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Main
Date: 02 Jan 2006 19:55:21
From: Douglas L Stewart
Subject: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5
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I was just annotating a game for our State's chess website and ran
across a game that started:
1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 e4 5 Ng5
Of course I was about to do 4 .. e4 ?! or 4 .. e4 ? in my annotations
with a comment about preparing the move first when Fritz showed a line
that looked interesting.
5 .. Ng4 6 Ngxe4 f5 7 f3 Nge5 and it appears Black recovers the pawn.
It appears the best line for White is to change gears and go for the
center with:
8 d4 Nxc4 9 Nf2 Bb4 10 e4 Nb6 11 a3 Be7 12 d5 Ne5 13 f4 Nf7 14 e5 O-O 15
a4 a5 16 Be3
Here of course White has a strong, strong advantage but not all of those
moves were forced. I think 9 .. d5 is worth looking at.
Anyway, I don't have any 5 .. Ng4 lines in my database so I thought this
would be fun to share. I couldn't even find 4 .. e4 in my Carsten
Hansen English book. I might try it in a Quick Chess game sometime
since I think a lot of people would trip up early with the 'hanging'
knight on g5. (i.e. 6 h3? )
---
Douglas L Stewart
[email protected]
President, Mississippi Chess Association
http://www.mcachess.org
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Date: 06 Jan 2006 16:48:56
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote:
> chasmad wrote:
> > But can't Black play differently in this line? After 5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4
> > f5 7. f3, instead of playing the rather craven 7... Ne5, Black can try
> > 7... Nxh2!? to weaken White's K-side. After 8. Rxh2 (8. Nf2 Nxf1 is
> > obviously fine for Black) fxe4 9. Nxe4 (9. fxe4?! Qg5 or 9... Bd6 with
> > strong attacking chances) d5! 10. cxd5 Qxd5, White is a pawn up, but
> > Black intends a quick deployment with ... Bf5 and ... 0-0-0.
> > Meanwhile, where is White's king going?
>
> The black king is as least as unsafe as the white king due to the open h
> file. Although White should indeed refrain from the natural looking 9.
> Nxe4 which gives up control of d5. Instead 9. Qc2 aims for h7. If
> 9...exf3? 10. Rxh7 threatening Qg6+ and Nd5 mate. If 9...d6 10. Qxe4+
> (more risky is 10. Rxh7 Rxh7 11. Qxe4+ Be6 12. Qxh7 Qe7 13. Nd5 Qf7 14.
> Bh3 0-0-0 and Black has managed to castle while White has not) 10...Qe7
> (10...Be7 11. Rxh7 Rxh7 12. Qg6+ and Black will definitely not castle)
> 11. Qxe7 and most of the danger for White's king has vanished.
You're right. 9. Qc2 seems to refute 7... Nxh2. It's back to the
"craven" 7... Ne5, I guess.
Charles
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 18:14:06
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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Peter Billam wrote:
> Peter Billam wrote:
> > I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
> > [ECO "A29"]
> > 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
> > 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
> > White can try 9. e4 (!)
> > 9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
> > and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
>
> In <[email protected]>, Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote:
> > If 12. d5 Ne7 13. e5 White has a big advantage. 11...fxe4 prevents the
> > formation of the advanced pawn center, but after 12. d5 Nb4 13. Nfxe4
> > Be7 14. a3 Na6 15. Be3 White also has a big advantage.
> >
> >> 9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
> >> 13. O-O O-O 14. Bg5 Qxd6 and White might have a slight edge...
> > After 11. e5 White has a long lasting advantage. White has a passed
> > pawn, a definitive control of the black squares, a half open file that
> > is useful and play against the black weakness d5 (the king bishop will
> > be placed on the long diagonal). If Black defends d5 with c6 this is
> > answered by a minority attack on the queenside. Black is lacking active
> > plans. If Black goes for c5 he is worsening his problem about d5. An
> > advance on the kingside (g5) will be blocked by f4.
>
> OK, agreed. This should be White's best against 5... Ng4
>
But can't Black play differently in this line? After 5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4
f5 7. f3, instead of playing the rather craven 7... Ne5, Black can try
7=2E.. Nxh2!? to weaken White's K-side. After 8. Rxh2 (8. Nf2 Nxf1 is
obviously fine for Black) fxe4 9. Nxe4 (9. fxe4?! Qg5 or 9... Bd6 with
strong attacking chances) d5! 10. cxd5 Qxd5, White is a pawn up, but
Black intends a quick deployment with ... Bf5 and ... 0-0-0.
