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Main
Date: 08 Nov 2008 21:10:39
From: SAT W-7
Subject: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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I am starting to like random chess..
white set up is
A-I-Bishop
B-I-King
C-I-Knight
D-I-Queen
E-I-Rook
F-I-Rook
G-I-Knight
H-I-Bishop
Black set up is
A-8-Rook
B-8-Knight
C-8-Knight
D-8-Queen
E-8-King
F-8-Rook
G-8-Bishop
H-8-Bishop
All pawns in same squares..
NO , castling to make the game even harder.
Anyone want to play my Ivan this game ? Man against machine ..
Or anyone want to play computer vs computer at this set up ?
My question is ..
Would there be less draws in games if they were random like this ?
If no one wants to play this game vs Ivan then i will ...Looking at the
set up the white has the advantage in my opinion ..I will be white..
I thought id win the other games too and i lost. ha ha.....Ivan thinks
hard from move one since there is no opining book ....
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Date: 10 Nov 2008 00:04:09
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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* SAT W-7 <[email protected] > (06:10) schrieb:
> Would there be less draws in games if they were random like this ?
Surely. It's unfair.
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 10 Nov 2008 11:21:12
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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* SAT W-7 <[email protected] > (09:51) schrieb:
> How is it unfair , it was all random....
I think I explained that before.
The unfairness comes after the random. Once the pieces are randomly
picked, one side's pieces are better placed.
Adding chance to chess perverts the hole game.
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 11 Nov 2008 04:08:28
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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* SAT W-7 <[email protected] > (17:56) schrieb:
> I respectfully disagree with you ...
>
> Under my rules it is fair ....
Yeah, fair as a lottery is fair.
The fact about a lottery is that it's over once the random did its job.
In your game I still have to play a lost game. Where's the fun in that?
Every other variant of chess I know has as much symmetry as possible for
both the sides. What is your reason to drop that?
> You want to play my Ivan and you be white ?
>
> Hey , how is your chess program coming along ? You can test it vs
> Ivan ..
Unfortunately it's still where it was 2 months ago and not able to play
any kind of game.
> In the Ivan vs GC games i have played , i can tell they are about even
> in strength + it seems GC has a little stronger middle game but Ivan
> has a little stronger end game .......
> GC seems to play better as white too ..
Well, my Finalfun aimlessly pushes pawns forward as white, which is much
better than the pointless forth and back moving of a rook it does as black.
> I mite play the game out if i can not find some one to play it or if no
> one wants to play this game computer vs computer ..
I don't want to play a chess variant with an up front lottery built in.
> I mite record the game too, i have never recorded a game in my life ..
Isn't every player in a tournament forced to do that?
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 15 Nov 2008 06:50:46
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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* Sanny <[email protected] > (16:19) schrieb:
>> > Lets start a new game with GetClub Beginner(10 sec / move) vs Ivan 80
>> > sec / move.
>>
>> I have a different idea. Lets start a game with GetClub Advance level
>> vs glaurung (2 sec / move).
>
> Advance takes 40 min / move. I think Master level will be a better
> option. Master Level thinks just 10 min / move.
GetClub vs. Basicfun?
Basicfun has no levels. You can have white and choose GetClub's level.
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 15 Nov 2008 08:08:13
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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* SAT W-7 <[email protected] > (07:19) schrieb:
> I have never heard of Basicfun or Gluarung ..
>
> That mite be a good battle ..
Google Glaurung.
Basicfun is a weak engine I co-authored some years ago.
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 14 Nov 2008 22:19:26
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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I have never heard of Basicfun or Gluarung ..
That mite be a good battle ..
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Date: 10 Nov 2008 21:59:58
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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I have never played in a tournament before . I have never recorded a
game ..How good of a player do you think i am ? ha ha ha.....
Why not play me and i will take black , i see problems for white both
bishops aiming at the A-2 and B-2 squares and both Knights B-8 and C-8
...ready to attack the white king..
Yes i know GC pushes pawns but sometimes my Ivan which is a commercial
chess program from Excalibur has problems dealing with them.
I have tried to get HELPBOT to play Ivan but he does not want too , he
would rather play GC..
As for the pieces being symetrical , i just find it more exciting to
put the pieces in a bag and take tongs and pull them out one at a time
and how ever they come out is how i play ..Of course the bishops go on
different colors ..An no castling to make the game that much harder.
I have had ivan for years and lost so many games to it , i have only won
one game on the strongest level and lost 400 + games ..
It has a hand full of features that i have never used before so i
decided to use the one where i can set up individual pieces , and it was
easy so then i started thinking about a game of random chess and doing
it my way , and i find it exciting to play ..After awhile the novelty
will wear off but for now i like it ....
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Date: 14 Nov 2008 22:27:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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On Nov 15, 10:50=A0am, Simon Krahnke <[email protected] > wrote:
> * Sanny <[email protected]> (16:19) schrieb:
>
> >> > Lets start a new game with GetClub Beginner(10 sec / move) vs Ivan 8=
0
> >> > sec / move.
>
> >> I have a different idea. Lets start a game with GetClub Advance level
> >> vs glaurung (2 sec / move).
