nice little quiz

Date: 13 Oct 2005 23:53:02
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: nice little quiz

Ok the position is like this:

White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3

Black: King at c8, knight at e7

Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
9-10 moves)

Date: 17 Oct 2005 14:10:16
From:
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> Yes the explanation for this that for the pawn at c3 the mate is at 15
> moves whereas at c2 the mate is at 17. I am not exactly sure how much
> more computation that involves (does it exponentialy increase? perhaps)
> but Chessmaster 10 found the mates with both positions. I am amazed
> however that Fritz found the c3 (15 moves) at 30 seconds. Chessmaster 10
> took about 30 minutes to 1 hour to find the 15 moves (perhaps it
> analysed the whole tree? who knows) but for the 17 moves I had to leave
> it overnight to calculate. But it did find it eventually. (The one I
> published before)

Interestingly, this morning I ran it again, and Fritz announced mate
after about 5 minutes analysis of the c2 position. Perhaps before it
was inhibited by other software I may have been running.

Date: 15 Oct 2005 07:57:33
From:
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> Yeah try the same with the correct positions.
> White: King at a8 pawn at a2 and pawn at c2
> It should be about 17 moves.

Interesting. With the pawn at c2, Fritz8 does not find the mate, at
least in the time I gave it. After about 5 minutes it rated the
position as -5.28, a rather meaningless evaluation under the
circumstances, but it did not announce a mate until I played 1...Nc6
2.c3 Kc7 3.c4 Kb6.
Yet starting with the pawn at c3, it announces mate in about 30
seconds.

Date: 15 Oct 2005 20:53:51
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

[email protected] wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
>>Yeah try the same with the correct positions.
>>White: King at a8 pawn at a2 and pawn at c2
>>It should be about 17 moves.
>
>
> Interesting. With the pawn at c2, Fritz8 does not find the mate, at
> least in the time I gave it. After about 5 minutes it rated the
> position as -5.28, a rather meaningless evaluation under the
> circumstances, but it did not announce a mate until I played 1...Nc6
> 2.c3 Kc7 3.c4 Kb6.
> Yet starting with the pawn at c3, it announces mate in about 30
> seconds.
>

Yes the explanation for this that for the pawn at c3 the mate is at 15
moves whereas at c2 the mate is at 17. I am not exactly sure how much
more computation that involves (does it exponentialy increase? perhaps)
but Chessmaster 10 found the mates with both positions. I am amazed
however that Fritz found the c3 (15 moves) at 30 seconds. Chessmaster 10
took about 30 minutes to 1 hour to find the 15 moves (perhaps it
analysed the whole tree? who knows) but for the 17 moves I had to leave
it overnight to calculate. But it did find it eventually. (The one I
published before)

Also if you look at the postings above by someone named FewGoodChessmen,
he published a solution for 13 moves with a starting position at c3.
That is simply impossible and this is not a correct solution because you
won't have the white cooperating like that.

Date: 14 Oct 2005 16:06:26
From:
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> Ok the position is like this:
> White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
> Black: King at c8, knight at e7
> Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> 9-10 moves)

Fritz8 found a mate in about 30 seconds on my machine (Compaq Evo
D510 CMT, x86, ~2400 mHz). One sample line: 1...Nc6 2.c4 Kc7 3.c5 Kc8
4.a4 Kc7 5.a5 Kc8 6.a6 Nd4 7.Ka7 Kc7 8.Ka8 Nb5 9.c6 Kc8 10.c7 Nxc7+
11.Ka7 Nd5 12.Ka8 Kc7 13.Ka7 Ne7 14.Ka8 Nc8 15.a7 Nb6#.

Date: 15 Oct 2005 02:10:33
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

[email protected] wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
>>Ok the position is like this:
>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>9-10 moves)
>
>
> Fritz8 found a mate in about 30 seconds on my machine (Compaq Evo
> D510 CMT, x86, ~2400 mHz). One sample line: 1...Nc6 2.c4 Kc7 3.c5 Kc8
> 4.a4 Kc7 5.a5 Kc8 6.a6 Nd4 7.Ka7 Kc7 8.Ka8 Nb5 9.c6 Kc8 10.c7 Nxc7+
> 11.Ka7 Nd5 12.Ka8 Kc7 13.Ka7 Ne7 14.Ka8 Nc8 15.a7 Nb6#.
>
Just if you are interested thats what Chessmaster 10 found. Almost
identical (the last moves of the knight do not matter as long as it
finishes on b6)

1...Nc6 2.c4 Kc7 3.c5 Kc8 4.a4 Kc7 5.a5 Kc8 6.a6 Nd4 7.Ka7 Kc7 8.c6 Nb5+
9.Ka8 Kc8 10.c7 Nxc7+ 11.Ka7 Nd5 12.Ka8 Kc7 13.Ka7 Ne7
14.Ka8 Nc8 15.a7 Nb6#