Meanwhile, where is White's king going?
The whole line is worth a try (in speed chess at least), because if
White decides to "play it safe" on move 6 with 6. d4?! or 6. d3?!, he
runs into trouble from the reply 6 ...e3!
In the main line, I think White's 6. Ngxe4 is a little too cooperative.
An English-type move for White here would be 6. h4, and if 6 ...h6
then 7. Nh3. White could also try 6. f4, with the idea 6... exf3 7.
Nxf3, or 6...f5 7. Bh3!? Nh6 (anything else?) 8. d3, a sample line
being 8... exd3 9. exd3 Bc5!? (9... g6 10. Be3 and d4 with central
control) 10. Qh5+ Kf8 11. Bxf5!? Nd4 (11... Qe7+ 12. Be4) 12. Nxh7+
with great complications. A computer could probably figure it out.
Charles
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 14:49:45
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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chasmad wrote:
> But can't Black play differently in this line? After 5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4
> f5 7. f3, instead of playing the rather craven 7... Ne5, Black can try
> 7... Nxh2!? to weaken White's K-side. After 8. Rxh2 (8. Nf2 Nxf1 is
> obviously fine for Black) fxe4 9. Nxe4 (9. fxe4?! Qg5 or 9... Bd6 with
> strong attacking chances) d5! 10. cxd5 Qxd5, White is a pawn up, but
> Black intends a quick deployment with ... Bf5 and ... 0-0-0.
> Meanwhile, where is White's king going?
The black king is as least as unsafe as the white king due to the open h
file. Although White should indeed refrain from the natural looking 9.
Nxe4 which gives up control of d5. Instead 9. Qc2 aims for h7. If
9...exf3? 10. Rxh7 threatening Qg6+ and Nd5 mate. If 9...d6 10. Qxe4+
(more risky is 10. Rxh7 Rxh7 11. Qxe4+ Be6 12. Qxh7 Qe7 13. Nd5 Qf7 14.
Bh3 0-0-0 and Black has managed to castle while White has not) 10...Qe7
(10...Be7 11. Rxh7 Rxh7 12. Qg6+ and Black will definitely not castle)
11. Qxe7 and most of the danger for White's king has vanished.
Black has other options on the 9th move but in the end White will
capture e4 and maintain control of d5. 9...Qg5 10. Qxe4+ Kd8 11. g4
should be safe for White, 9...Qe7 10. Rh4!? Nb4 11. Qb3 Kd8 12. Nxe4
with control of d5.
> The whole line is worth a try (in speed chess at least), because if
> White decides to "play it safe" on move 6 with 6. d4?! or 6. d3?!, he
> runs into trouble from the reply 6 ...e3!
>
> In the main line, I think White's 6. Ngxe4 is a little too cooperative.
> An English-type move for White here would be 6. h4, and if 6 ...h6
> then 7. Nh3.
Or 7. Ngxe4. 7...f5 8. Bh3 d6 9. Bxg4 fxg4 10. d3 or d4. White has a
solid pawn more although I personally would regret having to trade that
bishop. On the plus side the position looks safe with not much
complications. If 6...f5 7. Bh3 with the threat Ngxe4.
If White delays capturing at e4 Black has the chance to play e3,
compacting the White pawns. I don't think Black has much after 6. h4 e3
7. dxe3 Bb4 8. Bd2 but it might be a bit better than the other lines.
> White could also try 6. f4, with the idea 6... exf3 7.
> Nxf3,
I think Black doesn't have much difficulties here and he keeps his pawn.
