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
>
> 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
> 8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-0
> 15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
> 21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
> Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg4
> 34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
> 40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
Yes, I just saw your game. This was another game in which Kasparov
actually won. I am talking about a game played where Kasparov lost and
Anand won. Kasparov was black and played e4 d5, e x d5,
Q x d5, Nc3 Q d8. I believe these were the first four moves. I am
writing this purely from memory of a game I saw (in a book) more than
6 years ago, so I could be wrong.
>
> Sam Sloan
|
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 00:45:52
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 20, 2:07=A0am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line against
> > Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a few
> > times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where he
> > played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, and
> > Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8),
> > Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already a
> > tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tempos
> > behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but it
> > certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> > Anand) and made it little more.
>
> You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
> although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
> opening.
Hold on. Did Kasparov play that move as white. Because I clearly
remember Kasparov playing that move against Anand and losing that
game. But I saw that game (in a book) about 6 years back, so I might
be confused. Are you saying Anand played the d5 and then Q x d5 and
then retreated back to his Qd8 square and then ended up winning the
game. :)
>
> Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
> Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
>
> 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
> 8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-0
> 15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
> 21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
> Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg4
> 34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
> 40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
>
> Sam Sloan
|
| |
Date: 19 Oct 2008 14:07:05
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 19, 1:03=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote:
> The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line against
> Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a few
> times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where he
> played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, and
> Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8),
> Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already a
> tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tempos
> behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but it
> certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
> Anand) and made it little more.
>
You are mistaken. Anand was black in that game. Kasparov won the game
although it is believed that Anand got the advantage out of the
opening.
Kasparov Garry - Anand Viswanathan [B01/14]
Ch World (match) (PCA), New York (USA), 1995
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6 7.Bd3 Nbd7
8.f4 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Kh1 Bf5 11.Bc4 e6 12.Be2 h5 13.Be3 Rd8 14.Bg1 0-0
15.Bf3 Nd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bf2 Qc7 18.Rc1 f6 19.Nd3 Rfe8 20.b3 Nb6
21.a4 Nc8 22.c4 Qf7 23.a5 Bf8 24.cxd5 cxd5 25.Bh4 Nd6 26.a6 b6 27.Ne5
Qe6 28.g4 hxg4 29.Nxg4 Bg7 30.Rc7 Ne4 31.Ne3 Bh3 32.Rg1 g5 33.Bg4 Bxg4
34.Qxg4 Qxg4 35.Rxg4 Nd6 36.Bf2 Nb5 37.Rb7 Re4 38.f5 Rxg4 39.Nxg4 Rc8
40.Rd7 Rc2 41.Rxd5 1-0
Sam Sloan
|
| |
Date: 19 Oct 2008 10:08:47
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 30, 1:37=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 30, 4:03=A0am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > =A0 This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinav=
ian
> > > Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
> > > and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
> > > variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
> > > variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
> > > pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
> > > (Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).
>
> > I have added the new opening So GetClub will play safe moves till
> > first 6 moves.
>
> =A0 One interesting ploy would be to have the program
> play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
> opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
> duffer. =A0 Then of course you begin playing decent-
> looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
> attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
> moves. =A0For instance:
>
> =A01. e4 =A0d5
>
> =A02. ed =A0Qxd5
>
> =A03. Nc3 =A0Qe5+
No, don't play Q e5 +. You will end up in big trouble. If you want to
be aggressive its better to play Qa5 after white plays Nc3. Even if
you retreat you will still have a good position to retreat to.
>
> =A04. Be2 =A0c6
>
> =A0 -- help bot
|
| |
Date: 19 Oct 2008 10:03:43
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 29, 10:53=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
> way to recover that pawn.
>
> Should I remove this opening:
>
> 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
e4 d5
e x d5
Q x d5
Nc3
This would be the correct line where the queen would either have to
retreat or play Q a5 upon which you would take out your black bishop
to bd2.
Responding with d5 should not be played unless you really understand
the complications it can end in.