>
> > Advance takes 40 min / move. I think Master level will be a better
> > option. Master Level thinks just 10 min / move.
>
> GetClub vs. Basicfun?
>
> Basicfun has no levels. You can have white and choose GetClub's level.
>
> mfg, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0simon .... l
Lets have a game with Easy Level Vs Basicfun 10 sec / move.
You have already created an account "Simon" at GetClub play a game and
let us know who wins.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 14 Nov 2008 07:19:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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> > Lets start a new game with GetClub Beginner(10 sec / move) vs Ivan 80
> > sec / move.
>
> I have a different idea. Lets start a game with GetClub Advance level
> vs glaurung (2 sec / move).
Advance takes 40 min / move. I think Master level will be a better
option. Master Level thinks just 10 min / move.
> If you want to you can even create a
> "super advance level" that thinks say 12 hours / move. That should
> make an interesting game I think.
>
> Glaurung will not think on the opponents time, and GetClub can have
> the white pieces.
I am sure GetClub will win such a game 2 sec is very small time. Does
Glaurung uses 4 cpu power when working on Quad core? In that case it
is actually thinking 2 * 4 = 8 sec/ move.
Last month GetClub was improved a lot So GetClub Master Level will
give good Challenge to Glaurung
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 13 Nov 2008 21:43:57
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Lets start a new game with GetClub Beginner(10 sec / move) vs Ivan 80
sec / move.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 14 Nov 2008 13:58:48
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
> Lets start a new game with GetClub Beginner(10 sec / move) vs Ivan 80
> sec / move.
I have a different idea. Lets start a game with GetClub Advance level
vs glaurung (2 sec / move). If you want to you can even create a
"super advance level" that thinks say 12 hours / move. That should
make an interesting game I think.
Glaurung will not think on the opponents time, and GetClub can have
the white pieces.
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
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Date: 14 Nov 2008 22:17:56
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Hey this is good , Sanny you play Peter and i will move my white pieces
on Ivan the same as Sanny and see if my black pieces make the same moves
as Glaurug ...But i know they will make different moves but will ivan be
able to beat GC on the higher level ? + I can see where Ivan made a
mistake because i am sure Glaurung is stronger than Ivan ..
Can you two play the game here ? You know start a new thread .....
Would my idea work ? I have no idea .
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Date: 16 Nov 2008 20:31:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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On Nov 16, 5:59=A0pm, Peter Osterlund <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny <[email protected]> writes:
> >> > Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>
> >> Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
> >> running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
>
> > Further Quad core is 2 times faster in general.
>
> No it's not. Why do you say so?
>
Because of Moores law which says Computer speedsdouble every 18
months. Since Quad core came after dual core they should be Twice fast
due to small chips and 2 times faster than dual core due to 4 cores
instead of 2.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Nov 2008 06:51:44
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
> On Nov 16, 5:59 pm, Peter Osterlund <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Sanny <[email protected]> writes:
>> >> > Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>>
>> >> Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
>> >> running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
>>
>> > Further Quad core is 2 times faster in general.
>>
>> No it's not. Why do you say so?
>
> Because of Moores law which says Computer speedsdouble every 18
> months. Since Quad core came after dual core they should be Twice fast
> due to small chips and 2 times faster than dual core due to 4 cores
> instead of 2.
My dual core is a later model than my quad core, so your general
comment about what Moores law should imply is irrelevant. (And even if
it wasn't irrelevant, it's just not true for the quad core vs dual
core case, according to online benchmarks I have read about the Intel
Core2 technology.)
In my own benchmarks I have run on the two CPUs, a single core on the
2.6GHz dual core CPU is faster than a single core on the 2.4GHz quad
core.
Please refrain from presenting your wild guesses as if they were
facts.
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
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Date: 16 Nov 2008 03:45:17
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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> > Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>
> Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
> running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
GetClub do not take advantage of multiple cores On Quad Core So
Glaurung was having 2 * 4 = 8 sec / move
Further Quad core is 2 times faster in general.
So we can assume Glaurung was taking 16 sec time and GetClub was
taking 500 sec time.
Still Glaurung is taking very little time. I think this game was
unlucky for getclub. Try a few more then only we can take the
assumption.
Try Glaurung on the dual core and GetClub on the Quad core.
Let me know how many threads do you see when playing GetClub? Are
there any Lazy threads wasting resources?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 Nov 2008 18:34:28
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Peter Osterlund <[email protected] > writes:
> Sanny <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Who will take white? Since peter has Computer with internet access he
>> can finish a game and show us the game.
>>
>> Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug 2 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
>> will win this game.
>
> You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
> game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at least
> 12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
> move.
Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
> Still Glaurung is taking very little time. I think this game was
> unlucky for getclub. Try a few more then only we can take the
> assumption.
I played 5 more games against the master level, and 1 game against the
advance level. Glaurung was thinking 2 sec / move, on a quad core CPU,
no thinking on the opponents time. Glaurung won all games, so it
doesn't appear to be luck.
I guess getclub is using some kind of selective search algorithm, and
that's why it sometimes makes simple tactical errors even after a very
long thinking time. Either that, or it's buggy. How else can you
explain how it sometimes misses a mate-in-5 or less when its search
depth indicates depth 15 or more.
