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Date: 28 Aug 2008 01:12:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
GetClub was twice improved today still it lost to Jester.

Jester found a Mate in 8 and win the game.

I could not find any wrong move by GetClub but still it lost the game.

Can you spot the wrong moves?


Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM25519&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{8} e7-e6{0}
2. d2-d4{6} d7-d5{0}
3. Nb1-c3{10} Bf8-b4{0}
4. e4-e5{6} c7-c5{0}
5. a2-a3{6} Bb4-c3{10}
6. b2-c3{12} Nb8-c6{42}
7. Bf1-b5{14} c5-c4{44}
8. Qd1-g4{16} g7-g6{24}
9. Bc1-g5{12} Qd8-b6{12}
10. Bb5-c6{12} Qb6-c6{12}
11. Qg4-f3{14} Bc8-d7{10}
12. Bg5-f6{16} Ng8-f6{6}
13. Qf3-f6{12} Ke8-g8{10}
14. Ra1-b1{14} Qc6-a4{30}
15. Ke1-d2{18} b7-b5{10}
16. Rb1-a1{14} Rf8-e8{26}
17. Ng1-f3{14} h7-h6{26}
18. h2-h4{14} Re8-d8{38}
19. h4-h5{14} g6-h5{32}
20. Qf6-h6{14} Qa4-a5{20}
21. Nf3-g5{18} Qa5-c3{2}
22. Kd2-c3{14} b5-b4{0}
23. a3-b4{8} Bd7-a4{2}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM25519&game=Chess

The Score was +ve for GetClub at most of the time but suddenly Jester
advanced its pawn towards the king and get 1 pawn up. And the King got
trapped.

Can you find which move of GetClub is wrong?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 29 Aug 2008 22:31:57
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
> None of this is new, ofcourse, and I don't expect you to listen as you never
> have before. But I thought I'd write it anyway just in-case.
>
> ave

Thankyou for your good advice.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 28 Aug 2008 23:21:16
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
On Aug 29, 12:34=A0am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> > > 1. e2-e4{8} e7-e6{0}
> > > 2. d2-d4{6} d7-d5{0}
> > > 3. Nb1-c3{10} Bf8-b4{0}
> > > 4. e4-e5{6} c7-c5{0}
> > > 5. a2-a3{6} Bb4-c3{10}
> > > 6. b2-c3{12} Nb8-c6{42}
> > > 7. Bf1-b5{14} c5-c4{44}
> > > 8. Qd1-g4{16} g7-g6{24}
>
> > =A0 This move needlessly weakens the dark
> > squares (i.e. f6). =A0Believe it or not, in some
> > positions like this Black is better off playing
> > ...Kf8.
>
> Only 2 correct moves else the f7 pawn will get killed.
>
> 8.... g6 (Weakens f6 square?)
> 8..... Kf8 (stops King Chastling?)
>
> Which is bigger error weak square or stopping the Chastling?


Excellent question.

But first, let's back up to move seven;
...c4 was a horrible move, and this is why
the question of "what to do after Qg4"
comes up.

Now, which is worse: the dark-square
weakening of ...g6, or the inability to castle
after ...Kf8? That's a tough one. It seems
to me that both cases give White a huge
advantage, so it boils down to a question
of who is doing the attacking, and who the
defending?


> How much penalty should be given for a weak square?


Why not try a very small penalty, and if
it needs enlargement, you can make the
adjustment later. OTOH, if you make the
adjustment too big, people will beat Get-
Club like carrots, and you won't even
know why. Tactics always take
precedence.


> > > 9. Bc1-g5{12} Qd8-b6{12}
> > > 10. Bb5-c6{12} Qb6-c6{12}
> > > 11. Qg4-f3{14} Bc8-d7{10}
> > > 12. Bg5-f6{16} Ng8-f6{6}
> > > 13. Qf3-f6{12} Ke8-g8{10}
>
> > =A0 Without sight of the board I can tell you
> > that this is suicidal; there are no defenders
> > of the King-side dark squares, thus it is
> > just about time to call for the coroner and
> > pick out a casket.
>
> If it Chastle to other side the Pawn f7 would be killed.