The greatest chess player in history Kasparov played that line against
Anand. While Kasparov has beaten Anand in classical chess quite a few
times and I'm sure has a good record against Anand the game where he
played this line against Anand (as black with d5 and then Q x d5, and
Anand responded with Nc3 Kasparov retreated all the way back to d8),
Kasparov lost that game. Probably because as black you are already a
tempo behind and retreating all the way back to d8 made him two tempos
behind. Of course that may not be the only reason Kasparov lost but it
certainly handed the initiative (which as white was already with
Anand) and made it little more.
>
> Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?
>
> Please suggest if this opening should be removed from GetClub
> database?
>
> Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--=AD-----
> help bot: (White)
> master: (Black)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM27976&game=
=3DChess
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--=AD-----
>
> White -- Black
> (help bot) -- (master)
>
> 1. e2-e4{12} d7-d5{0}
> 2. e4xd5{4} Ng8-f6{0}
> 3. Bf1-b5{28} Bc8-d7{898}
> 4. Bb5-c4{34} b7-b5{366}
> 5. Bc4-b3{40} Bd7-f5{514}
> 6. Qd1-e2{58} a7-a6{528}
> 7. a2-a4{138} b5-b4{408}
> 8. c2-c4{80} b4-c3{398}
> 9. Nb1-c3{22} g7-g6{438}
> 10. Ng1-f3{86} Bf8-h6{2450}
> 11. Ke1-g1{76} Bh6-f4{1548}
> 12. Rf1-e1{64} Bf4-d6{602}
> 13. d2-d3{62} h7-h5{612}
> 14. Bc1-g5{76} Nb8-d7{472}
> 15. Bb3-c4{56} Ke8-g8{574}
> 16. h2-h3{56} Nd7-b6{1156}
> 17. a4-a5{54} Nb6-c4{558}
> 18. d3-c4{28} c7-c5{640}
> 19. d5-c6{90} Qd8-b8{678}
> 20. Nc3-d5{66} Nf6-d5{366}
> 21. c4-d5{98} Qb8-b3{762}
> 22. Re1-d1{110} Rf8-b8{688}
> 23. Bg5-e3{226} Qb3-b2{664}
> 24. Qe2-b2{60} Rb8-b2{674}
> 25. Nf3-d2{1464} Rb2-b5{840}
> 26. Nd2-c4{102} Bf5-e4{346}
> 27. Nc4-b6{64} Ra8-b8{870}
> 28. f2-f3{144} Be4-f5{996}
> 29. g2-g4{12} h5-g4{420}
> 30. h3-g4{2094} Bf5-c8{2662}
> 31. Rd1-b1{154} Rb5-b1{664}
> 32. Ra1-b1{178} f7-f6{558}
> 33. Rb1-d1{258} g6-g5{1106}
> 34. Kg1-f2{56} Kg8-h7{1966}
> 35. Rd1-c1{102} Bd6-c7{814}
> 36. Be3-c5{96} Kh7-g7{980}
> 37. Nb6-c8{56} Rb8-c8{386}
> 38. Bc5-e7{30} Kg7-f7{746}
> 39. Be7-b4{86} Bc7-f4{1038}
> 40. Rc1-c4{40} Bf4-e5{640}
> 41. d5-d6{504} Kf7-e6{928}
> 42. d6-d7{102} Rc8-h8{1322}
> 43. Kf2-e3{94} Be5-f4{1240}
> 44. Rc4-f4{106} g5-f4{844}
> 45. Ke3-f4{70} Rh8-b8{1300}
> 46. Bb4-c5{32} Rb8-g8{576}
> 47. Bc5-b6{66} Ke6-e7{494}
> 48. Qd7-d8{Q}{42} Rg8-d8{392}
> 49. Bb6-d8{26} Ke7-d8{770}
> 50. Kf4-f5{20} Kd8-c7{2038}
> 51. Kf5-f6{8} Kc7-d6{1312}
> 52. g4-g5{28} Kd6-c6{886}
> 53. g5-g6{6} Kc6-b5{678}
> 54. g6-g7{10} Kb5-a5{882}
> 55. Qg7-g8{Q}{12} Ka5-b5{1130}
> 56. Kf6-e5{20} Kb5-b6{1776}
> 57. Ke5-d5{28} Kb6-c7{30}
> 58. Qg8-e6{32} Kc7-b7{16}
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--=AD-----
> =A0help bot: (White)
> master: (Black)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM27976&game=
=3DChess
>
> Since Help Bot was a pawn up in the opening he easily get the Queen
> after exchanging all the pieces.