Based on the above, I further guess that even if getclub was thinking
1 week / move, it would still lose against glaurung at 2 sec / move.
Here are the games:
[Date "2008.11.19"]
[White "GetClub master level"]
[Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 d6 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. d4 cxd4 6. Nxd4 e6 7. Be3 Be7
8. Nxc6 bxc6 9. Qd3 d5 10. exd5 exd5 11. Bb3 O-O 12. O-O-O a5 13. f3 Be6
14. Bd4 Qb8 15. g3 Nd7 16. Ba4 Qb7 17. Rhe1 Rfb8 18. b3 Ba3+ 19. Kb1 Nb6
20. Bxb6 Qxb6 21. Re5 Bd6 22. Rh5 g6 23. Rh6 Bf8 24. Rh4 Bg7 25. Ne2 Bf5
26. Qd2 c5 27. Kc1 Qa6 28. Re1 Rd8 29. Ng1 Rab8 30. Qe3 Qf6 31. Kd2 Qb2 32.
Rc1 d4 33. Qg5 h6 34. Qf4 d3 35. Bd7 Bc3+ 36. Ke3 Qxc1+ 37. Kf2 Qxc2+ 38.
Kf1 d2 39. Qxd2 Qxd2
{White resigns} 0-1
[Date "2008.11.21"]
[White "GetClub master level"]
[Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. d3 e6 6. O-O Be7 7. Bf4 e5 8.
Bd2 O-O 9. Nd5 Nxd5 10. Bxd5 Be6 11. Bxe6 fxe6 12. c3 Qb6 13. b3 Qa6 14. c4
b5 15. Ng5 Nd4 16. Be3 bxc4 17. dxc4 Bxg5 18. Bxg5 Qb7 19. Qg4 a5 20. Rfd1
a4 21. Rab1 Qf7 22. Rb2 axb3 23. axb3 Qg6 24. f3 Rfb8 25. Rdb1 Ra6 26. Be3
Qxg4 27. fxg4 Ra3 28. Bxd4 exd4 29. g5 Kf7 30. Kh1 Kg6 31. h4 Kh5 32. g3
Kg4 33. e5 dxe5 34. Kg2 e4 35. Kh2 e3 36. Rf1 d3 37. Rf4+ Kh5 38. Rg2 Raxb3
39. Rf1 Rb1 40. Rgg1 Rxf1 41. Rxf1 e2 42. g4+ Kxh4
{White resigns} 0-1
[Date "2008.11.22"]
[White "GetClub master level"]
[Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bxf6 Bxf6 8.
Nd5 Bg7 9. Be2 Bg4 10. Qb3 Bxf3 11. Qxf3 Nc6 12. O-O Nxd4 13. Qd3 e6 14.
Ne3 Qh4 15. Bg4 h5 16. g3 Qg5 17. h4 Qa5 18. Be2 Rae8 19. a3 f5 20. exf5
exf5 21. Bd1 Qe5 22. Nd5 c6 23. Nf4 Kh7 24. Rb1 Qe4 25. f3 Qe5 26. Kh1 Bh6
27. Ng2 f4 28. gxf4 Bxf4 29. Kg1 Bh2+ 30. Kh1 Qg3 31. c5 Qh3 32. Qxg6+ Kxg6
33. Bc2+ Nxc2 34. Rfe1 Bg3+ 35. Kg1 Qh2+
{White resigns} 0-1
[Date "2008.11.22"]
[White "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Black "GetClub master level"]
[Result "1-0"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. h3 c5 7. d5 e5 8. Bg5
h6 9. Be3 a5 10. Bd3 b6 11. O-O Re8 12. Bc2 Ra7 13. Qd2 g5 14. Ba4 Bd7 15.
Bxd7 Qxd7 16. h4 g4 17. Ne1 g3 18. Bxh6 Ng4 19. Bxg7 gxf2+ 20. Rxf2 Kxg7
21. Qg5+ Kh7 22. Qh5+ Kg7 23. Rf5 Nh6 24. Rg5+ Kh7 25. Nf3 Qe7 26. Nh2 Qf8
27. Ng4 Nd7 28. Rf1 f6 29. Rg6 Qg7 30. Rxg7+ Kxg7 31. Qxh6+ Kg8 32. Qg6+
Kh8 33. Rf5 Nf8 34. Rh5+ Nh7 35. Nxf6
{Black resigns} 1-0
[Date "2008.11.28"]
[White "GetClub advance level"]
[Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 e5 5. Nc3 Be7 6. O-O Nf6 7. d3 O-O 8.
Be3 Nc6 9. Nd5 Nxd5 10. Bxd5 Be6 11. Bxe6 fxe6 12. c3 Qe8 13. Bg5 Bxg5 14.