E. g. 7...Bc5!? 8. e3 (8. d4? Nxd4! 9. Nxd4 Qf6 10. Nf3 Bf2+ 11. Ke2
Ne3! 12. Qb3 Qd6+ 13. Nd5 c6 and Black regains his material in a very
good position) 8...0-0 9. d4 Bb4 and the white pawn center looks a bit
loose.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 06 Jan 2006 11:00:44
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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After [ECO "A29"]
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3
chasmad wrote:
> But can't Black play differently in this line? After 5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4
> f5 7. f3, instead of playing the rather craven 7... Ne5, Black can try
> 7... Nxh2!? to weaken White's K-side. After 8. Rxh2 (8. Nf2 Nxf1 is
> obviously fine for Black) fxe4 9. Nxe4 (9. fxe4?! Qg5 or 9... Bd6 with
> strong attacking chances) d5! 10. cxd5 Qxd5, White is a pawn up, but
> Black intends a quick deployment with ... Bf5 and ... 0-0-0.
> Meanwhile, where is White's king going?
In <[email protected] >, Claus-J�rgen Heigl wrote:
> The black king is as least as unsafe as the white king due to the open h
> file. Although White should indeed refrain from the natural looking 9.
> Nxe4 which gives up control of d5. Instead 9. Qc2 aims for h7. If
> 9...exf3? 10. Rxh7 threatening Qg6+ and Nd5 mate. If 9...d6 10. Qxe4+
> (more risky is 10. Rxh7 Rxh7 11. Qxe4+ Be6 12. Qxh7 Qe7 13. Nd5 Qf7 14.
> Bh3 0-0-0 and Black has managed to castle while White has not) 10...Qe7
> (10...Be7 11. Rxh7 Rxh7 12. Qg6+ and Black will definitely not castle)
> 11. Qxe7 and most of the danger for White's king has vanished.
>
> Black has other options on the 9th move but in the end White will
> capture e4 and maintain control of d5. 9...Qg5 10. Qxe4+ Kd8 11. g4
> should be safe for White, 9...Qe7 10. Rh4!? Nb4 11. Qb3 Kd8 12. Nxe4
> with control of d5.
After [ECO "A29"]
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3
Nxh2 8. Rxh2 fxe4 9. Qc2 (!) Qe7
then I prefer 10. Nd5 because after a long almost-forced sequence
10. Nd5 Nb4 11. Nxb4 Qxb4 12. Rxh7 Rxh7 13. Qxe4+ Kd8
14. Qxh7 Qxc4 15. d3 Qb4+ 15. Bd2 Qe7 16. Qh5
Black is in big trouble; $18 at least, perhaps as much as $20
chasmad wrote:
> The whole line is worth a try (in speed chess at least), because if
> White decides to "play it safe" on move 6 with 6. d4?! or 6. d3?!, he
> runs into trouble from the reply 6 ...e3!
The exciting thing about 5... Ng4 is that it's a very early departure
in a very big main-line and gives rise to sharp unusual positions.
But it looks like the 4.g3 English can survive...
Regards, Peter
--
TAS/DPIWE/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
And how sweet a story it is, when you hear Charley Parker tell it
- Kerouac, Mexico City Blues
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Date: 03 Jan 2006 23:59:04
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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This is an example of the many sound opening moves that computers find
easily but humans never did.
It's why chess is in no danger of reaching a "draw death" anytime soon.
Even the best players in the world can fuck up by move five or ten, and lose
by move twenty-five. The computers do it the way Morphy used to, only
sounder. Moves like that are the reason.
Your line looks extremely sound for Black and likely contains resources you
haven't even considered yet.
"Douglas L Stewart" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was just annotating a game for our State's chess website and ran across a
>game that started:
>
> 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 e4 5 Ng5
>
> Of course I was about to do 4 .. e4 ?! or 4 .. e4 ? in my annotations with
> a comment about preparing the move first when Fritz showed a line that
> looked interesting.
>
> 5 .. Ng4 6 Ngxe4 f5 7 f3 Nge5 and it appears Black recovers the pawn.
>
> It appears the best line for White is to change gears and go for the
> center with:
>
> 8 d4 Nxc4 9 Nf2 Bb4 10 e4 Nb6 11 a3 Be7 12 d5 Ne5 13 f4 Nf7 14 e5 O-O 15
> a4 a5 16 Be3
>
> Here of course White has a strong, strong advantage but not all of those
> moves were forced. I think 9 .. d5 is worth looking at.
>
> Anyway, I don't have any 5 .. Ng4 lines in my database so I thought this
> would be fun to share. I couldn't even find 4 .. e4 in my Carsten Hansen
> English book. I might try it in a Quick Chess game sometime since I think
> a lot of people would trip up early with the 'hanging' knight on g5. (i.e.