>
> Despite being Master Level it lost as it played a wrong opening.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 19 Oct 2008 01:40:16
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
> Once again, we see that Sanny is focused
> on programming in specific opening moves
> and tweaking bonuses and penalties, when
> his real problem lies in the simple arithmetic
> of tactical melees. I'm beating his "Master"
> level like carrots, game after game.
>
> --helpbot
Where are you? Are you alright? Many days have passed and you have not
played at GetClub Chess.
After you left playing the GetClub game was improved a lot.
Come back to google groups and see how GetClub beat "Sam Sloan"
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 07:14:02
From:
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 2, 7:18=A0am, Larry Tapper <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 29, 6:09=A0am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 29, 2:51=A0am, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> > > > Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was=
no
> > > > way to recover that pawn.
>
> > > > Should I remove this opening:
>
> > > > 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> > > > 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> > > > Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
>
> > I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
> > when nobody else was playing it.
>
> Sam,
>
> You must have known Edgar McCormick, the upstate master who played
> this line regularly in the 60s. If I recall correctly, he won a few NY
> state open championships. I've been playing the Nf6 Scandinavian
> myself since the early 70s.
>
>
>
> > The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
> > Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
> > Nxd5.
>
> > However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
> > tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
> > loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
>
> Bronstein suggested 5...Bc8!? to avoid leaving the bishop as a target.
> The bishop has done his job because 5. f3 does more harm than good.
> This is the line I play,
>
> Larry T.
On the few occasions I've had to face the Scandinavian Gambit, I got
good results with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.d4!, and after 4...cxd5
the game has turned into a Caro-Kann, Panov-Botvinnik variation. The
opponents I faced were not prepared for that, and even less for when I
played 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.c5, entering the Gunderam variation.
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 06:39:02
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 2, 7:18=A0am, Larry Tapper <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 29, 6:09=A0am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 29, 2:51=A0am, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> > > > Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was=
no
> > > > way to recover that pawn.
>
> > > > Should I remove this opening:
>
> > > > 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> > > > 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> > > > Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
>
> > I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
> > when nobody else was playing it.
>
> Sam,
>
> You must have known Edgar McCormick, the upstate master who played
> this line regularly in the 60s. If I recall correctly, he won a few NY
> state open championships. I've been playing the Nf6 Scandinavian
> myself since the early 70s.
>
>
>
> > The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
> > Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
> > Nxd5.
>
> > However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
> > tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
> > loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
>
> Bronstein suggested 5...Bc8!? to avoid leaving the bishop as a target.
> The bishop has done his job because 5. f3 does more harm than good.
> This is the line I play,
>
> Larry T.
Right. I was aware of this but I never played it.
I did not know that McCormick played it either.
I found this line in an issue of Shakhmaty v SSR in 1962. I was still
living in my parents house in Lynchbrug Virginia. I prepared this line
for the 1962 North Carolina Open but nobody played 1.e4 against me.
I started playing it when I got to Berkeley in the Fall of 1962. I had
very good results with it and my rating went straight up. The first
time in my life that I ever beat a master was with this line. Here is
the game that caused me to stop playing it:
[Event "Oakland (USA)"]
[Site "Oakland (USA)"]
[Date "1963.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Haines,William"]
[Black "Sloan,Sam"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01"]
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3 Bf5 6.g4 Bc8 7.a4 a6
8.g5 Nh5 9.Nc3 Bf5 10.d3 Qd6 11.Nge2 Nd7 12.Be3 Nb6 13.Nd4 g6
14.a5 Qe5 15.Nxf5 gxf5 16.Qe2 Nxc4 17.dxc4 f4 18.Bc5 Qxg5
19.O-O-O O-O-O 20.Rhg1 Qh4 21.Rg4 Qh3 22.Bd4 f6 23.c5 c6 24.Qe6+
Kc7 25.d6+ exd6 26.cxd6+ Kb8 27.Bxf6 Nxf6 28.Qxf6 Bh6 29.Rh4 Bg7
30.Qxd8+ Rxd8 31.Rxh3 1-0
However, I just looked through my old games and discovered that I
played it for a while again in 1969. Again I had good results. I beat
Michael Shahade with this line. Here is the game I beat John Peters
with this line.