Nxg5 Qg6 15. Qg4 Rf6 16. h3 Raf8 17. b3 h6 18. Nf3 Qxg4 19. hxg4 Rf4 20. g5
h5 21. Rfe1 h4 22. Re3 b5 23. c4 a6 24. cxb5 axb5 25. Rae1 Nb4 26. Rf1 h3
27. Rd1 Nxa2 28. Rd2 Nb4 29. Kf1 hxg2+ 30. Kxg2 Kf7 31. Kh2 Rh8+ 32. Kg3
Rh1 33. Kg2 Rb1 34. Kh2 Kg6 35. Kg3 Rxb3 36. d4 Rxe3 37. fxe3 Rxe4 38. dxc5
dxc5 39. Kf2 c4 40. Rd6 c3 41. Ng1 Rh4 42. Kg2 Rg4+ 43. Kf2 Rxg1 44. Rxe6+
Kf5 45. Re8 c2 46. Kxg1 c1=Q+ 47. Kg2 Nd3 48. Rf8+ Kg4 49. Rf7 Qd2+
{White resigns} 0-1
[Date "2008.11.29"]
[White "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Black "GetClub master level"]
[Result "1-0"]
1. d4 c5 2. d5 Nf6 3. c4 Ne4 4. e3 d6 5. Bd3 Qa5+ 6. Nd2 Bf5 7. Qb3 Nd7 8.
f3 O-O-O 9. fxe4 Bg4 10. h3 Bh5 11. Nf3 f6 12. O-O Nb6 13. Nb1 Kb8 14. Bd2
Qa6 15. Nc3 Re8 16. Nb5 Bxf3 17. gxf3 g6 18. Kf2 Bg7 19. Rg1 Rhf8 20. Raf1
Bh6 21. Rg4 Bg5 22. Ke2 h5 23. Rg2 Rg8 24. Rfg1 Rg7 25. f4 Bh6 26. Rxg6
Reg8 27. Rxg7 Rxg7 28. Rxg7 Bxg7 29. Qd1 Qa4 30. Qg1 a6 31. Nc3 Qd7 32.
Qxg7 h4 33. Qh8+ Qc8 34. Qxh4 Qc7 35. Qg4 Ka8 36. h4 Kb8 37. h5 Ka8 38. h6
{Black resigns} 1-0
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
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Date: 16 Nov 2008 12:59:17
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
>> > Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>>
>> Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
>> running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
>
> Further Quad core is 2 times faster in general.
No it's not. Why do you say so?
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
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Date: 16 Nov 2008 03:29:33
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
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On Nov 16, 4:20=A0pm, Peter Osterlund <[email protected] > wrote:
> Peter Osterlund <[email protected]> writes:
> > Sanny <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >>> > Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug =A02 sec / move. I am sure GetClu=
b
> >>> > will win this game.
>
> >>> You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
> >>> game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at leas=
t
> >>> 12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
> >>> move.
>
> >> What was the configuration of the System that played Glaurung? Were
> >> the two playing on same computer?
>
> >> Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>
> > Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
> > running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
>
> >> Was Glaurung thinking in opponents time?
>
> > No, that would have ruined the test.
>
> >>> [Date "2008.11.15"]
> >>> [White "GetClub master level"]
> >>> [Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
> >>> [Result "0-1"]
>
> >>> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. Nf3 Ng4 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 Nxf2 7. K=
xf2
> >>> Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6 9. Nb5 O-O 10. Be2 Re8 11. a3 Qe5 12. Bf3 a5 13. Ra2 =
f5 14.
> >>> g3 fxe4 15. Bg2 d5 16. Rf1 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Bg4 18. Qd2 Bf3 19. b3 dxc4 =
20.
> >>> Rc2 b5 21. b4 Bb6 22. bxa5 Rxa5 23. Qc3 Rea8 24. Ra2 Bxg2 25. Rf4 g5 =
26.
> >>> Rff2 Bh3 27. Rad2 Bg4 28. Rf1 R5a6 29. Bb2 Bc5 30. a4 Rxa4 31. Rff2 R=
d8 32.
> >>> Rf1 Rb4 33. Ba1 Rb3 34. Qxb3 cxb3 35. Rff2 b2 36. Bxb2 Qe6 37. Rf1 Qb=
3+ 38.
> >>> Kf2 e3+ 39. Kg2 Qd5+
> >>> {White resigns} 0-1
>
> >> Glaurung was very good at Tactics in this game. Initially it gave its
> >> knight for a pawn. Then recovered that knight with a pawn extra.
>
> > Glaurung found the knight move after a 6 ply search which took 13
> > milliseconds. From the log file:
>
> > =A0 =A0depth 6 score cp 172 time 13 nodes 20298 nps 1561384 pv g4f2 e1f=
2 d8f6 f2e1 c5d4 d1f3 e8g8 f3f6 d4f6
>
> > It wasn't really a sacrifice. It was a tactical combination that
> > GetClub didn't see even though it was thinking for 392 seconds on the
> > previous move. Yet glaurung was able to see it after 13 milliseconds.
>
> The situation isn't as simple as I initially thought. For example,
> crafty 22.1 needs a 17 ply search and 1m25s to find Nxf2:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A017 =A0 =A0 1:25 =A0-0.50 =A0 6. ... Nxf2 7=
. Kxf2 Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 9=
. Nb5 O-O 10. a3 d6 11. b4 Bb6 12.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 B=
b2 Re8 13. Kd3 a6 14. Nxc6 Qxb2 15.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R=
b1
>
> So I guess glaurung had great help from its evaluation function, which
> probably says that it's really bad to have the king trapped in the
> middle of the board, especially when the king is needed to protect a
> pinned knight at d4.