> 6 h3? )
>
> ---
> Douglas L Stewart
> [email protected]
> President, Mississippi Chess Association
> http://www.mcachess.org
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Date: 03 Jan 2006 15:28:12
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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In <[email protected] > Douglas Stewart wrote:
> I was just annotating a game for our State's chess website and ran
> across a game that started:
> 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 e4 5 Ng5
> Of course I was about to do 4 .. e4 ?! or 4 .. e4 ? in my annotations
> with a comment about preparing the move first when Fritz showed a line
> that looked interesting.
> 5 .. Ng4 6 Ngxe4 f5 7 f3 Nge5 and it appears Black recovers the pawn.
That's an interesting suggestion !
> It appears the best line for White is to change gears and go for the
> center with:
> 8 d4 Nxc4 9 Nf2 Bb4 10 e4 Nb6 11 a3 Be7 12 d5 Ne5 13 f4 Nf7 14 e5 O-O 15
> a4 a5 16 Be3
> Here of course White has a strong, strong advantage but not all of those
> moves were forced. I think 9 .. d5 is worth looking at.
Perhaps also 11...Bxc3, see below
I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
[ECO "A29"]
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
White can try
9. Nd5 (to inhibit ..Bb4 and ..d5) Nb6 10. Qb3 Nd4 11. Qe3+ Ne6
12. Qd3 Nxd5 13. Qxd5 Qf6 and Black has the edge.
9. d4
9... d5 10. e4 Nb6 (transposes to 9. e4 Nb6 10. d4 d5 below)
9... Bb4 10. e4 Nb6
11. Bb5 d5 12. exd5 d5 (transposes to 9. e4 Nb6 10. d4 d5 below)
11. a3
11... Be7 12. d5 Ne5 13. f4 Nf7 14. e5 O-O 15. a4 a5 16 Be3
11... Bxc3! 12. bc3 O-O 13. Bd3 d6 14. O-O Bd7 (or Qf6) 15. Bf4
and Black is fine.
9. e4 (!)
9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
13. O-O O-O 14. Bg5 Qxd6
and White might have a slight edge...
but White doesn't get much, and is completely out of his strategy.
> Anyway, I don't have any 5 .. Ng4 lines in my database so I thought
> this would be fun to share.
Agreed! After 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5
I have 8 games known with 7 wins for white :-)
5... Bc5 ( 1/0/0 ) 100 %
5... Ne5 ( 1/0/1 ) 50 %
5... Ng8 ( 1/0/0 ) 100 %
5... Qe7 ( 1/0/0 ) 100 %
5... d5 ( 2/0/0 ) 100 %
5... h6 ( 1/0/0 ) 100 %
And I was on the point of giving up 4.g3 and moving to 4.e3 anyway...
Regards, Peter
--
TAS/DPIWE/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
And how sweet a story it is, when you hear Charley Parker tell it
- Kerouac, Mexico City Blues
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Date: 03 Jan 2006 15:56:49
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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Peter Billam wrote:
>
> I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
> [ECO "A29"]
> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
> 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
>
> White can try
> 9. e4 (!)
> 9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
> and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
If 12. d5 Ne7 13. e5 White has a big advantage. 11...fxe4 prevents the
formation of the advanced pawn center, but after 12. d5 Nb4 13. Nfxe4
Be7 14. a3 Na6 15. Be3 White also has a big advantage.
> 9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
> 13. O-O O-O 14. Bg5 Qxd6
> and White might have a slight edge...
> but White doesn't get much, and is completely out of his strategy.
After 11. e5 White has a long lasting advantage. White has a passed
pawn, a definitive control of the black squares, a half open file that
is useful and play against the black weakness d5 (the king bishop will
be placed on the long diagonal). If Black defends d5 with c6 this is
answered by a minority attack on the queenside. Black is lacking active
plans. If Black goes for c5 he is worsening his problem about d5. An
advance on the kingside (g5) will be blocked by f4.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 00:13:29
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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>> I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
>> [ECO "A29"]
>> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
>> 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
>>
>> White can try
>> 9. e4 (!)
>> 9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
>> and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
>
> If 12. d5 Ne7 13. e5 White has a big advantage.