[Event "Continental Amateur Championsh"]
[Site "Continental Amateur Champions"]
[Date "1969.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Peters,John A (USA)"]
[Black "Sloan,Sam"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B01"]
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb6 5.Nf3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.O-O
O-O 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Na5 10.c5 Bxc3 11.cxb6 Bg7 12.bxc7 Qxc7 13.Qa4
Bd7 14.Qh4 b6 15.Bh6 Qd6 16.Ng5 f6 17.Nxh7 Rf7 18.Bf4 Qb4 19.Bd3
Bf5 20.Bxf5 gxf5 21.a3 Qxb2 22.Rfb1 Qe2 23.Rb4 Qg4 0-1
Looking through my results, it seems that I won almost every game with
black with this line. I cannot imagine why I stopped playing it.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 05:25:21
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 2, 7:18=A0am, Larry Tapper <[email protected] > wrote:
> > The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
> > Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
> > Nxd5.
>
> > However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
> > tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
> > loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
That is a terrible move.
> Bronstein suggested 5...Bc8!? to avoid leaving the bishop as a target.
> The bishop has done his job because 5. f3 does more harm than good.
> This is the line I play,
I am allowing Rybka to look over this a bit
(not ultra-deep), and surprisingly, she likes
GetClub's 4. ...b5 move.
In some cases (as in Mr. Sloan's awful
line above), Rybka happily gambits a pawn
with ...c6 and ...Nxc6, while in other cases,
she fianchettoes Black's KB, leaving the
question of the d5 pawn to be dealt with
later. White is hard pressed to both hold
the extra pawn and come out on top if
Black chooses to make it a gambit.
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 04:18:20
From: Larry Tapper
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 29, 6:09=A0am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 29, 2:51=A0am, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> > > Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was n=
o
> > > way to recover that pawn.
>
> > > Should I remove this opening:
>
> > > 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> > > 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> > > Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
>
> I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
> when nobody else was playing it.
Sam,
You must have known Edgar McCormick, the upstate master who played
this line regularly in the 60s. If I recall correctly, he won a few NY
state open championships. I've been playing the Nf6 Scandinavian
myself since the early 70s.
>
> The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
> Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
> Nxd5.
>
> However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
> tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
> loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
Bronstein suggested 5...Bc8!? to avoid leaving the bishop as a target.
The bishop has done his job because 5. f3 does more harm than good.
This is the line I play,
Larry T.
>
> I would not recommend this line for a computer program. I think that
> the ideas behind this opening would be too difficult for a computer.
>
> Sam Sloan
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 03:28:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 2, 5:26=A0am, SBD <[email protected] > wrote:
> > =A0 It probably doesn't matter, but there are some
> > lines where Queen moves are not bad, such
> > as in regaining the QB-pawn in the Queen's
> > Gambit, Reti, or Catalan, for instance.
>
> I wonder if 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd 3. Nf3 e5 4. Nxe5?? occurs, if the
> program would win the knight with Qa5+ or consider it too many queen
> moves?
In this extreme case, the penalty for an early
Queen sortie would have to be approximately
three points or more to negate the win of a
Knight, but then who can say whether the GC
program would even spot the fork... . ; >D
Believe it or not, I had a tournament game in
which this possibility came up; my opponent
-- a USCF Expert -- refrained from playing the
horrific ...e5, but after the game he wanted to
know how I would have responded if he had.
Looking at the position very quickly, I snapped
up the e-pawn and he (quite angry with himself
for overestimating me) immediately displayed
the Queen fork; I suppose it had been a long,
tough game in which he barely squeaked out
a victory.
