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Main
Date: 29 Sep 2006 11:27:46
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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Some time back I bought some chess software called Pocket Fritz 2
developed a company called Chessbase in Germany.
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=152
I purchased it in England. This runs on a handhold personal digital
assistant (PDA). As you might guess, the software can play you a game of
chess. But it should be able to do more than just this. The web page
describing the product also says:
"The program gives you mobile access to the ChessBase Online database
with well over two million games. There you can search for the games of
specific players, tournaments or openings." (Openings are the first
10-15 moves of a game of chess)
This feature requires you have an Internet connection to the PDA and so
the PDA then connects to Chessbase's database.
This feature was as far as I was concerned one of the main features of
the program. There are lots of chess programs which can play chess, but
Pocket Fritz 2 was the only one to have this feature.
I assume Chessbase, the developers of the software, have made changes to
their database or web server, since at least part of the functionality
has been reduced. It is no longer possible to search for specific
opening. It used to work, but now does not. The software on the PDA has
not changed - Chessbase have introduced some bug into their online
database.
Chessbase admit the fault exists, and have known about it for several
months, but have told me in an email that fixing it is not a high priority.
Unfortunately, I bought the software 2 to 3 years ago, but if it had
been purchased recently (how recently?), would this be a good enough
reason to get a refund of the purchase price? Or could the retailer
and/or Chessbase argue that all non-trivial software has bugs, and so
refuse to do so?
I believe there are some extra rights one has if paying by a credit
card. Would these help?
I'm almost tempted to buy a second copy just for the hell of it. If
nothing else, it will irritate the retailer to have to give a refund
under such circumstances. They might then put pressure on the developers
to fix the online database they have screwed up.
--
Dave (from the UK)
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 10:55:09
From:
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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if "bugs" were a legitimate reason for claiming a refund on dodgy
software, Microsoft would have gone bust years ago
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 05:39:57
From: Jethro
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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Cynic wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:27:46 +0100, "Dave (from the UK)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Chessbase admit the fault exists, and have known about it for several
> >months, but have told me in an email that fixing it is not a high priority.
>
> With bug fixes by small companies, the rule is that two types of bugs
> get priority. The first is a bug fix that a big sale depends upon.
> The second is the "squeaky wheel" principle that the person who
> complains the most often and persistently gets the bug fixed to shut
> them up.
>
> There is unfortunately another common situation with software that is
> a couple of years old - the person who wrote it has left the company
> and there is nobody else in the company who has a clue how to fix the
> bug.
>
> You could call a UK agent of the company. Explain that your technical
> department is evaluating the software to bundle with a minor Christmas
> promo of a popular PDA targetted at stocking-fillers for high income
> professionals. Ask for quotes for price breaks for 100K, 250K and
> 500K copies of the program. Then call back a couple of days later and
> haggle with the prices quoted, saying that it is all looking promising
> provided you can finalise in time. Almost as an aside, mention that
> your testing department has identified a minor bug with their
> database, and request a timescale to fix it. Tell them you will have
> to put the testing on hold until they advise you that they are ready,
> and say that it is getting really tight for the Christmas deadline.
>
> Of course, you have to have a lot of cheek and sound *really*
> convincing to carry it off.
LOL !
some colleagues and I pulled this trick on our *own* company once, to
bypass the ludicrously tiresome layers of paperwork that meant the
slightest bugfix took months.
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 08:35:33
From: Ange1o DePa1ma
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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"Dave (from the UK)" <[email protected] >
wrote
> Some time back I bought some chess software called Pocket Fritz 2
> developed a company called Chessbase in Germany.
(snip)
> Unfortunately, I bought the software 2 to 3 years ago, but if it had been
> purchased recently (how recently?), would this be a good enough reason to
> get a refund of the purchase price? Or could the retailer and/or Chessbase
> argue that all non-trivial software has bugs, and so refuse to do so?
I sent an email to ChessBase customer service last week about this problem.
This is the response I received:
"Deah Schweinhundt:
Vee haff receift your complainink letter, danke schoen. Yoo are krazy,
verrueckt, to tink dat you miserable Schweinhundt desserf a refunt! Silly
patzer. ChessBase GmbH duss not giff refunts to amerikaner Schweinhundts
such as yourself. Iff you keep complainink about our products vee vill be
forced to deal mit you in a ferry extreme mannah. Remember how vee took back
den Sudetenland vor der greater glory of des Reichs? Vee can deal mit vermin
like yoo too. Iff yoo don't like our Produkt, bitte go buy somevun else's,
like dose Kommunist Convekta peoples'.
Very best wishes,
Dieter Schwacherschwanz,
Vice-Chancellor, Customer Service"
There you haff it. I mean Have IT.
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 13:05:07
From: Cynic
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:27:46 +0100, "Dave (from the UK)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>Chessbase admit the fault exists, and have known about it for several
>months, but have told me in an email that fixing it is not a high priority.
With bug fixes by small companies, the rule is that two types of bugs
get priority. The first is a bug fix that a big sale depends upon.
The second is the "squeaky wheel" principle that the person who
complains the most often and persistently gets the bug fixed to shut
them up.