Not according to the engines.
>11...fxe4 prevents the formation of the advanced pawn center, but after 12.
>d5 Nb4 13. Nfxe4 Be7 14. a3 Na6 15. Be3 White also has a big advantage.
Try 12...Ne7 instead.
>
>> 9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
>> 13. O-O O-O 14. Bg5 Qxd6
>> and White might have a slight edge...
> > but White doesn't get much, and is completely out of his strategy.
>
> After 11. e5 White has a long lasting advantage. White has a passed pawn,
Tell that to 11...d6.
>a definitive control of the black squares,
With his undeveloped Bishop at c1 that is locked in by pawns at d2 and b2?
>a half open file that is useful and play against the black weakness d5 (the
>king bishop will be placed on the long diagonal). If Black defends d5 with
>c6
What about the other move he gets to make after White's d4?
>this is answered by a minority attack on the queenside.
Well, that sure settles THAT!!!
>Black is lacking active plans. If Black goes for c5 he is worsening his
>problem about d5. An advance on the kingside (g5) will be blocked by f4.
The computers say after 11. e5 d6, Black is holding just fine. White's
always going to get something out of the opening if he plays well, but he
has to be able to convert it to a win for it to matter.
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 03:39:14
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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Ray Gordon wrote:
>>>I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
>>>[ECO "A29"]
>>>1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
>>>6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
>>>
>>>White can try
>>>9. e4 (!)
>>> 9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
>>> and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
>>
>>If 12. d5 Ne7 13. e5 White has a big advantage.
> Not according to the engines.
I don't know about your engines, but my Shredder thinks the positional
advantage of White is equivalent to almost a pawn. If you look a bit
into the position you will see that Black has a big problem to develop
his queenside.
>>> 9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
>>
>>After 11. e5 White has a long lasting advantage. White has a passed pawn,
>
> Tell that to 11...d6.
Here the black d pawn is already at d5, see move 10.
>>a definitive control of the black squares,
>
> With his undeveloped Bishop at c1 that is locked in by pawns at d2 and b2?
To which position is this comment related? I commented for the position
with the white pawn formation a2, b2, d4, e5, f3, g3, h2. Black pawns
are a7, b7, c7, d5, f5, g7, h7.
>>a half open file that is useful and play against the black weakness d5 (the
>>king bishop will be placed on the long diagonal). If Black defends d5 with
>>c6
>
> What about the other move he gets to make after White's d4?
What do you suggest? After 10. d4 the immediate threat is 11. d5 Ne5 12.
f4 Nf7 13. e5 which 10...d5 adresses.
> The computers say after 11. e5 d6, Black is holding just fine. White's
> always going to get something out of the opening if he plays well, but he
> has to be able to convert it to a win for it to matter.
There is no black pawn that can be moved to d6. Obviously you are
referring to another position.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 10:56:48
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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Peter Billam wrote:
> I can't see anything better for White, so starting with
> [ECO "A29"]
> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ng4
> 6. Ngxe4 f5 7. f3 Nge5 8. Nf2 Nxc4
> White can try 9. e4 (!)
> 9... N4e5 10. f4 (10. d4 Nxd4) Nf7 11. d4 Bb4 12. e5
> and White has an edge; his position is loose but big.
In <[email protected] >, Claus-J�rgen Heigl wrote:
> If 12. d5 Ne7 13. e5 White has a big advantage. 11...fxe4 prevents the
> formation of the advanced pawn center, but after 12. d5 Nb4 13. Nfxe4
> Be7 14. a3 Na6 15. Be3 White also has a big advantage.
>
>> 9... Nb6 10. d4 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Bb5 Bb4 (or 12... Qe7+ 13. Kf1)
>> 13. O-O O-O 14. Bg5 Qxd6 and White might have a slight edge...
> After 11. e5 White has a long lasting advantage. White has a passed
> pawn, a definitive control of the black squares, a half open file that
> is useful and play against the black weakness d5 (the king bishop will
> be placed on the long diagonal). If Black defends d5 with c6 this is
> answered by a minority attack on the queenside. Black is lacking active
> plans. If Black goes for c5 he is worsening his problem about d5. An
> advance on the kingside (g5) will be blocked by f4.