For the correct starting position (second pawn at c2) the mate is at 17
moves. I published the results but I can let Chessmaster look for it.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 15:12:12
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129338640.05d66af289899c1dea6b422111ec9ca1@teranews...
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> >
> >>Ok the position is like this:
> >>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
> >>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
> >>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> >>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> >>9-10 moves)
> >
> >
> > Fritz8 found a mate in about 30 seconds on my machine (Compaq Evo
> > D510 CMT, x86, ~2400 mHz). One sample line: 1...Nc6 2.c4 Kc7 3.c5 Kc8
> > 4.a4 Kc7 5.a5 Kc8 6.a6 Nd4 7.Ka7 Kc7 8.Ka8 Nb5 9.c6 Kc8 10.c7 Nxc7+
> > 11.Ka7 Nd5 12.Ka8 Kc7 13.Ka7 Ne7 14.Ka8 Nc8 15.a7 Nb6#.
> >
> Just if you are interested thats what Chessmaster 10 found. Almost
> identical (the last moves of the knight do not matter as long as it
> finishes on b6)

K1k5/P1n5/8/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1 mated by the Knight on c7 is also valid.

Date: 15 Oct 2005 01:33:58
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

[email protected] wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
>>Ok the position is like this:
>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>9-10 moves)
>
>
> Fritz8 found a mate in about 30 seconds on my machine (Compaq Evo
> D510 CMT, x86, ~2400 mHz). One sample line: 1...Nc6 2.c4 Kc7 3.c5 Kc8
> 4.a4 Kc7 5.a5 Kc8 6.a6 Nd4 7.Ka7 Kc7 8.Ka8 Nb5 9.c6 Kc8 10.c7 Nxc7+
> 11.Ka7 Nd5 12.Ka8 Kc7 13.Ka7 Ne7 14.Ka8 Nc8 15.a7 Nb6#.
>

Yeah try the same with the correct positions.
White: King at a8 pawn at a2 and pawn at c2

It should be about 17 moves.

Something interesting though you might like to know. I had Fritz8 play
against Chessmaster 10 a while back. The results. Chessmaster 2 Fritz 0
and one draw.
I am not saying anything, just giving the results. People can make their
own conclusions.

Date: 17 Oct 2005 14:06:20
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos <[email protected] > wrote:
> Something interesting though you might like to know. I had Fritz8 play
> against Chessmaster 10 a while back. The results. Chessmaster 2 Fritz 0
> and one draw.
>
> I am not saying anything, just giving the results. People can make their
> own conclusions.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that more data is
required to draw a conclusion.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Radioactive Technicolor Cheese (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a lump of cheese but it's
in realistic colour and it'll make
you glow in the dark!

Date: 15 Oct 2005 00:17:37
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
> Ok the position is like this:
>
> White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>
> Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>
> Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> 9-10 moves)

With the given congifuration for Black to delivers the Checkmate could only
be tranformed into any following final positions (Taking the known fact K+N
vs. K is Theoretical Drawn):
1. 8/8/8/8/8/2P5/P1n5/K1k5 w - - 0 1
With both White Pawns untouched it is very unlikely that White King would
moves from a8 into self-confinement at a1. Furthermore, this position is
illegal.

2. K1k5/P7/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1
White wouldn't be such cooperative, i.e. 1... Nd5 2. a3 (or 2.2
K7/P1k5/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1 arised from 2. a4 Kc7 3. a5 Kc8 4. a6 Kc7
5. a7 Nb6) 2. ... Kc7 3. a4 Kc8 4. a5 Kc7 5. a6 Kc8 6. a7 Nb6. And this does
not fulfill your stipulation of Mate in 17 Moves even after arriving at
8/8/8/K1k5/2P5/2n5/P7/8 w - - 0 6 with 1... Nd5 2. c4 Nc3 3. Ka7 Kc7 4. Ka6
Kc6 5. Ka5 Kc5 where 6. a4 (if 6. a3 then 6. ... Kc4 is Draw) 6. ... Na2. 7.
Ka6 Kc6 8. Ka7 (if 8. a5 Nb4 9. Ka7 Kc7 10. c5 K6 11. ... Kc5 is Draw) 8.
... Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. a5 Nc3 11. a6 Na4 12. a7 Kc7 13. c5 Kc8 14. c6 Nb6,
etc.

These are just typical patterns where the a2-Pawn and a8-Corner plays a
crucial role for Black's Knight mating net. To Checkmate elsewhere on the
board is impossible and I think there's a mistake in your 17 Moves play. The
forced line is 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. c5 Kc8 4. a4 (4. a3 Kc7 5. a4 Kc8 6. a5
Kc7 7. a6 Kc8 8. a7 Na5 9. c6 Nc4 10. c7 Nb6) 4. ... Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Na5
7. c6 Nc4 8. Ka7 Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. c7 Kxc7 11. Ka7 Nd6 12. Ka8 Nc8 13. a7
Nb6 also failed to meet your stipulation.

Prove me wrong otherwise in trivial views above with your 17 Moves.