This underlines the vast chasm which exists
between the "theoreticians" -- who memorize
openings move by move -- and those of us
who for one reason or another, play lines we
don't understand, in an offhand manner. At
any rate, as embarrassing as this sort of thing
may be, it is comforting to watch what often
happens to grandmasters once they come to
the end of their rote play, somewhere around
move 25 or so.
In a recent game against GetClub, I nabbed
a pawn and stubbornly refused to let go, and
Sanny's monstrosity could have made a nice
gambit out of it (but instead was chopped like
carrots), somewhat similar to a Goring
Gambit or something like that.
Once again, we see that Sanny is focused
on programming in specific opening moves
and tweaking bonuses and penalties, when
his real problem lies in the simple arithmetic
of tactical melees. I'm beating his "Master"
level like carrots, game after game.
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 02 Oct 2008 02:26:56
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 1, 9:04=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> =A0 It probably doesn't matter, but there are some
> lines where Queen moves are not bad, such
> as in regaining the QB-pawn in the Queen's
> Gambit, Reti, or Catalan, for instance.
I wonder if 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd 3. Nf3 e5 4. Nxe5?? occurs, if the
program would win the knight with Qa5+ or consider it too many queen
moves?
|
| |
Date: 01 Oct 2008 19:04:27
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Oct 1, 4:07=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > =A0 One interesting ploy would be to have the program
> > play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
> > opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
> > duffer. =A0 Then of course you begin playing decent-
> > looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
> > attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
> > moves. =A0For instance:
>
> > =A01. e4 =A0d5
>
> > =A02. ed =A0Qxd5
>
> > =A03. Nc3 =A0Qe5+
>
> > =A04. Be2 =A0c6
>
> I have given heavy penalty for any Queen move. Otherwise GetClub keeps
> playing its Queen from here and there till it gets trapped by pawns.
It probably doesn't matter, but there are some
lines where Queen moves are not bad, such
as in regaining the QB-pawn in the Queen's
Gambit, Reti, or Catalan, for instance. If White
fianchettoes his KB, the c-pawn is sometimes
regained via N-e5, Nxc4; but sometimes it is
regained by Q-a4+ and Qxc4. Penalizing all
early Queen moves heavily means the GC
program will not play such lines correctly, or
may even regard Black's taking on c4 as
equivalent to winning a pawn.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Oct 2008 01:07:46
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
> =A0 One interesting ploy would be to have the program
> play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
> opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
> duffer. =A0 Then of course you begin playing decent-
> looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
> attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
> moves. =A0For instance:
>
> =A01. e4 =A0d5
>
> =A02. ed =A0Qxd5
>
> =A03. Nc3 =A0Qe5+
>
> =A04. Be2 =A0c6
I have given heavy penalty for any Queen move. Otherwise GetClub keeps
playing its Queen from here and there till it gets trapped by pawns.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 Sep 2008 01:37:54
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 30, 4:03=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > =A0 This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavia=
n
> > Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
> > and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
> > variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
> > variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
> > pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
> > (Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).
>
> I have added the new opening So GetClub will play safe moves till
> first 6 moves.
One interesting ploy would be to have the program
play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
duffer. Then of course you begin playing decent-
looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
moves. For instance:
1. e4 d5
2. ed Qxd5
3. Nc3 Qe5+
4. Be2 c6
-- help bot
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Date: 30 Sep 2008 01:32:32
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 30, 4:01=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > =A0 Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
> > lost around three thousand tempi, and his
> > later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.
> It played those move to bring Bishop in the center.
>
> What were the moves it should have played otherwise?
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM27976&game=3DChess
Well, I've been looking at a lot of other games since
then, so I no longer have a crystal-clear picture of
this one. But generally speaking, you can't spend
that many moves to develop just one piece in the
opening.
It is customary to play ...Bg7 after the move ...g6
(although there may be rare exceptions where the
Bishop is better placed on h6).