Castling to the other side is illegal,
because you can't legally move the King
"through check" (across any attacked
square).

An alternative to castling King-side would
be the legal move ...Rg8.


> And if it saves f7 with Rook then Queen will go to g7 attacking the a7
> pawn.
>
> So it Chastled on king side.


This is okay, so long as Black immediately
exchanges Queens via ...Qc7-d8, but White
need not cooperate. As we saw, Black was
quite unaware of the looming danger to his
King.


> > > 14. Ra1-b1{14} Qc6-a4{30}
>
> > =A0 Excellent positional move! =A0White's Queen-
> > side is boxed up, and were it not for the
> > minor detail of getting checkmated, Black
> > would perhaps be in swell shape.
>
> So thats a good move.


No. Black is getting mauled here. The
pawns on the other wing are largely
irrelevant-- a mere distraction from the
real issue. However, the maneuver
...Q-a4xa3-e7 could work out okay, if
White attacks very s-l-o-w-l-y, having no
clue what he's doing.

Have a look at 16. ...b4!, where Black
at least attempts to fight back.


-- help bot



 
Date: 28 Aug 2008 22:03:14
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
> =A0 Sanny, I would suggest you simply remove
> this opening fromGetClub'sarsenal. =A0The
> program should attempt to avoid closed
> positions, and instead focus on playing the
> more open ones.

Instead of removing this opening I have added 6...Ne7 as you
suggested.

> =A0 But for the record, the move 6. ...Ne7
> would have avoided the ...g6/...Kf8 dilemma
> which occurs after White plays Qg4. =A0Black
> can then sacrifice the g7-pawn and the h7-
> pawn as well (after ...Rg8, chasing White's
> Queen). =A0White, of course, is not obligated
> to play Qg4 in this case.

After 6...Ne7 Black can Chastle 0-0 when Queen comes to g4.

Great Analysis. Now it would be very difficult to win Beginner Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



  
Date: 29 Aug 2008 14:15:06
From: ave
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
> Great Analysis. Now it would be very difficult to win Beginner Level.

A single change such as this cannot immediately make the game "very
difficult" to beat. If it is not already very difficult to beat then this
single change is hardly going to make it tougher.

I would suggest that you accept the fact that 'GetClub' is not actually very
good at chess and actually stop saying that is now difficult to beat.
Everyday, GetClub is improved 'twice better' and very difficult to beat and
yet everyone still beats it (okay, maybe not everyone, but those that beat
it before still beat it) so claiming it's now much better and difficult to
beat is just annoying because it isn't true.

I can see improvements are being made and that the game it plays is much
better than it used to be, but it's still not a great chess engine. If you
removed the inaccurate claims and actually sounded like you didn't think the
game was the greatest ever made you'd probably find more people willing to
provide input and help.

None of this is new, ofcourse, and I don't expect you to listen as you never
have before. But I thought I'd write it anyway just in-case.

ave




 
Date: 28 Aug 2008 21:34:50
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
> > 1. e2-e4{8} e7-e6{0}
> > 2. d2-d4{6} d7-d5{0}
> > 3. Nb1-c3{10} Bf8-b4{0}
> > 4. e4-e5{6} c7-c5{0}
> > 5. a2-a3{6} Bb4-c3{10}
> > 6. b2-c3{12} Nb8-c6{42}
> > 7. Bf1-b5{14} c5-c4{44}
> > 8. Qd1-g4{16} g7-g6{24}
>
> =A0 This move needlessly weakens the dark
> squares (i.e. f6). =A0Believe it or not, in some
> positions like this Black is better off playing
> ...Kf8.

Only 2 correct moves else the f7 pawn will get killed.

8.... g6 (Weakens f6 square?)
8..... Kf8 (stops King Chastling?)

Which is bigger error weak square or stopping the Chastling?

How much penalty should be given for a weak square?

> > 9. Bc1-g5{12} Qd8-b6{12}
> > 10. Bb5-c6{12} Qb6-c6{12}
> > 11. Qg4-f3{14} Bc8-d7{10}
> > 12. Bg5-f6{16} Ng8-f6{6}
> > 13. Qf3-f6{12} Ke8-g8{10}
>
> =A0 Without sight of the board I can tell you
> that this is suicidal; there are no defenders
> of the King-side dark squares, thus it is
> just about time to call for the coroner and
> pick out a casket.