Date: 15 Oct 2005 20:53:48
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
>
>>Ok the position is like this:
>>
>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>
>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>
>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>9-10 moves)
>
>
> With the given congifuration for Black to delivers the Checkmate could only
> be tranformed into any following final positions (Taking the known fact K+N
> vs. K is Theoretical Drawn):
> 1. 8/8/8/8/8/2P5/P1n5/K1k5 w - - 0 1
> With both White Pawns untouched it is very unlikely that White King would
> moves from a8 into self-confinement at a1. Furthermore, this position is
> illegal.
>
> 2. K1k5/P7/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1
> White wouldn't be such cooperative, i.e. 1... Nd5 2. a3 (or 2.2
> K7/P1k5/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1 arised from 2. a4 Kc7 3. a5 Kc8 4. a6 Kc7
> 5. a7 Nb6) 2. ... Kc7 3. a4 Kc8 4. a5 Kc7 5. a6 Kc8 6. a7 Nb6. And this does
> not fulfill your stipulation of Mate in 17 Moves even after arriving at
> 8/8/8/K1k5/2P5/2n5/P7/8 w - - 0 6 with 1... Nd5 2. c4 Nc3 3. Ka7 Kc7 4. Ka6
> Kc6 5. Ka5 Kc5 where 6. a4 (if 6. a3 then 6. ... Kc4 is Draw) 6. ... Na2. 7.
> Ka6 Kc6 8. Ka7 (if 8. a5 Nb4 9. Ka7 Kc7 10. c5 K6 11. ... Kc5 is Draw) 8.
> ... Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. a5 Nc3 11. a6 Na4 12. a7 Kc7 13. c5 Kc8 14. c6 Nb6,
> etc.
>
> These are just typical patterns where the a2-Pawn and a8-Corner plays a
> crucial role for Black's Knight mating net. To Checkmate elsewhere on the
> board is impossible and I think there's a mistake in your 17 Moves play. The
> forced line is 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. c5 Kc8 4. a4 (4. a3 Kc7 5. a4 Kc8 6. a5
> Kc7 7. a6 Kc8 8. a7 Na5 9. c6 Nc4 10. c7 Nb6) 4. ... Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Na5
> 7. c6 Nc4 8. Ka7 Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. c7 Kxc7 11. Ka7 Nd6 12. Ka8 Nc8 13. a7
> Nb6 also failed to meet your stipulation.
>
> Prove me wrong otherwise in trivial views above with your 17 Moves.
>
>
>
That is simply impossible and this is not a correct solution because you
won't have the white cooperating like that. We can either play this
position out if you wish or you can calculate it with one of the chess
programs. It is 15 moves for a mate. Not 13.
And if you start with the pawns at a2 and c2 the mate is at 17.
End of discussion. You are wrong

Date: 16 Oct 2005 08:35:02
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129406037.69b791cd9aa5697d545fbe98f8aceabf@teranews...
> Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> > "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
> >
> >>Ok the position is like this:
> >>
> >>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
> >>
> >>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
> >>
> >>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> >>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> >>9-10 moves)
> >
> >
> > With the given congifuration for Black to delivers the Checkmate could
only
> > be tranformed into any following final positions (Taking the known fact
K+N
> > vs. K is Theoretical Drawn):
> > 1. 8/8/8/8/8/2P5/P1n5/K1k5 w - - 0 1
> > With both White Pawns untouched it is very unlikely that White King
would
> > moves from a8 into self-confinement at a1. Furthermore, this position is
> > illegal.
> >
> > 2. K1k5/P7/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1
> > White wouldn't be such cooperative, i.e. 1... Nd5 2. a3 (or 2.2
> > K7/P1k5/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1 arised from 2. a4 Kc7 3. a5 Kc8 4. a6
Kc7
> > 5. a7 Nb6) 2. ... Kc7 3. a4 Kc8 4. a5 Kc7 5. a6 Kc8 6. a7 Nb6. And this
does
> > not fulfill your stipulation of Mate in 17 Moves even after arriving at
> > 8/8/8/K1k5/2P5/2n5/P7/8 w - - 0 6 with 1... Nd5 2. c4 Nc3 3. Ka7 Kc7 4.
Ka6
> > Kc6 5. Ka5 Kc5 where 6. a4 (if 6. a3 then 6. ... Kc4 is Draw) 6. ...
Na2. 7.
> > Ka6 Kc6 8. Ka7 (if 8. a5 Nb4 9. Ka7 Kc7 10. c5 K6 11. ... Kc5 is Draw)
8.
> > ... Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. a5 Nc3 11. a6 Na4 12. a7 Kc7 13. c5 Kc8 14. c6
Nb6,
> > etc.
> >
> > These are just typical patterns where the a2-Pawn and a8-Corner plays a
> > crucial role for Black's Knight mating net. To Checkmate elsewhere on
the
> > board is impossible and I think there's a mistake in your 17 Moves play.
The
> > forced line is 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. c5 Kc8 4. a4 (4. a3 Kc7 5. a4 Kc8
6. a5
> > Kc7 7. a6 Kc8 8. a7 Na5 9. c6 Nc4 10. c7 Nb6) 4. ... Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6
Na5
> > 7. c6 Nc4 8. Ka7 Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. c7 Kxc7 11. Ka7 Nd6 12. Ka8 Nc8 13.
a7
> > Nb6 also failed to meet your stipulation.
> >
> > Prove me wrong otherwise in trivial views above with your 17 Moves.
> >
> >
> >
> That is simply impossible and this is not a correct solution because you
> won't have the white cooperating like that. We can either play this
> position out if you wish or you can calculate it with one of the chess
> programs. It is 15 moves for a mate. Not 13.
> And if you start with the pawns at a2 and c2 the mate is at 17.
> End of discussion. You are wrong