>
> How quickly do other engines find Nxf2?
>
> --
> Peter Osterlund - [email protected]://web.telia.com/~u89404340- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There were sequence of forced moves after 4.... Ng4 So GetClub had no
choice but to play the moves and allow the Gambit. There was no way to
escape the gambit else it would have lost its Pawn.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Nov 2008 21:13:31
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
> > Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug =A02 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
> > will win this game.
>
> You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
> game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at least
> 12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
> move.
What was the configuration of the System that played Glaurung? Were
the two playing on same computer?
Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
Was Glaurung thinking in opponents time?
>
> [Date "2008.11.15"]
> [White "GetClub master level"]
> [Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
> [Result "0-1"]
>
> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. Nf3 Ng4 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 Nxf2 7. Kxf2
> Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6 9. Nb5 O-O 10. Be2 Re8 11. a3 Qe5 12. Bf3 a5 13. Ra2 f5 1=
4.
> g3 fxe4 15. Bg2 d5 16. Rf1 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Bg4 18. Qd2 Bf3 19. b3 dxc4 20.
> Rc2 b5 21. b4 Bb6 22. bxa5 Rxa5 23. Qc3 Rea8 24. Ra2 Bxg2 25. Rf4 g5 26.
> Rff2 Bh3 27. Rad2 Bg4 28. Rf1 R5a6 29. Bb2 Bc5 30. a4 Rxa4 31. Rff2 Rd8 3=
2.
> Rf1 Rb4 33. Ba1 Rb3 34. Qxb3 cxb3 35. Rff2 b2 36. Bxb2 Qe6 37. Rf1 Qb3+ 3=
8.
> Kf2 e3+ 39. Kg2 Qd5+
> {White resigns} 0-1
Glaurung was very good at Tactics in this game. Initially it gave its
knight for a pawn. Then recovered that knight with a pawn extra.
Good Game.
Game Played between peter and master at GetClub.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
peter: (Black)
master: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM30550&game=
=3DChess
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
White -- Black
(master) -- (peter)
1. c2-c4{0} e7-e5{10}
2. Nb1-c3{0} Ng8-f6{20}
3. e2-e4{1096} Bf8-c5{210}
4. Ng1-f3{328} Nf6-g4{14}
5. d2-d4{692} e5-d4{12}
6. Nf3-d4{392} Ng4-f2{16}
7. Ke1-f2{346} Qd8-f6{72}
8. Kf2-e3{358} Nb8-c6{14}
9. Nc3-b5{536} Ke8-g8{14}
10. Bf1-e2{436} Rf8-e8{14}
11. a2-a3{336} Qf6-e5{14}
12. Be2-f3{490} a7-a5{28}
13. Ra1-a2{1440} f7-f5{6064}
14. g2-g3{0} f5-e4{18}
15. Bf3-g2{832} d7-d5{1012}
16. Rh1-f1{0} Nc6-d4{14}
17. Nb5-d4{456} Bc8-g4{62}
18. Qd1-d2{402} Bg4-f3{84}
19. b2-b3{412} d5-c4{16}
20. Ra2-c2{598} b7-b5{20}
21. b3-b4{492} Bc5-b6{78}
22. b4-a5{1010} Ra8-a5{20}
23. Qd2-c3{334} Re8-a8{18}
24. Rc2-a2{456} Bf3-g2{252}
25. Rf1-f4{598} g7-g5{16}
26. Rf4-f2{560} Bg2-h3{18}
27. Ra2-d2{662} Bh3-g4{18}
28. Rf2-f1{396} Ra5-a6{18}
29. Bc1-b2{406} Bb6-c5{18}
30. a3-a4{844} Ra6-a4{26}
31. Rf1-f2{930} Ra8-d8{20}
32. Rf2-f1{744} Ra4-b4{16}
33. Bb2-a1{608} Rb4-b3{14}
34. Qc3-b3{654} c4-b3{12}
35. Rf1-f2{1330} b3-b2{24}
36. Ba1-b2{580} Qe5-e6{8}
37. Rf2-f1{1346} Qe6-b3{90}
38. Ke3-f2{138} e4-e3{14}
39. Kf2-g2{380} Qb3-d5{14}
40. Kg2-g1{996}
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
peter: (Black)
master: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM30550&game=
=3DChess
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Nov 2008 10:20:33
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
>> > Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug 2 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
>> > will win this game.
>>
>> You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
>> game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at least
>> 12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
>> move.
>
> What was the configuration of the System that played Glaurung? Were
> the two playing on same computer?
>
> Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
> Was Glaurung thinking in opponents time?
No, that would have ruined the test.
>> [Date "2008.11.15"]
>> [White "GetClub master level"]
>> [Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
>> [Result "0-1"]
>>
>> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. Nf3 Ng4 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 Nxf2 7. Kxf2
>> Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6 9. Nb5 O-O 10. Be2 Re8 11. a3 Qe5 12. Bf3 a5 13. Ra2 f5 14.
