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Main
Date: 09 Sep 2005 11:48:57
From: Martin
Subject: comments please
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This game I lost yesterday for the club competition. Both my opponent and me
are rated around 1850. I didn't have time to analyse it with a program yet,
but I'm looking for some general comments. On move 26 I refused a draw
because I thought I had good attacking chances. Thanks in advance for taking
the time to look at it...
1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7. O-O-O Qa5
8. f4
b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14. Qe6
Qc7
15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3 Rxc2+ 20. Kb1 b3
21.
axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8 27.
Rxh7
Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
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Date: 17 Sep 2005 13:18:19
From: Martin
Subject: Re: comments please
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Thanks for the comments and some very interesting lines.
I am well aware of the fact that I am not (and never will be) a grandmaster,
so there's no need for Bark to tell me I suck. I already know that... ;-)
Both sacs Nxd6 and later on Nf3 were played intentionally. I did see Nc7 but
opted for the sac because I thought it would give me sufficient chances. And
it should have, although I didn't see the chances later on in the game.
tin.
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Date: 19 Sep 2005 01:35:17
From: Bark!
Subject: Re: comments please
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Na njuzima:[email protected],
tin <[email protected] > mukotrpnim radom izna�e ovu umotvorinu:
> Thanks for the comments and some very interesting lines.
>
> I am well aware of the fact that I am not (and never will be) a
> grandmaster, so there's no need for Bark to tell me I suck. I already
> know that... ;-)
>
> Both sacs Nxd6 and later on Nf3 were played intentionally. I did see
> Nc7 but opted for the sac because I thought it would give me
> sufficient chances. And it should have, although I didn't see the
> chances later on in the game.
>
> tin.
Sorry, I was in the mood. And I didn't say that you suck but that you both
suck. :) I'm not much better than you, I'm around 2000. 3 years ago I was
1300.
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Date: 13 Sep 2005 22:16:04
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: comments please
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Let's see the game:
I prefer to start by the end.
> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7. O-O-O Qa5
> 8. f4 b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7
> 14. Qe6 Qc7 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3
> Rxc2 20. Kb1 b3 21.axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5
> Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8 27.Rxh7 Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+
> 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
- I agree that 29.Nc6 can be bad and 29.Qg8 can be "better", ... but it
allow black to reach an ending whish seems won after the line "Bark"
suggested 29.Qg8 Kd7 30.Qe6 Kd8 31.Nc6 Qxc6!.
After 29.Nc6 black has two nices combinations which wins: the move
played in the game 29...Nd2! followed by 30...Ra3! and also 29...Nc3!.
Other moves lead to white advantage (Here I was helped by Fritz). It's
understandable that a 1850 played did not see that nice two lines or
also did see it but prefered to take the risk.
- I agree both (Bark and Wold) that 27.Rxh7 was a mistake and draw with
27.Qh5 was the best result for white.
But I also think that ambitious players improve faster and the
difference between mistake and "to bet" it's not so clear.
- Curiously Fritz told me that 24.Qh5!! would have won.
Both 24...Kd7 25.Rhe1! and 24...Kf8 25.Nf5 Re4 26.Rhe1! Qb7 27.b4! seems
a nice conclusion (note that the Rh8 is inactive)
That shows that white attack had "resources" and it was not so bad.
To allow ...Rxe2 (as both you recriminate to white preferring 22.Qe3)
was not a mistake but a brilliant idea (or a very lucky mistake)
To give the c2 pawn with 19.Nf3 was not so bad if that previous line
wins and black can not avoid being worse after other alternatives.
- I Agree Wlod that 18...b3!! is better but I can punish black to play
18...Rc5 and 19...Rc2 because both seem "natural".
- I agree Bark that 12.Nd6 is bad and 12.Nc7 should be preferred. I did
not know if white sacrifice was an ambitious idea or He simply did not
see that 12.Nc7 was possible.
- I agree Wlod that 11...Rc8 was better and give black advantage. That
shows white 10.Bc6 was bad (as Bark wrote) but I would not punish white
to initiate the complications because it's very difficult to calculate
all and He can follow his intuition (mine said to me not to play a move
like that but it's more a matter of style)
As conclusion:
white entered in danger with 10.Bc6?,
black did not take advantage playing 11...Rb8?
white 12.Nd6? was a mistake and the attack is not enough
black allowed white to escape not playing 18...b3
19.Nf3 and 22.Qf5 were not bad
white 24.Qh5 would have won
white 27.Rxh7 was a mistake.
That mean white mad 4 mistakes (and some other inacuracies) but as I
have explained it seems that some of them are understandable and it's
needed to remember that mistakes can be seen seldom in players with
stronger rating (more in positions/games as complicated as this one).