I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2 and
c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz alive (I
Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
which indeed proved me wrong.

And I haven't went through the Mate at 17 Moves for Pawns at a2 and
c2...Yes, end of this pointless discussion.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 13:35:53
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1129406037.69b791cd9aa5697d545fbe98f8aceabf@teranews...
> > Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> > > "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
<snip >

> I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2 and
> c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz alive
(I
> Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
> which indeed proved me wrong.

Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at a2
and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7 7.
c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7 May be someone would call this White is
cooperating as well.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 13:42:48
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:

>
> Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at a2
> and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7 7.
> c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7 May be someone would call this White is
> cooperating as well.
>
>

How did you find that exactly? Played the game with your computer and
lost after 10 moves?

Date: 16 Oct 2005 21:09:55
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129466534.8357c82fdc3863db7f5f52e54cba6273@teranews...
> Few Good Chessmen wrote:
>
> >
> > Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at
a2
> > and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7
7.
> > c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7 May be someone would call this
White is
> > cooperating as well.
> >
> >
>
> How did you find that exactly? Played the game with your computer and
> lost after 10 moves?

Nope. I used the 15 Moves Mate to back track in order to find these minimum
(it takes some Chess Counting).

Date: 16 Oct 2005 13:10:41
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:1129406037.69b791cd9aa5697d545fbe98f8aceabf@teranews...
>>
>>>Few Good Chessmen wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
>
> <snip>
>
>>I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2 and
>>c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz alive
>
> (I
>
>>Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
>>which indeed proved me wrong.
>
>
> Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at a2
> and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7 7.
> c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7 May be someone would call this White is
> cooperating as well.
>
>
>
Tell me something, do you know what is the meaning of a forced mate?

Date: 16 Oct 2005 20:45:20
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129464622.ac726e6bf22e75fef084ea234c18fab2@teranews...
> Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> > "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:1129406037.69b791cd9aa5697d545fbe98f8aceabf@teranews...
> >>
> >>>Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>>news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2
and
> >>c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz
alive
> >
> > (I
> >
> >>Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
> >>which indeed proved me wrong.
> >
> >
> > Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at
a2
> > and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7
7.
> > c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7 May be someone would call this
White is
> > cooperating as well.
> >
> >
> >
> Tell me something, do you know what is the meaning of a forced mate?

Yes, indeed. It means there is only one Legal Move (for your opponent)
arised from every subsequent positions that lead to a Checkmate (given by
you). Now you define the cooperating play.

:-)

Date: 17 Oct 2005 18:10:36
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

On 2005-10-16, Few Good Chessmen wrote:
>> Tell me something, do you know what is the meaning of a forced mate?
>
> Yes, indeed. It means there is only one Legal Move (for your opponent)
> arised from every subsequent positions that lead to a Checkmate (given by
> you).

No; that is not the definition. Consider the following position:

3k4/8/3K4/3R4/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

White can force mate in 3 moves with any of 11 different moves.
With 2 of those moves, Black has no choice; he has only one move.
For the other 9 moves by White, Black has 2 possible replies, both
of which allow White to force mate.

For the remaining moves, there is only one way to play each line.
With correct play, White can checkmate Black no matter what move
he makes.

The criterion for a forced mate is obviously not "only one Legal
Move".

> Now you define the cooperating play.

In a cooperating play, a player makes an unforced move that allows
mate.

In the above position, after 1. Ra5 Kc8 2. Rh5, if Black plays 2.
... Kd8, he is co-operating and allowing 3. Rh8++ when he did not
have to; he could have played Kb8 or Kb7.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org >
==================================================================
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress
<http://www.torfree.net/~chris/books/cfaj/ssr.html >

Date: 18 Oct 2005 07:20:23
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Chris F.A. Johnson" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2005-10-16, Few Good Chessmen wrote:
<snip >

Yes, you are right but you missed one of my last post earlier (and of course
you might don't understant it as well...).

Date: 17 Oct 2005 14:03:56
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen <[email protected] > wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tell me something, do you know what is the meaning of a forced mate?
>
> Yes, indeed. It means there is only one Legal Move (for your opponent)
> arised from every subsequent positions that lead to a Checkmate (given
> by you).