>> g3 fxe4 15. Bg2 d5 16. Rf1 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Bg4 18. Qd2 Bf3 19. b3 dxc4 20.
>> Rc2 b5 21. b4 Bb6 22. bxa5 Rxa5 23. Qc3 Rea8 24. Ra2 Bxg2 25. Rf4 g5 26.
>> Rff2 Bh3 27. Rad2 Bg4 28. Rf1 R5a6 29. Bb2 Bc5 30. a4 Rxa4 31. Rff2 Rd8 32.
>> Rf1 Rb4 33. Ba1 Rb3 34. Qxb3 cxb3 35. Rff2 b2 36. Bxb2 Qe6 37. Rf1 Qb3+ 38.
>> Kf2 e3+ 39. Kg2 Qd5+
>> {White resigns} 0-1
>
> Glaurung was very good at Tactics in this game. Initially it gave its
> knight for a pawn. Then recovered that knight with a pawn extra.
Glaurung found the knight move after a 6 ply search which took 13
milliseconds. From the log file:
depth 6 score cp 172 time 13 nodes 20298 nps 1561384 pv g4f2 e1f2 d8f6 f2e1 c5d4 d1f3 e8g8 f3f6 d4f6
It wasn't really a sacrifice. It was a tactical combination that
GetClub didn't see even though it was thinking for 392 seconds on the
previous move. Yet glaurung was able to see it after 13 milliseconds.
The fact that it took many moves until glaurung recovered the material
was because at subsequent moves it realized that it could get even
bigger advantages by delaying the recapture of the material.
Here is data extracted from the glaurung log file. The table shows
move number, search depth, score, thinking time and principal
variation.
4 16 60 4271 : f6g4 d2d4 e5d4 c3a4 c5b4 c1d2 d8e7 f1e2 b4d2 d1d2 b8c6 e1g1
5 16 76 3397 : e5d4 c3a4 c5b4 c1d2 d8e7 f1e2 b8c6 e1g1 g4e5 f3e5 e7e5 d2b4
6 16 188 3611 : g4f2 e1f2 d8f6 f2e1 c5d4 d1f3 d4c3 b2c3 f6e7 f1e2 e8g8 e1d1
7 15 176 2879 : d8f6 d1f3 c5d4 f2e1 d4c3 f3c3 f6h4 c3g3 h4e4 f1e2 e8g8 c1h6
8 15 213 2923 : b8c6 c3d5 f6e5 e3d3 e5d4 d3c2 d4e4 d1d3 e4d5 c4d5 c6b4 c2c3
9 13 252 2858 : e8g8 b2b4 c6b4 a2a3 b4c6 c1b2 d7d6 d1f3 f6g6 f3f4 f8e8 b5c7
10 13 352 3158 : f8e8 a2a3 f6e5 e2f3 a7a5 d1d3 a8a6 c1d2 c6d4 b5d4 a6f6 e3f2
11 12 352 796 : f6e5 e2f3 a7a5 d1d3 a8a6 b2b3 c6d4 b5d4 a6d6 c1b2 e5f6 e3f2
12 13 315 3659 : a7a5 d1d3 f7f5 h1d1 e5h2 e3f2 f5e4 f3e4 h2h4 g2g3 h4e4 d3e4
13 13 449 3409 : f7f5 e3d2 c6d4 b5d4 c5d4 h1e1 d7d6 d2c2 f5e4 c2b1 c8f5 b1a1
14 13 541 1833 : f5e4 f3g2 d7d5 e3f2 c6d4 b5d4 c5d4 f2e1 d5c4 c1f4 e5c5 h1f1
15 13 539 785 : d7d5 e3f2 c6d4 b5d4 c5d4 f2e1 d5c4 h1f1 e5c5 c1g5 c4c3 b2b3
16 14 745 1943 : c6d4 b5d4 c8g4 d1g4 e5d4 e3e2 d4c4 e2e1 c4a2 g4e2 e8f8 e2b5
17 15 758 2091 : c8g4 d1g4 e5d4 e3e2 d4c4 e2d1 c4b3 d1e1 b3a2 g4e2 e8f8 e2b5
18 13 872 2385 : g4f3 f1d1 e5h5 b2b4 a5b4 a3b4 c5b4 a2a8 b4d2 d1d2 h5h6 e3f2
19 12 850 1265 : d5c4 a2c2 f3g2 f1f4 a8d8 c2c4 g2f3 c1b2 c5a7 f4f3 e4f3 e3f2
20 12 925 3115 : b7b5 b3b4 c5b6 f1e1 f3g2 c1b2 g2f3 e3f2 e8d8 f2g1 d8d4 b2d4
21 12 1066 1620 : c5b6 e3f2 e4e3 d2e3 b6d4 g2f3 d4e3 f2g2 e5f5 c2a2 a8a7 f3c6
22 12 988 2677 : a8a5 f1d1 e5g5 e3f2 e4e3 d2e3 e8e3 c1e3 f3d1 e3g5 b6d4 g5e3
23 12 1131 1909 : e8a8 c2a2 f3g2 f1f4 g7g5 f4f2 g2h3 a2c2 a8d8 e3e2 d8d4 e2e1
24 13 1145 1061 : f3g2 f1f4 g7g5 f4f2 g2f3 c1b2 a8d8 a3a4 f3g4 a2a1 b6c5 a4b5
25 14 1135 1641 : g7g5 f4f2 g2f3 c1b2 a8d8 a3a4 f3g4 a2a1 e5d5 f2d2 d5f7 d2f2
26 13 1135 1129 : g2h3 a3a4 a8d8 c1b2 h3g4 a2a1 e5d5 f2d2 d5f7 d2f2 g4f3 c3a5
27 12 1100 1045 : h3g4 c1b2 a8d8 f2e2 e5f6 e2f2 f6d6 f2f1 d6e5 d2d1 c7c5 d4b5
28 13 1168 1146 : a5a6 c1b2 a8d8 a3a4 a6a4 f1a1 a4a1 b2a1 d8f8 d2f2 f8d8 f2d2
