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Main
Date: 21 Mar 2007 03:18:36
From: Sanny
Subject: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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Below is the game between Zebediah and Master Level
Zebediah: Black
Master: White
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
1. d4 Nf6
2.c4 e6
3.Nc3 Bb4
4.a3 Bxc3
5.b2xc3 c5
6.d4xc5 Qa5
Here Master Level (White) is a Pawn plus, Still it will loose
7.Bb2 0-0
8.Nf3 Na6
And here starts the killings from Zebediah.
9. Qd4 Nxc5
10. Rd1 Ne4
11. Qe3 Na4
12. Ba1 Nxc3
And now Black is pawn up.
13.Bxc3 Nxc3
14. Qd2 Qxa3
One more Pawn gone. Black is 2 pawn up.
15. Qd6 Qb2
16. Ne4 Qxf8 {No other move left for white}
Now white is Queen down for a Rook.
17. Kxf8 Be2 {Saving Mate.}
Complete Recorded Game:
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM6727&game=Chess
It looks like White played silly but it was Master Level which does
long calculations. Was there a way by which White could have avoided
such traps.
In the begiining White was a pawn up, But in just next 8 moves
zebediah ruined whites advantages. Was there a way for Master Level to
avoid this loss?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 10:02:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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On 22, 9:16 pm, Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On my browser the Beginner Level goes till 7-8 ply {each players move}
> > and makes move in 10 seconds.
>
> You're either lying or you're somehow having a completely different
> experience with your program than anyone else.
On average Beginner Level sees till 6 ply
But sometimes I have seen it go upto 8th ply also.
Play a game with Beginner Level
http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
I am sure you will see atleast 1-2 moves reaching 7-8 ply.
Well my Computer is P-IV 2.5 GHz and this is a comman configuration
these days.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 23:45:30
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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On 22, 5:12 am, Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Below is the game between Zebediah and Master Level
>
> > Zebediah: Black
> > Master: White
>
> > Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> > 1. d4 Nf6
> > 2.c4 e6
> > 3.Nc3 Bb4
> > 4.a3 Bxc3
> > 5.b2xc3 c5
> > 6.d4xc5 Qa5
> > Here Master Level (White) is a Pawn plus, Still it will loose
>
> Well, sure. Because, for starters, it can't keep it's extra pawn.
>
> Secondly, after it drops one pawn, the other two will become very weak.
>
> Thirdly, black is ahead in development.
>
> Fourth, white has abandoned the center.
>
> > 7.Bb2 0-0
>
> Sannybot puts the bishop on a square from which it will have a hard time
> achieving any activity.
>
> > 8.Nf3 Na6
>
> > And here starts the killings from Zebediah.
>
> > 9. Qd4 Nxc5
> > 10. Rd1 Ne4
>
> Sannybot is neglecting it's development. It's far more important to get
> the king to safety than to activate the queen rook. Here, also, it
> displays an inability to see more than a few moves ahead. The rook never
> does anything on d1, and Sannyboy is oblivious to the threat to c3.
>
> Incidentally, you're struggling with basic notation here. 10. ... Ne4 is
> ambiguous. Please learn properchessnotation.
>
> > 11. Qe3 Na4
> > 12. Ba1 Nxc3
>
> > And now Black is pawn up.
>
> 12. ... Nxc3 is also ambigous.
>
> > 13.Bxc3 Nxc3
> > 14. Qd2 Qxa3
>
> > One more Pawn gone. Black is 2 pawn up.
>
> More important than the pawns, however, is the fact that white is
> completely undeveloped, and his kind is exposed. unsurprisingly, your
> program misses even simple threats and makes a superficially aggressive
> move.
>
> > 15. Qd6 Qb2
> > 16. Ne4 Qxf8 {No other move left for white}
>
> And here your ability to dochessnotation completely falls apart.
>
> The actual game continues 16. d3 Ne4 17.Qxf8+.
>
> > Now white is Queen down for a Rook.
>
> > 17. Kxf8 Be2 {Saving Mate.}
> > It looks like White played silly but it was Master Level which does
> > long calculations. Was there a way by which White could have avoided
> > such traps.
>
> This is the fundamental problem. You seem to think that because Master
> Level takes a long time to think, it is looking far ahead. Clearly, that
> is not the case.
>
> Your program does not appear to be seeing more than 4 ply or so ahead,
> if that. A program like Crafty, on my five-year-old computer, sees 4 ply
> ahead in under a third of a second.
>
> You need to figure out that your program is doing with all the time it
> takes to make its moves, and fix it so that it's seeing further ahead.