OK, so you don't know the meaning of `forced mate'. A forced mate is one
where the winning side can deliver checkmate against any defence by the
losing side. There's no requirement for uniqueness. For example, K+R vs
K is a forced mate for the side with the rook (unless the rook is en prise
in the start position or the start position is stalemate) but there are
many ways to win it.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Portable Permanent Spoon (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a piece of cutlery but it'll
be there for ever and you can take
it anywhere!

Date: 17 Oct 2005 21:33:37
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:Cdg*[email protected]...
> Few Good Chessmen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Vasileios Zografos <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Tell me something, do you know what is the meaning of a forced mate?
> >
> > Yes, indeed. It means there is only one Legal Move (for your opponent)
> > arised from every subsequent positions that lead to a Checkmate (given
> > by you).
>
> OK, so you don't know the meaning of `forced mate'. A forced mate is one
> where the winning side can deliver checkmate against any defence by the
> losing side. There's no requirement for uniqueness. For example, K+R vs
> K is a forced mate for the side with the rook (unless the rook is en prise
> in the start position or the start position is stalemate) but there are
> many ways to win it.

Hi, David.

Your is much too vague...there can be only one answer for any given Chess
Position - note the "every subsequent positions" is well covered by your
overly wording for a simple definition. But refining my definition with
numerical aspect of Forced Mate, i.e. Mate n Moves would highlights the
depth required, expression of certainty and definite uniqueness (I expressed
it bluntly earlier - it just came off like that).

And I thought logician don't like obscurity...

Date: 17 Oct 2005 15:16:29
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> A forced mate is one where the winning side can deliver checkmate
>> against any defence by the losing side. There's no requirement for
>> uniqueness.
>
> Your is much too vague...

There's no vagueness at all.

> there can be only one answer for any given Chess Position - note the
> "every subsequent positions" is well covered by your overly wording for
> a simple definition. But refining my definition with numerical aspect of
> Forced Mate, i.e. Mate n Moves would highlights the depth required,
> expression of certainty and definite uniqueness (I expressed it bluntly
> earlier - it just came off like that).

I'm sorry but I can't understand that paragraph at all.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Carnivorous Pants (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ well-tailored pair of trousers but
it's full of teeth!

Date: 17 Oct 2005 16:07:02
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1id*[email protected]...
> Few Good Chessmen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> A forced mate is one where the winning side can deliver checkmate
>>> against any defence by the losing side. There's no requirement for
>>> uniqueness.
>>
>> Your is much too vague...
>
> There's no vagueness at all.
>
>
>> there can be only one answer for any given Chess Position - note the
>> "every subsequent positions" is well covered by your overly wording for
>> a simple definition. But refining my definition with numerical aspect of
>> Forced Mate, i.e. Mate n Moves would highlights the depth required,
>> expression of certainty and definite uniqueness (I expressed it bluntly
>> earlier - it just came off like that).
>
> I'm sorry but I can't understand that paragraph at all.
>
>
> Dave.

Dave,
don't waste your energy with this guy. I have been trying in vain to explain
to him that he is wrong and what he has been describing all along is not a
forced mate. Instead of trying to listen he has been calling me an idiot. I
guess this is what you get when trying to educate some people. Just because
he got mated in 10 or 13 moves he thinks he found a forced mate. (Not to
mention the fact that most of his sentences don't make any sense).
I gave up. I strongly encourage you to do the same.
It was a nice little exercise though. Exercise in chess and in futility
Vasileios

Date: 18 Oct 2005 07:33:14
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129561583.dd53e2c95a2f9092f8e7ffb7cf60bd1a@teranews...
>
> "David Richerby" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1id*[email protected]...
> > Few Good Chessmen <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip >

>
> Dave,
> don't waste your energy with this guy. I have been trying in vain to
explain
> to him that he is wrong and what he has been describing all along is not a
> forced mate. Instead of trying to listen he has been calling me an idiot.
I
> guess this is what you get when trying to educate some people. Just
because
> he got mated in 10 or 13 moves he thinks he found a forced mate. (Not to
> mention the fact that most of his sentences don't make any sense).
> I gave up. I strongly encourage you to do the same.
> It was a nice little exercise though. Exercise in chess and in futility
> Vasileios

What nice exercise in Chess? Your Chessmaster helped you for the simple
answer.

Yes, don't waste your energy on me. But be very wary on Vasileios Zografos
for someone who make mistake in his intended quiz (seem to be very alert to
personal abuse but slow with Chess Pointers - only receptable to computer
analysis and incapable by himself on Chess Solution).

Date: 18 Oct 2005 00:58:19
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:435434b7$0$21041

> What nice exercise in Chess? Your Chessmaster helped you for the simple
> answer.

err....you do realise that I knew the answer before I submitted the exercise
right?

>
> Yes, don't waste your energy on me. But be very wary on Vasileios Zografos
> for someone who make mistake in his intended quiz (seem to be very alert
> to
> personal abuse but slow with Chess Pointers - only receptable to computer
> analysis and incapable by himself on Chess Solution).

oh my god....my reputation in the chess newsgroup is ruined.