There is unfortunately another common situation with software that is
a couple of years old - the person who wrote it has left the company
and there is nobody else in the company who has a clue how to fix the
bug.
You could call a UK agent of the company. Explain that your technical
department is evaluating the software to bundle with a minor Christmas
promo of a popular PDA targetted at stocking-fillers for high income
professionals. Ask for quotes for price breaks for 100K, 250K and
500K copies of the program. Then call back a couple of days later and
haggle with the prices quoted, saying that it is all looking promising
provided you can finalise in time. Almost as an aside, mention that
your testing department has identified a minor bug with their
database, and request a timescale to fix it. Tell them you will have
to put the testing on hold until they advise you that they are ready,
and say that it is getting really tight for the Christmas deadline.
Of course, you have to have a lot of cheek and sound *really*
convincing to carry it off.
--
Cynic
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 14:27:29
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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Cynic <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Dave (from the UK)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Chessbase admit the fault exists, and have known about it for
>> several months, but have told me in an email that fixing it is not
>> a high priority.
>
> With bug fixes by small companies [...]
>
> There is unfortunately another common situation with software that is
> a couple of years old - the person who wrote it has left the company
> and there is nobody else in the company who has a clue how to fix the
> bug.
This isn't really relevant here. What has happened is that ChessBase
have recently changed their server so it is no longer compatible with
the software Dave bought.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Homicidal Ghost (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a haunting spirit but it wants to
kill you!
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 11:24:34
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Unfortunately, I bought the software 2 to 3 years ago, but if it had
> been purchased recently (how recently?), would this be a good enough
> reason to get a refund of the purchase price?
Within a month, I think. Or at least sufficient time that you would have
been able to test the feature. This requires knowledge I don't have --
I expect UK consumer laws and policies enter into it.
> Or could the retailer
> and/or Chessbase argue that all non-trivial software has bugs, and so
> refuse to do so?
It's a question if this is a trivial or non-trivial bug. Since the
functionality was described on an (official?) web page, I think you
have ground enough for believing that the functionality is in fact
present without any errors. If it is stated in the manual, you have
a good case.
The thing, though, is that you need find the error reasonably soon
after purchase.
I'm not sure if there is an implicit promise that such functionality
will continue
>
> I believe there are some extra rights one has if paying by a credit
> card. Would these help?
>
> I'm almost tempted to buy a second copy just for the hell of it. If
> nothing else, it will irritate the retailer to have to give a refund
> under such circumstances. They might then put pressure on the developers
> to fix the online database they have screwed up.
>
--
Anders Thulin ath*algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~ath
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 13:51:20
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
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Anders Thulin wrote:
> I'm not sure if there is an implicit promise that such functionality
> will continue
... to be supported for the indefinite future. But later product advertisements
should settle that.
--
Anders Thulin ath*algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~ath
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Date: 29 Sep 2006 12:08:14
From: =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=
Subject: Re: Software bug - valid reason for a refund??
|
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Some time back I bought some chess software called Pocket Fritz 2
> developed a company called Chessbase in Germany.
>
> http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=152
>
> I purchased it in England. This runs on a handhold personal digital
> assistant (PDA). As you might guess, the software can play you a game of
> chess. But it should be able to do more than just this. The web page
> describing the product also says:
>
> "The program gives you mobile access to the ChessBase Online database
> with well over two million games. There you can search for the games of
> specific players, tournaments or openings." (Openings are the first
> 10-15 moves of a game of chess)
>
> This feature requires you have an Internet connection to the PDA and so
> the PDA then connects to Chessbase's database.
>
> This feature was as far as I was concerned one of the main features of
> the program. There are lots of chess programs which can play chess, but
> Pocket Fritz 2 was the only one to have this feature.
>
> I assume Chessbase, the developers of the software, have made changes to
> their database or web server, since at least part of the functionality
> has been reduced. It is no longer possible to search for specific
> opening. It used to work, but now does not. The software on the PDA has
> not changed - Chessbase have introduced some bug into their online
> database.
>
> Chessbase admit the fault exists, and have known about it for several
> months, but have told me in an email that fixing it is not a high priority.
>
> Unfortunately, I bought the software 2 to 3 years ago, but if it had
> been purchased recently (how recently?), would this be a good enough
> reason to get a refund of the purchase price? Or could the retailer
> and/or Chessbase argue that all non-trivial software has bugs, and so
> refuse to do so?
>
> I believe there are some extra rights one has if paying by a credit
> card. Would these help?
>
> I'm almost tempted to buy a second copy just for the hell of it. If
> nothing else, it will irritate the retailer to have to give a refund
> under such circumstances. They might then put pressure on the developers
> to fix the online database they have screwed up.
>
IANAL
IIUC
Ordinarily, you get little protection against bugs when you buy a
*licence* to use software.
However, if you specifically stated that such and such a feature was
essential and the retailer confirmed (ideally in writing) that it did
have that feature - then if it proved not to have it, then the goods are
not fit for the purpose for which they have been supplied and the
retailer has not fulfilled the contract.
--
Sue
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