OK, agreed. This should be White's best against 5... Ng4
Douglas Stewart's line has actually been suggested before;
I was looking at 5...Ne5 and found the annotated game:
[Event "Clubkampioenschap"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1998.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Gruyaert, Koen"]
[Black "Van Kerckhoven, Kris"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A29"]
[Opening "English"]
[Variation "four knights, kingside fianchetto"]
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ne5 $4 (5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4 (
6. Ncxe4 $43 f5 $7) 6... f5 7. f3 $4) 6. Qb3 c6 7. Ngxe4 Nxe4 8. Nxe4 d5 9.
cxd5 Qxd5 $6 (9... cxd5 10. Nc3 d4 11. Qb5+ Nc6 12. Nd5 $4) 10. Qxd5 cxd5
11. Nc3 a6 $8 (11... Be6 $6) 12. Nxd5 Bd6 13. Bg2 O-O (13... Nc6 14. d3 $8)
14. O-O Bd7 (14... Bg4 15. f3 Be6 16. f4 $8) 15. Nb6 Rae8 (15... Rad8 16.
d4 Nc6 17. Nxd7 Rxd7 18. Rd1 $8) 16. Bxb7 (16. d4 $42 Bb5 17. dxe5 Bxe5 18.
Bf3 $8) 16... Bb5 17. Bf3 $4 (17. d4 $42 Ng6 18. Nd5 $8) 17... Nxf3+ 18.
exf3 Bxf1 19. Kxf1 Re6 20. d4 (20. Nc4 Rfe8 $4) 20... Rd8 $4 (20... Bb4 21.
Nd5 Re1+ 22. Kg2 Bd2 23. Bxd2 Rxa1 $5) 21. Be3 Bxg3 22. hxg3 $1 (22. d5
Rxe3 23. fxe3 $6 (23. fxg3 Rxf3+ 24. Kg2 Rf6 $9)) 22... Rxb6 23. b3 Rd5 24.
Kg2 (24. Rc1 Kf8 $1) 24... Rc6 25. Re1 Rc2 26. a3 g6 $1 (26... h6 27. b4 $5
) 27. Ra1 $5 (27. Bh6 Rc8 $1) 27... a5 $1 (27... Rc3 28. b4 $5) 28. Rb1 Kf8
29. f4 $5 (29. b4 axb4 30. axb4 Rb5 $1) 29... Ke7 30. Kf3 (30. b4 Rb5 $5)
30... Ke6 (30... Kd6 31. a4 $5) 31. a4 h5 32. b4 (32. Ke4 Rc3 33. b4 f5+
34. Kf3 axb4 35. Rxb4 Ra3 $5) 32... axb4 (32... Rc4 33. bxa5 Rxa5 34. Ke4
$7) 33. Rxb4 Ra2 34. Rb6+ Kf5 $1 (34... Rd6 35. f5+ gxf5 36. Rb8 $5) 35.
Ra6 Ra3 (35... f6 36. Ra7 $1) 36. Kg2 (36. Ke2 Ke4 37. f3+ Kf5 $1) 36...
Ra2 37. Ra7 f6 38. Kf3 Ra3 39. Ke2 g5 40. fxg5 fxg5 41. Kd2 h4 42. Rg7 h3
$6 (42... Kf6 $42 43. Ra7 h3 $5) 43. Rh7 $7 (43. Rxg5+ $42 Ke6 44. Rg6+ Kf7
45. Rh6 $6) 43... Kg4 44. Ke2 Ra1 (44... Rxa4 45. f4 $7) 45. Rh8 Ra5 (45...
Rxa4 46. f4 $7) 46. Rh7 R5xa4 47. Bxg5 (47. d5 $9) 47... Kxg5 48. Rxh3 Rxd4
49. Kf3 (49. Rh8 Re4+ 50. Kd3 Rea4 $9) 49... Ra3+ 50. Kg2 Rd6 (50... Rd2
51. Rh8 $9) 51. Rh4 (51. f4+ Kg6 52. Rh4 Rd1 $9) 51... Rf6 (51... Ra2 52.
Rf4 $9) 52. f4+ Kg6 53. Kh3 Kf7 54. Kg2 (54. Rh7+ Kg8 55. Rh4 Rb3 $9) 54...