Date: 18 Oct 2005 08:05:58
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129593502.0225138da105e95d32a67981e7624cb2@teranews...
>
> "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:435434b7$0$21041
>
> > What nice exercise in Chess? Your Chessmaster helped you for the simple
> > answer.
>
> err....you do realise that I knew the answer before I submitted the
exercise
> right?

Yup, only after with the help of your Chessmaster (yet again showing how
thick he is). Tell me how did you find the quiz in the first place?

> >
> > Yes, don't waste your energy on me. But be very wary on Vasileios
Zografos
> > for someone who make mistake in his intended quiz (seem to be very alert
> > to
> > personal abuse but slow with Chess Pointers - only receptable to
computer
> > analysis and incapable by himself on Chess Solution).
>
> oh my god....my reputation in the chess newsgroup is ruined.

So it's about reputation all this while? Nah...you can come back with
different user name (which ever suited you).

Date: 18 Oct 2005 01:15:34
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:43543c61$0$25793
> Yup, only after with the help of your Chessmaster (yet again showing how
> thick he is). Tell me how did you find the quiz in the first place?

Yes keep saying that. You might believe it after a while. Because as
everyone has seen you managed to find a WRONG solution without using a
chessprogram. Well that's great for you. Keep up the good work. And
whatsmore you cannot accept that you were wrong, even when other people have
told you and the fact that you do not know the basic definitions of a forced
mate and cooperative play.
But what is really funny, is that eventhough your English is so bad, you
seem to think that its the other people's fault that they do not understand
you. Well, I think that combined with your bad language is a good indication
of your low self-esteem and self-centred attitude.

I am really not going to waste my time writing to you anymore so I am going
to say this only once. If next time you see a posting from me in this
newsgroup please feel free NOT to post any replies because they are not
welcome anymore and will be ignored.

Date: 18 Oct 2005 08:49:34
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129594541.4dc400e1a5b62ea5e7332335cd40b423@teranews...
>
> "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:43543c61$0$25793
> > Yup, only after with the help of your Chessmaster (yet again showing how
> > thick he is). Tell me how did you find the quiz in the first place?
>
> Yes keep saying that. You might believe it after a while. Because as
> everyone has seen you managed to find a WRONG solution without using a
> chessprogram. Well that's great for you. Keep up the good work.

Thank you for the encouragement. My intention for the WRONG solution was
clarified already...

> And
> whatsmore you cannot accept that you were wrong, even when other people
have
> told you and the fact that you do not know the basic definitions of a
forced
> mate and cooperative play.

I didn't recall you are the one who defined them.

> But what is really funny, is that eventhough your English is so bad, you
> seem to think that its the other people's fault that they do not
understand
> you. Well, I think that combined with your bad language is a good
indication
> of your low self-esteem and self-centred attitude.

Yes, my English is very bad (Its not my first language). My self-esteem is
nobody business!!!

>
> I am really not going to waste my time writing to you anymore so I am
going
> to say this only once. If next time you see a posting from me in this
> newsgroup please feel free NOT to post any replies because they are not
> welcome anymore and will be ignored.

And newsgroups belonged to you only?...why not stay with the moderated
forums (plenty around).

Date: 17 Oct 2005 22:49:17
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Date: 16 Oct 2005 13:34:31
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1129406037.69b791cd9aa5697d545fbe98f8aceabf@teranews...
> > Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> > > "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
<snip >

> I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2 and
> c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz alive
(I
> Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
> which indeed proved me wrong.

Found even shorter mating net (Chess Program assisted) for the Pawns at a2
and a3, i.e. 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. a3 Kc8 4. a4 Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Kc7 7.
c5 Kc8 8. a7Nb4 9. c6 Na6 10. c7 Nc7. May be someone would call this White
is cooperating as well.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 01:43:37
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

>
> I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2 and
> c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz alive (I
> Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
> which indeed proved me wrong.

And I said your solution was wrong. Because there is NO FORCED mate with
13 moves. It will only work if white cooperates and if that happens why
not have a mate in 5 or 3 moves?. The quiz is still the same only
shorter if the pawn is at c3.

>
> And I haven't went through the Mate at 17 Moves for Pawns at a2 and
> c2...Yes, end of this pointless discussion.
>
>

Date: 16 Oct 2005 09:01:30
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129423377.1f74f41433107102ab95fb8e8f4f1b4f@teranews...
> >
> > I gave the combination in shortest possible mate with your Pawns at a2
and
> > c3. And I did mentioned it was trivial just to kept your error quiz
alive (I
> > Knew about the 15 Moves without Chess Program). You confirmed your error
> > which indeed proved me wrong.
>
> And I said your solution was wrong. Because there is NO FORCED mate with
> 13 moves. It will only work if white cooperates and if that happens why
> not have a mate in 5 or 3 moves?. The quiz is still the same only
> shorter if the pawn is at c3.