Any comment/correction?
Antonio Torrecillas
Barcelona/Spain
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Date: 13 Sep 2005 22:20:19
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: comments please
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En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:
(Sorry for my English, ... a correction)
> (...)
> - I Agree Wlod that 18...b3!! is better but I can punish black to play
> 18...Rc5 and 19...Rc2 because both seem "natural".
.... but I can NOT punish black for playing ...
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Date: 13 Sep 2005 22:20:06
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: comments please
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En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:
(Sorry for my English, ... acorrection)
> (...)
> - I Agree Wlod that 18...b3!! is better but I can punish black to play
> 18...Rc5 and 19...Rc2 because both seem "natural".
.... but I can NOT punish black for playing ...
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Date: 13 Sep 2005 00:37:28
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)
Subject: Re: comments please
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tin wrote:
> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6
Hm, I liked 2...Nf6, but now white
can play 4.g5, e.g. 4...Ne4 5.Bf5
(with f3 threat). Now 5...d5 Nf3
gives white the great e5 square,
while 5...h6 6.gxh gxh 7.e3 Nf6
8.c4 seems to be pretty good
for white.
4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7
I like 5... Bf5 instead.
6. Qd3 c6 7. O-O-O
Black's 6... c6 shows that white's
position is not good. White king
can't be safe on neither wing (side).
> 7... Qa5 8. f4 b5
I would prefer immediate 7...b5.
The queen move 7...Qa5 seems arbitrary,
rather counterproductive. It's more flexible
to keep the queen and other pieces
**behind** the pawns.
> 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4 11. Nb5
( If 11.Bb5 then 11...Bb7 wins for black).
11... Rb8
I feel strongly that 11...Rc8 was better.
Now white should simply play 12.Nc7+
and white is fine (12...Qxc7 13.Qxa6 Rb6
14.Bxd7+ etc).
> 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14. Qe6
And we see once again that black
would be better off with his rook on c8.
> 14...Qc7
14...Rd8 would leave black Q attacking a2
(while the later Bb5 would be still possible,
and black Q would still be attacking).
It's as a rule preferable to use the weakest
pieces for defence--they are the strongest
for that purpose.
> 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5
> 18. hxg4 Rc5
White attack has fizzled out. Now black had
to play 18...b6!
> 19. Nf3 Rxc2+ 20. Kb1 b3
> 21. axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5
Why not 22.Qe3--this game does not
make an aesthetic or logical impression.
> 22... Rxe2 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4
> 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8
Draw seems to be a just outcome :-)
Black's attack, like the earlier white
attack, got nowhere. But white is
now not satisfied with 1/2:1/2.
> 27. Rxh7 Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4
White has shown a poor jugdement.
2 pawns for a piece is not a sufficient
recompensation when white king is
vulnerble and white pawns are nothing
special. White is about to worry about
his pawns b4 d5 and... gets mated:
> 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1
Or 30.Rxd2 Re1+ and mate next move.
> 30... Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
Indeed, 32.Ka2 Qb3+ 33.Ka1 Qa3 mate.
Black didn't miss his nice chance.
Perhaps black played slightly better,
while a draw would be a more precise
result. (A tiring game to follow :-)
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 12 Sep 2005 18:07:07
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)
Subject: Re: comments please
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> 1. d4 f5 2. h3
Why would one like to play 2.h3?!
when there is the straight 2.e4!
is beyond me :-)
> 2... d6
I'd prefer 2...Nf6. if you still sac 3.g4
then recapturing with the knight feels ok.
2... Nf6 is less commital. Bc8 may still
get into the game via a6 or even b7
(or it may stay on c8-h3).
Ooops, I have to run now.
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 11 Sep 2005 05:58:29
From: Bark!
Subject: Re: comments please
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Na njuzima:[email protected],
tin <[email protected] > mukotrpnim radom izna�e ovu umotvorinu:
> This game I lost yesterday for the club competition. Both my opponent
> and me are rated around 1850. I didn't have time to analyse it with a
> program yet, but I'm looking for some general comments. On move 26 I
> refused a draw because I thought I had good attacking chances. Thanks
> in advance for taking the time to look at it...
>
> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7.
> O-O-O Qa5
> 8. f4
> b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14.
> Qe6 Qc7
> 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3 Rxc2+ 20.
> Kb1 b3
> 21.
> axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+
> Ke8 27. Rxh7
> Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
You both suck. I never made so many bad moves when i was 1850. I was making
grave blunders.