29 13 1194 3924 : b6c5 d2d1 a8d8 d1d2 a6d6 a3a4 c7c6 a4a5 d8d7 a5a6 g4h3 f1d1
30 12 1307 621 : a6a4 d2d1 a8d8 c3d2 a4a2 d2c3 g8h8 c3c2 g4d1 f1d1 e5f6 c2g2
31 13 1513 1380 : a8d8 f2e2 a4a2 e2g2 g8h8 h2h3 g4h3 g2g1 h3g4 e3f2 e4e3 f2g2
32 13 1658 973 : a4b4 b2a1 b4b3 c3b3 c4b3 f1c1 c5b6 c1c6 b6a7 a1b2 g8g7 c6c1
33 13 1668 590 : b4b3 c3b3 c4b3 f1c1 c5a7 c1f1 g8g7 a1b2 h7h5 f1b1 h5h4 b1c1
34 11 1668 223 : c4b3 f1c1 c5a7 c1f1 g8g7 a1b2 h7h5 f1b1 h5h4 b1c1 h4g3 h2g3
35 12 3056 1748 : b3b2 a1b2 e5e6 d2d3 e4d3 e3d2 c5d4 b2d4 d8d4 h2h3 g4h3 d2c3
36 13 mate9 811 : e5e6 f2f1 e6b3 e3f2 e4e3 f2g2 b3d5 g2g1 e3d2 b2c3 g4h3 f1f2
37 10 mate8 70 : e6b3 e3f2 e4e3 f2g1 e3d2 g1g2 b3d5 g2f2 d5f3 f2g1 d2d1q f1d1
38 8 mate7 21 : e4e3 f2g1 e3d2 g1g2 b3d5 f1f3 d2d1q h2h3 g4f3 g2f2 c5d4 b2d4
39 8 mate6 18 : b3d5 g2g1 e3d2 b2c3 g4h3 f1f2 d2d1q c3e1 d1e1 f2f1 e1f1
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Nov 2008 11:20:30
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
Peter Osterlund <[email protected] > writes:
> Sanny <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> > Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug 2 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
>>> > will win this game.
>>>
>>> You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
>>> game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at least
>>> 12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
>>> move.
>>
>> What was the configuration of the System that played Glaurung? Were
>> the two playing on same computer?
>>
>> Was Glaurang wotking on a dual core/ quad core?
>
> Glaurung was running on a 2.4GHz quad core machine and GetClub was
> running on a 2.6GHz dual core machine.
>
>> Was Glaurung thinking in opponents time?
>
> No, that would have ruined the test.
>
>>> [Date "2008.11.15"]
>>> [White "GetClub master level"]
>>> [Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
>>> [Result "0-1"]
>>>
>>> 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. Nf3 Ng4 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 Nxf2 7. Kxf2
>>> Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6 9. Nb5 O-O 10. Be2 Re8 11. a3 Qe5 12. Bf3 a5 13. Ra2 f5 14.
>>> g3 fxe4 15. Bg2 d5 16. Rf1 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Bg4 18. Qd2 Bf3 19. b3 dxc4 20.
>>> Rc2 b5 21. b4 Bb6 22. bxa5 Rxa5 23. Qc3 Rea8 24. Ra2 Bxg2 25. Rf4 g5 26.
>>> Rff2 Bh3 27. Rad2 Bg4 28. Rf1 R5a6 29. Bb2 Bc5 30. a4 Rxa4 31. Rff2 Rd8 32.
>>> Rf1 Rb4 33. Ba1 Rb3 34. Qxb3 cxb3 35. Rff2 b2 36. Bxb2 Qe6 37. Rf1 Qb3+ 38.
>>> Kf2 e3+ 39. Kg2 Qd5+
>>> {White resigns} 0-1
>>
>> Glaurung was very good at Tactics in this game. Initially it gave its
>> knight for a pawn. Then recovered that knight with a pawn extra.
>
> Glaurung found the knight move after a 6 ply search which took 13
> milliseconds. From the log file:
>
> depth 6 score cp 172 time 13 nodes 20298 nps 1561384 pv g4f2 e1f2 d8f6 f2e1 c5d4 d1f3 e8g8 f3f6 d4f6
>
> It wasn't really a sacrifice. It was a tactical combination that
> GetClub didn't see even though it was thinking for 392 seconds on the
> previous move. Yet glaurung was able to see it after 13 milliseconds.