Ke6 (54... Rg6 55. Rh3 $9) 55. Kf2 Kf5 56. Rh5+ Ke4 57. Re5+ Kd4 58. Rg5
Re3 (58... Rc6 59. Kg2 $9) 59. Kg2 (59. Ra5 Rfe6 $9) 59... Rh6 60. Kf2 (60.
Rg8 $9) 60... Rh2+ 61. Kg1 Rb2 (61... Rb2 62. Re5 Rxg3+ 63. Kf1 Rf3+ 64.
Kg1 Rff2 $9) 0-1
which raises the FAQ about what $43 $7 and $4 mean... I have no idea
which Club is referred to, or who did the notes. The other 5...Ne5 game
had continued 11... Be6 :
[Event "Ch Moravia (open) (w)"]
[Site "Frydek Mistek CZE"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Grechanovskaya, Elena"]
[Black "Vrbikova D (CZE)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2135"]
[ECO "A29"]
[Opening "English"]
[Variation "four knights, kingside fianchetto"]
1. Nf3 Nc6 2. c4 e5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ne5 6. Qb3 c6 7. Ngxe4 Nxe4
8. Nxe4 d5 9. cxd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 cxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. Bg2 O-O-O 13. d4 Nc6
14. e3 Nb4 15. O-O Nc2 16. Rb1 Bf5 17. Bd2 Bd3 18. Rfd1 Nb4 19. Rbc1 Bc2
20. Nxd5 Kb8 21. Nxb4 Bxd1 22. Rxd1 Bxb4 23. Bxb4 Rc8 24. d5 Rc2 25. Bc3 f6
26. Be4 Re2 27. Bd3 1-0
After 5... Ne5, is 6. Qb3 best ?
6. b3 Bb4 7. Bg2 e3 gives Black an initiative, but I dimly remember
facing 5... Ne5 about 25 years ago, and I think I continued
6. Bg2 Nxc4 7. d3 ed3 8. Qxd3
Regards, Peter
--
TAS/DPIWE/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
And how sweet a story it is, when you hear Charley Parker tell it
- Kerouac, Mexico City Blues
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 03:03:10
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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Peter Billam wrote:
>
> Douglas Stewart's line has actually been suggested before;
> I was looking at 5...Ne5 and found the annotated game:
>
> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 e4 5. Ng5 Ne5 $4 (5... Ng4 6. Ngxe4 (
> 6. Ncxe4 $43 f5 $7) 6... f5 7. f3 $4) 6. Qb3 c6 7. Ngxe4 Nxe4 8. Nxe4 d5 9.
> cxd5 Qxd5 $6 (9... cxd5 10. Nc3 d4 11. Qb5+ Nc6 12. Nd5 $4) 10. Qxd5 cxd5
> 11. Nc3 a6 $8 (11... Be6 $6)
>
> which raises the FAQ about what $43 $7 and $4 mean... I have no idea
> which Club is referred to, or who did the notes. The other 5...Ne5 game
> had continued 11... Be6 :
When I plug the game into Shredder I get $4 as ?? which seems doubtful.
I looked through the game and I don't trust the analysis. For example
the variation in the 9th move 9... cxd5 10. Nc3 d4 11. Qb5+ Nc6 12. Nd5
is nonsense because after 12...a6 13. Qc4 Be6 White has trouble with his
knight. 14. Bg2 doesn't help much because 14...Rc8 covers c7 and Black
threatens both Nb4 and Ne7. Better looks 11. Nd5 Be6 12. Bg2 Qd7 13.
Qb5! and the knight is not pinned anymore.
In the second game White had no apparent difficulties.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 06:31:30
From: Alexander Wagner
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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On 2006-01-05, Claus-J�rgen Heigl <[email protected] > wrote:
Hi!
> Peter Billam wrote:
>>
>> which raises the FAQ about what $43 $7 and $4 mean... I
>> have no idea which Club is referred to, or who did the
>> notes. The other 5...Ne5 game had continued 11... Be6 :
>
> When I plug the game into Shredder I get $4 as ?? which
> seems doubtful.
Sorry to drop in here about an earlier question. $4 as ??
seems correct, $43 would be "Black has insufficient
compensation for material deficit", $7 "Forced move". A
complete list can be found in the docs for SCID e.g.
http://scid.sourceforge.net/help/NAGs.html
which seems to be the most complete list available. (At
least to my knowledge.)
