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Main
Date: 03 Dec 2005 02:11:06
From: Magnulus
Subject: Fritz 9 question
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In the 3D view is there any way to turn off that annoying little orb that
sits in the bottom left corner of the 3D view and eats real estate?
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Date: 03 Dec 2005 17:24:04
From: CeeBee
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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"Magnulus" <Magnulus@bellsouth.net > wrote in rec.games.chess.computer:
> In the 3D view is there any way to turn off that annoying little orb
> that
> sits in the bottom left corner of the 3D view and eats real estate?
Use the normal 3D view. Click settings (the tools icon below the 3D board,
next to the "screenshot" icon). The window opens.
Click "general". Uncheck "show navigation control". Click "apply"
--
CeeBee
***The Place Where The Faith And The Flavour Meet***
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Date: 03 Dec 2005 13:28:10
From: Magnulus
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Thanks.
OK, another Fritz question. Fritz seems to play pretty aggressively and
grabby. Meaning in "neutral" situations Fritz tends to grab pieces and
favoring exchange of material. What exactly does the aggression setting do
in the engine parameters?
I'm not a strong player, and Fritz on lower settings seems sort of
brutally mechanical with an occasional blunder. I play alot in friend mode.
I've tried Crafty and that seems to suit me better, even though in engine
vs. engine matches I have done Fritz invariably beats Crafty, even with
Crafty being multithreaded. So, if you want a good chess engine to both
play against and comment on your games, which is best?
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Date: 05 Dec 2005 14:18:23
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Magnulus <Magnulus@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> I'm not a strong player, and Fritz on lower settings seems sort of
> brutally mechanical with an occasional blunder. I play alot in friend
> mode.
Try handicap mode instead of friend mode. Friend mode occasionally
blunders material to keep the game level but plays like a GM between
blunders. Handicap mode plays a more even strength of chess.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Impossible Gnome (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a smiling garden ornament but it
can't exist!
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Date: 03 Dec 2005 17:22:53
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Magnulus wrote:
>
> Thanks.
>
> OK, another Fritz question. Fritz seems to play pretty aggressively
I assume that you mean that the program
actively creates threats and can be viewed
as being the attacker, right?
> and
> grabby. Meaning in "neutral" situations Fritz tends to grab pieces
Unprotected pieces or pieces worth sacrificing
unequal material for?
> and
> favoring exchange of material.
If there are no other good reasons for such
exchanges initiated by the program, it may
be a feature intended to help human opponents
who may not be able to deal with tactical
complexity for too too many moves...
> What exactly does the aggression setting do
> in the engine parameters?
In general, an aggressive computer personality
initiates many threats invariably involving
pawn advances in conjunction with complex
tactics aiming at opening up the position.
Sometimes, the computer makes positional
sacrifices as well.
>
> I'm not a strong player, and Fritz on lower settings seems sort of
> brutally mechanical with an occasional blunder. I play alot in friend mode.
This appears to be a consensus opinion! 8 >)
> I've tried Crafty and that seems to suit me better,
Great, stick with it, then.
> even though in engine
> vs. engine matches I have done Fritz invariably beats Crafty, even with
> Crafty being multithreaded.
This is rather immaterial given your playing
strength.
> So, if you want a good chess engine to both
> play against and comment on your games, which is best?
Perhaps somebody else will come up with a
fabulous suggestion! 8 >) For the time being,
I would suggest that you play "OTB" chess against
the engine that suits you better (Crafty?). As
for analysis, you can always save your games in
PGN format and import them into your analysis
program of choice (Fritz?).
Regards,
Major Cat
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Date: 04 Dec 2005 07:25:54
From: Magnulus
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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"Major Cat" <epikuros@istar.ca > wrote in message
news:439244ED.4715@istar.ca...
> I assume that you mean that the program
> actively creates threats and can be viewed
> as being the attacker, right?
There are situations where Crafty will not grab a piece resulting in an
even exchange of material, but Fritz will. Though I'm still learning
about the difference between material and positional play, it seems Fritz is
"greedier" in material and views the game mostly as about grabbing pieces.
OTOH, it's also a strategy that seems brutally efficient, especially with
the latest version of Fritz, whereas Crafty doesn't seem to have improved
much at al, even if it plays a nice game in Friend mode. Crafty, OTOH,
seems to be about as equal as Fritz, if not better, in protecting and
attacking the king.
BTW, I'm using the same Chessbase Fritz interface for each engine,.
> In general, an aggressive computer personality
> initiates many threats invariably involving
> pawn advances in conjunction with complex
> tactics aiming
Yes, yes... but in the Chessbase UI engine parameters I can select an
"aggression" level. What exactly does this do?