The situation isn't as simple as I initially thought. For example,
crafty 22.1 needs a 17 ply search and 1m25s to find Nxf2:
17 1:25 -0.50 6. ... Nxf2 7. Kxf2 Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6
9. Nb5 O-O 10. a3 d6 11. b4 Bb6 12.
Bb2 Re8 13. Kd3 a6 14. Nxc6 Qxb2 15.
Rb1
So I guess glaurung had great help from its evaluation function, which
probably says that it's really bad to have the king trapped in the
middle of the board, especially when the king is needed to protect a
pinned knight at d4.
How quickly do other engines find Nxf2?
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Nov 2008 22:29:11
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
On Nov 15, 11:17=A0am, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> Hey this is good , Sanny you play Peter and i will move my white pieces
> on Ivan the same as Sanny and see if my black pieces make the same moves
> as Glaurug ...But i know they will make different moves but will ivan be
> able to beat GC on the higher level ? =A0+ I can see where Ivan made a
> mistake because i am sure Glaurung is stronger than Ivan ..
>
> Can you two play the game here ? =A0You know start a new thread .....
>
> Would my idea work ? =A0I have no idea .
Who will take white? Since peter has Computer with internet access he
can finish a game and show us the game.
Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug 2 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
will win this game.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Nov 2008 21:32:31
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
On Nov 15, 6:59=A0pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> Ok now i understand , i thought you and Peter would play here like You
> and i play Ivan and GC here ..One or two moves a day....
> I hope your two play .....
>
Peter Played with Master Level with Glaurang.
Master Level: 600 sec / move.
Glaurang: 2 sec / move.
Still Master Level lost the game.
He gave sacrifice of Knight which was recovered after 40 ply beeyond
the horizon og Master Level.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Nov 2008 17:54:17
From: Peter Osterlund
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
Sanny <[email protected] > writes:
> On Nov 15, 11:17 am, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
>> Hey this is good , Sanny you play Peter and i will move my white pieces
>> on Ivan the same as Sanny and see if my black pieces make the same moves
>> as Glaurug ...But i know they will make different moves but will ivan be
>> able to beat GC on the higher level ? + I can see where Ivan made a
>> mistake because i am sure Glaurung is stronger than Ivan ..
>>
>> Can you two play the game here ? You know start a new thread .....
>>
>> Would my idea work ? I have no idea .
>
> Who will take white? Since peter has Computer with internet access he
> can finish a game and show us the game.
>
> Master : 10 min / move vs Glaurug 2 sec / move. I am sure GetClub
> will win this game.
You were wrong. See game below. GetClub didn't stand a chance. The
game was basically over after 10 moves. I think GetClub needs at least
12 hours thinking time to have a chance against glaurung at 2 sec /
move.
[Date "2008.11.15"]
[White "GetClub master level"]
[Black "Glaurung 2.1, 2 sec / move"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. Nf3 Ng4 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 Nxf2 7. Kxf2
Qf6+ 8. Ke3 Nc6 9. Nb5 O-O 10. Be2 Re8 11. a3 Qe5 12. Bf3 a5 13. Ra2 f5 14.
g3 fxe4 15. Bg2 d5 16. Rf1 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Bg4 18. Qd2 Bf3 19. b3 dxc4 20.
Rc2 b5 21. b4 Bb6 22. bxa5 Rxa5 23. Qc3 Rea8 24. Ra2 Bxg2 25. Rf4 g5 26.
Rff2 Bh3 27. Rad2 Bg4 28. Rf1 R5a6 29. Bb2 Bc5 30. a4 Rxa4 31. Rff2 Rd8 32.
Rf1 Rb4 33. Ba1 Rb3 34. Qxb3 cxb3 35. Rff2 b2 36. Bxb2 Qe6 37. Rf1 Qb3+ 38.
Kf2 e3+ 39. Kg2 Qd5+
{White resigns} 0-1
--
Peter Osterlund - [email protected]
http://web.telia.com/~u89404340
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Nov 2008 05:59:56
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
Ok now i understand , i thought you and Peter would play here like You
and i play Ivan and GC here ..One or two moves a day....
I hope your two play .....
Id play Basicfun myself , ME vs Basicfun , i am not sure i would win
but id try too..
6.0I AM Sat now , why did i wake up so early .
Going back to sleep if i can for awhile , my day off ....I have a lot to
get done today too....by
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Nov 2008 08:56:47
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
I respectfully disagree with you ...
Under my rules it is fair ....
However the pieces come up is how they come up.
You want to play my Ivan and you be white ?
Hey , how is your chess program coming along ? You can test it vs
Ivan ..
In the Ivan vs GC games i have played , i can tell they are about even
in strength + it seems GC has a little stronger middle game but Ivan
has a little stronger end game .......
GC seems to play better as white too ..
I mite play the game out if i can not find some one to play it or if no
one wants to play this game computer vs computer ..
I mite record the game too , i have never recorded a game in my life ..
|
| | |
Date: 10 Nov 2008 00:51:39
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: In a game of random chess is there less opportunity to draw ?
|
How is it unfair , it was all random....
|
|