If it Chastle to other side the Pawn f7 would be killed.

And if it saves f7 with Rook then Queen will go to g7 attacking the a7
pawn.

So it Chastled on king side.

> > 14. Ra1-b1{14} Qc6-a4{30}
>
> =A0 Excellent positional move! =A0White's Queen-
> side is boxed up, and were it not for the
> minor detail of getting checkmated, Black
> would perhaps be in swell shape.

So thats a good move.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 28 Aug 2008 21:22:38
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
> > Can you spot the wrong moves?
>
> =A0 Okay, bear with me--- I am going to try to
> spot errors without looking at a chessboard!

Here is the animated Board for your analysis.

http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM25519&game=3DChess

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 28 Aug 2008 19:12:43
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze game between Beginner & Jester
On Aug 28, 4:12=A0am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> GetClub was twice improved today still it lost to Jester.


You clearly need to increase the rate of
"improvement" by a factor of x-squared minus
y-to-the-nth power, square-rooted, over z-
cubed plus the speed of light in a Hoover
vacuum times the TK-factor.


> Jester found a Mate in 8 and win the game.
>
> I could not find any wrong move by GetClub but still it lost the game.
>
> Can you spot the wrong moves?


Okay, bear with me--- I am going to try to
spot errors without looking at a chessboard!


> White -- Black
> (Jester) -- (beginner)
>
> 1. e2-e4{8} e7-e6{0}
> 2. d2-d4{6} d7-d5{0}
> 3. Nb1-c3{10} Bf8-b4{0}
> 4. e4-e5{6} c7-c5{0}
> 5. a2-a3{6} Bb4-c3{10}
> 6. b2-c3{12} Nb8-c6{42}
> 7. Bf1-b5{14} c5-c4{44}
> 8. Qd1-g4{16} g7-g6{24}


This move needlessly weakens the dark
squares (i.e. f6). Believe it or not, in some
positions like this Black is better off playing
...Kf8.


> 9. Bc1-g5{12} Qd8-b6{12}
> 10. Bb5-c6{12} Qb6-c6{12}
> 11. Qg4-f3{14} Bc8-d7{10}
> 12. Bg5-f6{16} Ng8-f6{6}
> 13. Qf3-f6{12} Ke8-g8{10}


Without sight of the board I can tell you
that this is suicidal; there are no defenders
of the King-side dark squares, thus it is
just about time to call for the coroner and
pick out a casket.


> 14. Ra1-b1{14} Qc6-a4{30}


Excellent positional move! White's Queen-
side is boxed up, and were it not for the
minor detail of getting checkmated, Black
would perhaps be in swell shape.


> 15. Ke1-d2{18} b7-b5{10}
> 16. Rb1-a1{14} Rf8-e8{26}
> 17. Ng1-f3{14} h7-h6{26}
> 18. h2-h4{14}


Hmm. Blindfolded, I cannot calculate, but
I "smell" a mate-in-ten.


> ... Re8-d8{38}
> 19. h4-h5{14} g6-h5{32}
> 20. Qf6-h6{14} Qa4-a5{20}
> 21. Nf3-g5{18} Qa5-c3{2}


Excellent counter! Always keep 'em on
the defensive.


> 22. Kd2-c3{14} b5-b4{0}
> 23. a3-b4{8} Bd7-a4{2}


Sanny, I would suggest you simply remove
this opening from GetClub's arsenal. The
program should attempt to avoid closed
positions, and instead focus on playing the
more open ones.

But for the record, the move 6. ...Ne7
would have avoided the ...g6/...Kf8 dilemma
which occurs after White plays Qg4. Black
can then sacrifice the g7-pawn and the h7-
pawn as well (after ...Rg8, chasing White's
Queen). White, of course, is not obligated
to play Qg4 in this case.

Another idea would be to completely
ignore the misplaced Bishop on b5, and
complete development. For instance:

7. ... Ne7

8. Qg4 O-O

9. Bh6 Ng6

Again, White is in no way obligated to
play Qg4 in this line.


-- help bot