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Date: 04 Dec 2005 11:20:30
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Magnulus wrote:
>
> "Major Cat" <epikuros@istar.ca> wrote in message
> news:439244ED.4715@istar.ca...
> > I assume that you mean that the program
> > actively creates threats and can be viewed
> > as being the attacker, right?
>
> There are situations where Crafty will not grab a piece resulting in an
> even exchange of material, but Fritz will. Though I'm still learning
> about the difference between material and positional play, it seems Fritz is
> "greedier" in material and views the game mostly as about grabbing pieces.
Most probably, the program has been coded
to aim at playing shorter games, given
your settings...
> OTOH, it's also a strategy that seems brutally efficient, especially with
> the latest version of Fritz, whereas Crafty doesn't seem to have improved
> much at al, even if it plays a nice game in Friend mode.
If, by "brutally efficient", you mean
that Fritz kills you in the late middle
game or end game proper, well, yes, this
is probably why the program is "racing"
through the game.
> Crafty, OTOH,
> seems to be about as equal as Fritz, if not better, in protecting and
> attacking the king.
Yes, no two programs are coded the same.
>
> BTW, I'm using the same Chessbase Fritz interface for each engine,.
>
> > In general, an aggressive computer personality
> > initiates many threats invariably involving
> > pawn advances in conjunction with complex
> > tactics aiming
>
> Yes, yes... but in the Chessbase UI engine parameters I can select an
> "aggression" level. What exactly does this do?
Look, computer programs generally give you a
choice among 5 _generic_ personality types:
Aggressive
Active
Normal
Solid
Defensive
The specifics of the evaluative function code
are seldom made public (Crafty is an exception)
by the programmers who attempt to make a living
out of "secrets" like these.
Regards,
Major Cat
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Date: 05 Dec 2005 20:09:03
From: Magnulus
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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I guess I should not complain too much. While Fritz doesn't play what I
think of as perfectly like a human, and least it thinks quickly. OTOH, with
the Chessmaster games, on some of the midrange personalities (Elo's all
above 1000), the computer will sit and think, and think, and still turn out
weak moves. Fritz, OTOH, seems to think fairly quickly.
On the whole I really like Fritz and I'll probably try another Chessbase
engine in the future. I definitely like it better than Chessmaster, I
should have jumped-ship years ago. It's sort of disappointing how much
Chessmaster has stagnated, as years ago it was a good chess program
(personally I had more fun as a kid with Kasparov's Gambit, though,
especially the advice that would pop up in videos during the game, sort of
an instant annotation). However, as a teaching tool Fritz is better and the
natural language annotations are alot more useful. I played Chessmaster
off-and-on for years, never feeling like my game was improving much at all-
too big a jump between the low-level personalities and the intermediate
ones.
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Date: 05 Dec 2005 21:30:49
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Magnulus wrote:
>
> I guess I should not complain too much.
Depends on what you are complaining
about! 8 >)
> While Fritz doesn't play what I
> think of as perfectly like a human,
No program does that, even with the...
Turk!
> and least it thinks quickly.
Why should this be important in
OTB play against the machine though?
> OTOH, with
> the Chessmaster games, on some of the midrange personalities (Elo's all
> above 1000), the computer will sit and think, and think, and still turn out
> weak moves.
This _may_ be the point, namely to
try and emulate the kinds of moves
that moderately strong human players
may make in OTB play _even_ when they
have plenty of time available for
thinking.
> Fritz, OTOH, seems to think fairly quickly.
I am curious, how did you compare the two
programs on the basis of your criterion?
>
> On the whole I really like Fritz and I'll probably try another Chessbase
> engine in the future. I definitely like it better than Chessmaster, I
> should have jumped-ship years ago. It's sort of disappointing how much
> Chessmaster has stagnated, as years ago it was a good chess program
> (personally I had more fun as a kid with Kasparov's Gambit, though,
> especially the advice that would pop up in videos during the game, sort of
> an instant annotation). However, as a teaching tool Fritz is better and the
> natural language annotations are alot more useful.
Many posters have expressed a preference for
Fritz on the basis of what is being perceived
as superior analysis and (not technical) support
features as compared to the Chessmaster family
of programs.
> I played Chessmaster
> off-and-on for years, never feeling like my game was improving much at all-
There may be other important reasons for this
...stagnation! However, if you dislike Chess-
master as a _simulated_ OTB human opponent as
well (analysis and support features aside, that
is), well, it is time, perhaps, to try out other
alternatives.
> too big a jump between the low-level personalities and the intermediate
> ones.
Here is my advice and, please, remember that
although this has worked for me it may not work
for you. Whatever program you choose to practice
or just have fun playing OTB chess, stick with
either the 5 generic personalities that I have
mentioned in a previous post or, if you want to
be more adventurous, play against GM personalities.