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Date: 12 Sep 2005 15:33:36
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: comments please
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En/na Bark! ha escrit:
> Na njuzima:[email protected],
> tin <[email protected]> mukotrpnim radom izna�e ovu umotvorinu:
>
>
>>This game I lost yesterday for the club competition. Both my opponent
>>and me are rated around 1850. I didn't have time to analyse it with a
>>program yet, but I'm looking for some general comments. On move 26 I
>>refused a draw because I thought I had good attacking chances. Thanks
>>in advance for taking the time to look at it...
>>
>> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7.
>> O-O-O Qa5 8. f4 b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4
>> 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14.Qe6 Qc7
>> 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3 Rxc2+ 20.
>> Kb1 b3 21.axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2
>> 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8 27. Rxh7
>> Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
>
> You both suck. I never made so many bad moves when i was 1850. I was making
> grave blunders.
I don't agree, ... I did not see so much mistakes.
I said white was wrong not repeating moves, but the game seems
interesting and correctly played.
Maybe you can post here those many bad moves you saw.
AT
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Date: 12 Sep 2005 23:19:49
From: Bark!
Subject: Re: comments please
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Na njuzima:[email protected],
Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected] > mukotrpnim radom izna�e ovu
umotvorinu:
> En/na Bark! ha escrit:
>> Na njuzima:[email protected],
>> tin <[email protected]> mukotrpnim radom izna�e ovu umotvorinu:
>>
>>
>>> This game I lost yesterday for the club competition. Both my
>>> opponent and me are rated around 1850. I didn't have time to
>>> analyse it with a program yet, but I'm looking for some general
>>> comments. On move 26 I refused a draw because I thought I had good
>>> attacking chances. Thanks in advance for taking the time to look at
>>> it...
>>>
>>> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7.
>>> O-O-O Qa5 8. f4 b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4
>>> 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14.Qe6 Qc7
>>> 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3 Rxc2+
>>> 20. Kb1 b3 21.axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2
>>> 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8 27. Rxh7
>>> Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
>>
>> You both suck. I never made so many bad moves when i was 1850. I was
>> making grave blunders.
>
> I don't agree, ... I did not see so much mistakes.
> I said white was wrong not repeating moves, but the game seems
> interesting and correctly played.
>
> Maybe you can post here those many bad moves you saw.
>
> AT
8. f4 looks akward to me. I wouldnt play that. Ok, we are all different but
Bd2 looks more interesting to me because of posible discovery and btw bishop
is not doing much on g5.
10. Bxc6 is simply bad, I would play more safely. After b4 and Nb5 I think
white is unnecessarily playing dangerously.
12.Nxd6 is horible. Nc7 is much stronger because of better position after
exchange. 12.Nc7+ Qxc7 13.Qxa6 Rc8 14.Ba4 is possible continuation.
19.Nf3 Why give up c2 pawn? King safety is important and b3 is still going
to be made to open up the lines for the attack.
22. Qf5 I would play Qe3 to protect both b3 and e2 and suport c1 for rook
development.
29.Nc6 bad. In position where white king is not well protected this is bad
because its not a tempo move. I'd play Qg8 Kd7 Qe6 and I would still be
worse. And also bad as blacks play in next moves confirms its quality.
I would apreciate you rcomments Antonio.
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I agree with Antonio. Around move 25 he let you back in the game, but
you were no more than equal. He probably realized this in offering the
draw, and I think you should have taken it. And as Antonio noted, by
the time you refused the draw, your position was worsening again...
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Date: 09 Sep 2005 17:39:58
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: comments please
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En/na tin ha escrit:
> This game I lost yesterday for the club competition. Both my opponent and me
> are rated around 1850. I didn't have time to analyse it with a program yet,
> but I'm looking for some general comments. On move 26 I refused a draw
> because I thought I had good attacking chances. Thanks in advance for taking
> the time to look at it...
>
> 1. d4 f5 2. h3 d6 3. g4 Nf6 4. Nc3 fxg4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qd3 c6 7. O-O-O Qa5
> 8. f4
> b5 9. Bg2 Ba6 10. Bxc6 b4 11. Nb5 Rb8 12. Nxd6+ exd6 13. Qe3+ Be7 14. Qe6
> Qc7
> 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. d5 Bb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. hxg4 Rc5 19. Nf3 Rxc2+ 20. Kb1 b3
> 21.
> axb3 Nc5 22. Qf5 Rxe2 23. Nd4 Re3 24. b4 Ne4 25. Qh5+ Kd7 26. Qf5+ Ke8 27.
> Rxh7
> Rxh7 28. Qxh7 Qc4 29. Nc6 Nd2+ 30. Ka1 Ra3+ 31. bxa3 Qc3+ 0-1
Maybe you were too optimistical, ...
it seems you did not pay attention to black resources: 27...Nd2 or
28...Nd2 seems to give black an strong attack.
AT
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