Yeah, stupid me indeed. Why did I mate with 5 or 3 moves in the c3-Pawn
Position (considering K+N vs. K is Draw - what a prove that would be if
found flawed)? Or you are simply too thick for everyone. And if you know
your Chess Game well White was not considered as "cooperating" in the 13
Moves Mate. The 17 Moves Mate is lot more interesting.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 02:13:30
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:

> Yeah, stupid me indeed. Why did I mate with 5 or 3 moves in the c3-Pawn
> Position (considering K+N vs. K is Draw - what a prove that would be if
> found flawed)? Or you are simply too thick for everyone. And if you know
> your Chess Game well White was not considered as "cooperating" in the 13
> Moves Mate. The 17 Moves Mate is lot more interesting.
>
>

First of all keep the personal abuse to yourself.
Second everyone knows about the K+N v K pattern and the use of the a2 pawn
Third if you still believe that you can mate white in 13 moves lets play
it out and you will see you are wrong.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 02:17:47
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> Few Good Chessmen wrote:
>
>> Yeah, stupid me indeed. Why did I mate with 5 or 3 moves in the c3-Pawn
>> Position (considering K+N vs. K is Draw - what a prove that would be if
>> found flawed)? Or you are simply too thick for everyone. And if you know
>> your Chess Game well White was not considered as "cooperating" in the 13
>> Moves Mate. The 17 Moves Mate is lot more interesting.
>>
>>
>
> First of all keep the personal abuse to yourself.
> Second everyone knows about the K+N v K pattern and the use of the a2 pawn
> Third if you still believe that you can mate white in 13 moves lets play
> it out and you will see you are wrong.

NOTE: Two programs (Chessmaster 10 and Fritz 8) did NOT find any mate
with 13 moves (the original "flawed" position). Instead they both found
15 moves. Are you THAT confident that you can find a FORCED mate with 13?

Date: 16 Oct 2005 09:58:29
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129425427.182d97b613f5017678c067788f4e7a9d@teranews...
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> > Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, stupid me indeed. Why did I mate with 5 or 3 moves in the c3-Pawn
> >> Position (considering K+N vs. K is Draw - what a prove that would be if
> >> found flawed)? Or you are simply too thick for everyone. And if you
know
> >> your Chess Game well White was not considered as "cooperating" in the
13
> >> Moves Mate. The 17 Moves Mate is lot more interesting.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > First of all keep the personal abuse to yourself.
> > Second everyone knows about the K+N v K pattern and the use of the a2
pawn
> > Third if you still believe that you can mate white in 13 moves lets play
> > it out and you will see you are wrong.
>
> NOTE: Two programs (Chessmaster 10 and Fritz 8) did NOT find any mate
> with 13 moves (the original "flawed" position). Instead they both found
> 15 moves. Are you THAT confident that you can find a FORCED mate with 13?

Just goes to show how thick you are if haven't realise it is not possible
(my intention was explained earlier)...worse still you needed the Chess
Program to prove that. Please go back to your 17 Moves Mate (Pawns at a2 and
c2) and sleep on.

Date: 16 Oct 2005 03:02:37
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> Just goes to show how thick you are if haven't realise it is not possible
> (my intention was explained earlier)...worse still you needed the Chess
> Program to prove that. Please go back to your 17 Moves Mate (Pawns at a2 and
> c2) and sleep on.

Are you actually trying to make some point here or just getting off on
personal abuse?

Date: 16 Oct 2005 10:06:38
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:1129428117.67497d439446ecde99b6a21f9c99df7f@teranews...
> Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> > Just goes to show how thick you are if haven't realise it is not
possible
> > (my intention was explained earlier)...worse still you needed the Chess
> > Program to prove that. Please go back to your 17 Moves Mate (Pawns at a2
and
> > c2) and sleep on.
>
> Are you actually trying to make some point here or just getting off on
> personal abuse?

You obiously can the point on personal abuse. But why can't you get the
Chess Points?...this is going nowhere. I'll stop here for this topic. Sorry
for the useless bandwidth.