Now, to water things down so that you have a
chance, just reduce the machine's time control
limit drastically enough while keeping yours
at _your_ desired level. This is referred to as
handicapping your opponent by means of asymmetrical
time controls. Avoid all these partially lobotomized
personalities such as "strong club member" and good
luck to you! 8 >)
Regards,
Major Cat
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Date: 06 Dec 2005 10:56:27
From: Magnulus
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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"Major Cat" <epikuros@istar.ca > wrote in message
news:43952209.512D@istar.ca...
>> Fritz, OTOH, seems to think fairly quickly.
>
> I am curious, how did you compare the two
> programs on the basis of your criterion?
>
Totally subjective criterion. I'm sure if I had a stopwatch I would
notice a definite difference, though.
> Many posters have expressed a preference for
> Fritz on the basis of what is being perceived
> as superior analysis and (not technical) support
> features as compared to the Chessmaster family
> of programs.
Even Chessmaster's technical and aesthetic merits as a program are
starting to, for lack of a better word, suck. The CM 10 interface is just
god-awfully ugly (it has a blue "clear" interface that is a bit tiring to
look at, especially on a bright LCD). And it's always amazing when a
company can ship a game with a dozen chess sets and most of them are
useless. Just give me the basic Staunton pieces and a clean interface any
day (in this respect, CM 9000 is better).
>
> Now, to water things down so that you have a
> chance, just reduce the machine's time control
> limit drastically enough while keeping yours
> at _your_ desired level.
Sounds good. In the past alot of the old chess games did not let you set
asymetrical time controls. I have been starting to just play against the
default strengths occasionally. Of course I get beaten very badly but
perhaps it is the best learning tool, even if its not great for the ego.
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Date: 06 Dec 2005 12:43:39
From: Major Cat
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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Magnulus wrote:
>
> "Major Cat" <epikuros@istar.ca> wrote in message
> news:43952209.512D@istar.ca...
> >> Fritz, OTOH, seems to think fairly quickly.
> >
> > I am curious, how did you compare the two
> > programs on the basis of your criterion?
> >
>
> Totally subjective criterion. I'm sure if I had a stopwatch I would
> notice a definite difference, though.
>
> > Many posters have expressed a preference for
> > Fritz on the basis of what is being perceived
> > as superior analysis and (not technical) support
> > features as compared to the Chessmaster family
> > of programs.
>
> Even Chessmaster's technical and aesthetic merits as a program are
> starting to, for lack of a better word, suck. The CM 10 interface is just
> god-awfully ugly (it has a blue "clear" interface that is a bit tiring to
> look at, especially on a bright LCD). And it's always amazing when a
> company can ship a game with a dozen chess sets and most of them are
> useless. Just give me the basic Staunton pieces and a clean interface any
> day (in this respect, CM 9000 is better).
If the program interface is not to your
liking and the program does not give you
the means to modify it, well, this is un-
fortunate and a great example of what happens
when a program's features are not as flexible
as one may have wished them to be. On the
other hand, the "useless" chess sets can
safely be _ignored_ which _is_ a flexible
feature of sorts... 8 >)
>
> >
> > Now, to water things down so that you have a
> > chance, just reduce the machine's time control
> > limit drastically enough while keeping yours
> > at _your_ desired level.
>
> Sounds good. In the past alot of the old chess games did not let you set
> asymetrical time controls.
Ironically, the older Chessmaster versions
_did_ allow this!
> I have been starting to just play against the
> default strengths occasionally. Of course I get beaten very badly but
> perhaps it is the best learning tool, even if its not great for the ego.
Besides ego bruising, being serially demolished
by a _simulated _ GM may not be the best way to
improve. I use the following "formula" when I
experiment with asymmetrical time controls: For
every 6 games I play, I expect to lose 3, draw 2
and, yes, win 1!
Regards,
Major Cat
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Date: 04 Dec 2005 13:14:00
From: CeeBee
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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"Magnulus" <Magnulus@bellsouth.net > wrote in rec.games.chess.computer:
> Yes, yes... but in the Chessbase UI engine parameters I can select an
> "aggression" level. What exactly does this do?
Well, what do _you_ think it does? What do you think the difference is
between a player playing aggressively or defensively?
--
CeeBee
***The Place Where The Faith And The Flavour Meet***
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Date: 03 Dec 2005 18:02:42
From: CeeBee
Subject: Re: Fritz 9 question
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CeeBee <ceebeechester@start.com.au > wrote in rec.games.chess.computer:
> Use the normal 3D view.
i.e. "windowed".
--
CeeBee
***The Place Where The Faith And The Flavour Meet***
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