>
> All this chatter coming from you about making the program
> stronger-but-slower or faster-but-weaker misses the point. Your program
> is not making effective use of the time it has, and the result is
> abysmal play. It the amount of time your program usually takes at even
> intermediate level, it should be seeing at least 12, possibly as many as
> 15 ply ahead. It's not.
>
> Figure out why, and you'll have a program that doesn't stink.
What do you mean by a ply: Are you considering both Black & White
moves or only one players move.
On my browser the Beginner Level goes till 7-8 ply {each players move}
and makes move in 10 seconds.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 16:16:25
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On my browser the Beginner Level goes till 7-8 ply {each players move}
> and makes move in 10 seconds.
You're either lying or you're somehow having a completely different
experience with your program than anyone else.
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 13:22:36
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> What do you mean by a ply: Are you considering both Black & White
> moves or only one players move.
A ply is a move by either Black or White. So twelve ply is six moves
by White and six by Black.
> On my browser the Beginner Level goes till 7-8 ply {each players move}
> and makes move in 10 seconds.
I'm sorry but I just don't believe you. Nobody else is getting
performance anything like that from your program.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Strange Book (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ romantic novel but it's totally weird!
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 17:12:11
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Below is the game between Zebediah and Master Level
>
> Zebediah: Black
> Master: White
>
> Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> 1. d4 Nf6
> 2.c4 e6
> 3.Nc3 Bb4
> 4.a3 Bxc3
> 5.b2xc3 c5
> 6.d4xc5 Qa5
> Here Master Level (White) is a Pawn plus, Still it will loose
Well, sure. Because, for starters, it can't keep it's extra pawn.
Secondly, after it drops one pawn, the other two will become very weak.
Thirdly, black is ahead in development.
Fourth, white has abandoned the center.
> 7.Bb2 0-0
Sannybot puts the bishop on a square from which it will have a hard time
achieving any activity.
> 8.Nf3 Na6
>
> And here starts the killings from Zebediah.
>
> 9. Qd4 Nxc5
> 10. Rd1 Ne4
Sannybot is neglecting it's development. It's far more important to get
the king to safety than to activate the queen rook. Here, also, it
displays an inability to see more than a few moves ahead. The rook never
does anything on d1, and Sannyboy is oblivious to the threat to c3.
Incidentally, you're struggling with basic notation here. 10. ... Ne4 is
ambiguous. Please learn proper chess notation.
> 11. Qe3 Na4
> 12. Ba1 Nxc3
>
> And now Black is pawn up.
12. ... Nxc3 is also ambigous.
> 13.Bxc3 Nxc3
> 14. Qd2 Qxa3
>
> One more Pawn gone. Black is 2 pawn up.
More important than the pawns, however, is the fact that white is
completely undeveloped, and his kind is exposed. unsurprisingly, your
program misses even simple threats and makes a superficially aggressive
move.
> 15. Qd6 Qb2
> 16. Ne4 Qxf8 {No other move left for white}
And here your ability to do chess notation completely falls apart.
The actual game continues 16. d3 Ne4 17.Qxf8+.
> Now white is Queen down for a Rook.
>
> 17. Kxf8 Be2 {Saving Mate.}
> It looks like White played silly but it was Master Level which does
> long calculations. Was there a way by which White could have avoided
> such traps.
This is the fundamental problem. You seem to think that because Master
Level takes a long time to think, it is looking far ahead. Clearly, that
is not the case.
Your program does not appear to be seeing more than 4 ply or so ahead,
if that. A program like Crafty, on my five-year-old computer, sees 4 ply
ahead in under a third of a second.
You need to figure out that your program is doing with all the time it
takes to make its moves, and fix it so that it's seeing further ahead.
All this chatter coming from you about making the program
stronger-but-slower or faster-but-weaker misses the point. Your program
is not making effective use of the time it has, and the result is
abysmal play. It the amount of time your program usually takes at even
intermediate level, it should be seeing at least 12, possibly as many as
15 ply ahead. It's not.
Figure out why, and you'll have a program that doesn't stink.
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 13:31:43
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Zebediah vs Master Level, Please Analyze.
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Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 1. d4 Nf6
>> 2.c4 e6
>> 3.Nc3 Bb4
>> 4.a3 Bxc3
>> 5.b2xc3 c5
>> 6.d4xc5
>
> Well, sure. Because, for starters, it can't keep it's extra pawn.
Hehe. I used to love playing that position as Black against the
Kasparov's Gambit computer program about fifteen years ago. It would
also get into a terrible mess playing the black side of the closed
Lopez.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Generic Ghost (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ haunting spirit but it's just like
all the others!
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