Just remember that if Black is taking four moves
to develop one piece, White may very well get his
pieces developed and castle and while Black then
tries to prepare to castle, White can launch an
attack. Many of my games show the GetClub
program delaying castling... almost as if it got a
bonus for waiting as long as possible.
In this game, I had an opportunity to grab the e7
pawn with my Bishop, winning. I declined because
of the reply ...Re8, pinning my Bishop to my Queen;
but looking deeper, Rybka sees that after that I can
play Nd4, and the White Queen has no "safe"
square to flee-- dark squares allow me to reply
Bxd6!, when both Queens will be under attack. I
had some doubts as to the win-ability of this Rook
ending, but sure enough, White clearly prevails. I
guess when you're a 3000+ rated computer, this
sort of deep calculation is as easy as chopping
carrots.
-- help bot
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Date: 30 Sep 2008 01:03:53
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
> =A0 This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavian
> Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
> and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
> variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
> variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
> pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
> (Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).
I have added the new opening So GetClub will play safe moves till
first 6 moves.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 Sep 2008 01:01:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
> =A0 Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
> lost around three thousand tempi, and his
> later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.
It played those move to bring Bishop in the center.
What were the moves it should have played otherwise?
Today Zebediah too win the Master Level. by getting a Pawn extra in
opening. Now I have taught 2 openings So that in future it knows what
to play in such cases.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 29 Sep 2008 06:53:12
From:
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 29, 1:53=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
> way to recover that pawn.
That is clearly not true; as you yourself note, the pawn can be
immediately recovered by 2...Qxd5.
> Should I remove this opening:
>
> 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
>
> Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?
This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavian
Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
(Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).
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Date: 29 Sep 2008 03:59:56
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 29, 6:09=A0am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
> when nobody else was playing it.
>
> The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
> Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
> Nxd5.
>
> However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
> tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
> loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
>
> I would not recommend this line for a computer program. I think that
> the ideas behind this opening would be too difficult for a computer.
Many years ago, I ran up against this line while
playing blitz chess against a fellow named Phil
Degan. He played a number of very annoying
hyper-modern defenses like this one, poking
holes in my mishandling of certain positions...
(but I was a bit quicker and more alert, and won,
more often than not).
Now that Mr. Sloan no longer plays this line, is
he able to divulge his source-- perhaps an old
book by Weaver Adams or Ken Smith, a Black
to Play and Win type pamphlet?
In my game against GetClub's Master level,
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM27976&game=3DChess
I over-reached by attempting to hold the extra
pawn with 8. c4; after a reply such as ...c6,
we get a classic example of "boy, do I look
dumb, and greedy".
Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
lost around three thousand tempi, and his
later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.
Surprisingly, Rybka says I could have safely
captured a pawn with 23. Bxe7!! -- exploiting
the fact that Black's Queen is "exposed" such
that the obvious pin, 23. ...Re8 does not quite
work. Of course, it takes all of 0.03 seconds
for Rybka to calculate all of the possibilities,
while I might require just a tad longer.
-- help bot
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Date: 29 Sep 2008 03:09:38
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On Sep 29, 2:51=A0am, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> > Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
> > way to recover that pawn.
>
> > Should I remove this opening:
>
> > 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> > 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> > Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
>
I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
when nobody else was playing it.
The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
Nxd5.
However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.
I would not recommend this line for a computer program. I think that
the ideas behind this opening would be too difficult for a computer.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 28 Sep 2008 23:51:50
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot
|
On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5
>
> Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
> way to recover that pawn.
>
> Should I remove this opening:
>
> 1. e2-e4 d7-d5
> 2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6
>
> Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?
Ray Keene, in his excellent " Opening Repertoire for the attacking
player " roundly condems this defense as inferior, and you would do
well to eliminate it from getclub's repertoire.
>
> Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?
>
> Please suggest if this opening should be removed from GetClub
> database?
>
Why not go the whole length and program the whole of " Opening
repertoire for the attacking player " into getclub, or maybe some of
the repertoire choices of renowned theoretician Eric Schiller ?
We would then have Opening play worthy of your program, and maybe you
can start posting questions about the finer points of getclub's
strategical play.
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