Also informative might be some documents for typesetting
chess with LaTeX where normally also the symbols are
explained. E.g. the documentation to chess.sty.
--
Kind regards,
Alexander Wagner
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 14:55:17
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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Alexander Wagner wrote:
> Sorry to drop in here about an earlier question. $4 as ??
> seems correct, $43 would be "Black has insufficient
> compensation for material deficit", $7 "Forced move". A
> complete list can be found in the docs for SCID e.g.
Thanks for the link. What eludes me is the significance of the comments.
All those "forced moves" aren't really forced, also the several ?? are
exaggerating a bit.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 10:53:05
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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Peter Billam <[email protected] > wrote:
> which raises the FAQ about what $43 $7 and $4 mean...
Black has insufficient compensation, forced move and ??, respectively.
It's unclear to me how a forced move can be a blunder but there you go.
The full list is at:
http://www.very-best.de/pgn-spec.htm#10.
(The final dot is part of the URL.)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Fluorescent Newspaper (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a daily broadsheet but it'll hurt
your eyes!
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 03:03:37
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5 Ng5 Ng4!
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> which raises the FAQ about what $43 $7 and $4 mean...
bribes?
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Date: 02 Jan 2006 19:13:18
From: Amarande
Subject: Re: new trick in English 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 g3 e4!? 5
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Douglas L Stewart wrote:
> I was just annotating a game for our State's chess website and ran
> across a game that started:
>
> 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 e4 5 Ng5
The subject line indicates that 3 Nf3 Nc6 is introduced, as well. I am
assuming these moves as no other move 3 was given and ... e4 does not
make strategic sense until after White has played Nf3.
> 5 .. Ng4 6 Ngxe4 f5 7 f3 Nge5 and it appears Black recovers the pawn.
>
> It appears the best line for White is to change gears and go for the
> center with:
>
> 8 d4 Nxc4 9 Nf2 Bb4 10 e4 Nb6 11 a3 Be7 12 d5 Ne5 13 f4 Nf7 14 e5 O-O 15
> a4 a5 16 Be3
>
> Here of course White has a strong, strong advantage but not all of those
> moves were forced. I think 9 .. d5 is worth looking at.
Quite. E.g. -
9 ... d5 10 e4 fxe4 11 fxe4 Bb4!
Much better than ... Nb6.
White is starting to suffer - 12 exd5 doesn't win a piece (...Qxd5, with
or without ...Bxc3+ first); moreover, Black is about to castle while
White's development lags preventing him from doing so at once.
Meanwhile, the White center pawns will tend towards weak, being exposed
and lacking points of support; Black currently has the option to force
White's d-pawn to become an IQP (unless White first plays e5, which
still leaves d4 somewhat weak a la the French, or if he comes up with
something else).
In order to preserve the integrity of the center pawns and get the King
into safety, therefore -
12 Bxc4 dxc4 13 d5 Bxc3+
Black must relinquish the advantage of two Bishops, for if the Knight
moves now there is 14 Qa4+ and Black must still lose one of the pieces.
14 bxc3
and now Black must do something about the Knight; Na5 loses at once to
Qa4+, while Nb8 would clearly be inferior, so we have a choice between
Ne5 and Ne7.
A. 14 ... Ne5 15 Qh5+ Ng6 16 O-O O-O 17 Ba3 etc., with a certain
advantage accruing to White in the strong center, while now it is Black
who is lagging in development, having had to trade off two developed
pieces. On the other hand White has square weaknesses at f3, h3, e5, and
d3, all but one of these being on white squares and thus particularly
good for Black; also, Black has a 4v2 majority on the Q wing for an
end-game, while a passed pawn in the center (White's e4) tends to be
less valuable than one on the wing. It is an interesting position worth
further investigation.
B. 14 ... Ne7? 15 Qa4+ (15 Qh5+ Ng6 transposes into variation A) c6 16
dxc6 Nxc6 17 Qxc4 with a seriously bad situation for Black as he is a
Pawn down, cannot castle while White is about to, and generally lacks
prospects. As against this White's extra Pawn is even a passed one.
Black is definitely better off with 14 ... Ne5.
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