Date: 14 Oct 2005 18:43:33
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Few Good Chessmen wrote:
> "Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1129243983.8d1ea2fd7b962dc98375ce14c80fbd71@teranews...
>
>>Ok the position is like this:
>>
>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>
>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>
>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>9-10 moves)
>
>
> With the given congifuration for Black to delivers the Checkmate could only
> be tranformed into any following final positions (Taking the known fact K+N
> vs. K is Theoretical Drawn):
> 1. 8/8/8/8/8/2P5/P1n5/K1k5 w - - 0 1
> With both White Pawns untouched it is very unlikely that White King would
> moves from a8 into self-confinement at a1. Furthermore, this position is
> illegal.
>
> 2. K1k5/P7/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1
> White wouldn't be such cooperative, i.e. 1... Nd5 2. a3 (or 2.2
> K7/P1k5/1n6/8/8/2P5/8/8 w - - 0 1 arised from 2. a4 Kc7 3. a5 Kc8 4. a6 Kc7
> 5. a7 Nb6) 2. ... Kc7 3. a4 Kc8 4. a5 Kc7 5. a6 Kc8 6. a7 Nb6. And this does
> not fulfill your stipulation of Mate in 17 Moves even after arriving at
> 8/8/8/K1k5/2P5/2n5/P7/8 w - - 0 6 with 1... Nd5 2. c4 Nc3 3. Ka7 Kc7 4. Ka6
> Kc6 5. Ka5 Kc5 where 6. a4 (if 6. a3 then 6. ... Kc4 is Draw) 6. ... Na2. 7.
> Ka6 Kc6 8. Ka7 (if 8. a5 Nb4 9. Ka7 Kc7 10. c5 K6 11. ... Kc5 is Draw) 8.
> ... Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. a5 Nc3 11. a6 Na4 12. a7 Kc7 13. c5 Kc8 14. c6 Nb6,
> etc.
>
> These are just typical patterns where the a2-Pawn and a8-Corner plays a
> crucial role for Black's Knight mating net. To Checkmate elsewhere on the
> board is impossible and I think there's a mistake in your 17 Moves play. The
> forced line is 1... Nc6 2. c4 Kc7 3. c5 Kc8 4. a4 (4. a3 Kc7 5. a4 Kc8 6. a5
> Kc7 7. a6 Kc8 8. a7 Na5 9. c6 Nc4 10. c7 Nb6) 4. ... Kc7 5. a5 Kc8 6. a6 Na5
> 7. c6 Nc4 8. Ka7 Kc7 9. Ka8 Kc8 10. c7 Kxc7 11. Ka7 Nd6 12. Ka8 Nc8 13. a7
> Nb6 also failed to meet your stipulation.
>
> Prove me wrong otherwise in trivial views above with your 17 Moves.
>
>
>
Small mistake in the stating position for white
King at a8 pawn at a2 and pawn at c2
The solution is

1..Nc6 2.a3 {c3} Kc7 3.a4 {c3} Kb6 {Kc8} 4.a5+ {c3} Kc7! 5.a6 {c3} Ne5
{Nb8, Kb6, Kc8} 6.c3 {Ka7} Nc4 {Nc6,Nd7} 7.Ka7 Nb6 8.c4 Nd7 9.Ka8 Kb6
10.c5+ Kc6 11.Ka7 Kc7 12.Ka8 Ne5 13.Ka7 Nc6+ 14.Ka8 Kc8 15.a7 Ne5
{Na5,Ne7,Nd4,Nb4,Nd8} 16.c6 Nc4 17.c7 Nb6#

But I am interested in your forced position before (with the original
mistaken position). Lets play this out
1..Nc6
2. a4

Date: 14 Oct 2005 03:02:55
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
> Ok the position is like this:
>
> White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>
> Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>
> Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> 9-10 moves)

Is this not 5-man tablebase material?

Major Cat

Date: 14 Oct 2005 12:11:21
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Major Cat wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
>>Ok the position is like this:
>>
>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>
>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>
>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>9-10 moves)
>
>
> Is this not 5-man tablebase material?
>
> Major Cat
>
You know...I would love to answer your question but I have no idea what
you just said

Date: 14 Oct 2005 19:07:48
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
> Major Cat wrote:
> > Vasileios Zografos wrote:
> >
> >>Ok the position is like this:
> >>
> >>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
> >>
> >>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
> >>
> >>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
> >>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
> >>9-10 moves)
> >
> >
> > Is this not 5-man tablebase material?
> >
> > Major Cat
> >
> You know...I would love to answer your question but I have no idea what
> you just said

This ending involves 5 pieces. All 5-piece endings have been
exhaustively
analyzed and the results have been tabulated in a Nalimov tablebase.
However,
I do not know if the tablebase compilation is perfect...

Major Cat

P.S. Some modern chess-playing programs rely on such tablebase
compilations
to play endings (something like employing an electronic "closing" or
"finish-
ing" book).

Date: 15 Oct 2005 01:34:33
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: nice little quiz

Major Cat wrote:
> Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>
>>Major Cat wrote:
>>
>>>Vasileios Zografos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ok the position is like this:
>>>>
>>>>White: King at a8, pawn at a2 pawn at c3
>>>>
>>>>Black: King at c8, knight at e7
>>>>
>>>>Black to move and to checkmate white in 17 moves.
>>>>Note that Chessmaster 10 cannot find that checkmate (only at about after
>>>>9-10 moves)
>>>
>>>
>>>Is this not 5-man tablebase material?
>>>
>>>Major Cat
>>>
>>
>>You know...I would love to answer your question but I have no idea what
>>you just said
>
>
> This ending involves 5 pieces. All 5-piece endings have been
> exhaustively
> analyzed and the results have been tabulated in a Nalimov tablebase.
> However,
> I do not know if the tablebase compilation is perfect...
>
> Major Cat
>
> P.S. Some modern chess-playing programs rely on such tablebase
> compilations
> to play endings (something like employing an electronic "closing" or
> "finish-
> ing" book).
>
gotcha