Main
Date: 03 Oct 2006 15:54:21
From: jraggio
Subject: Suggestion for good free windows app
I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
found it to be lacking as well.

I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
alas there is no Windows version.

Thanks for any advice you all may have,
John





 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 13:19:57
From:
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> > SCID was confusing and I did not want to invest the time playing around
> > with it. I'm sure it's very good for DB and searching etc., but I
> > don't have a need for that right now.
>
> Just be aware you might wabt the functionality in the future. But then
> you have invested time in propriety products. As someone posted here the
> other day:

I agree. How long will we be playing chess? A little time invested
learning how to use the best tools should save in the long-term.

By the way, thanks for the SCID tips. I will try those out!

---
likesforests
Become a Chess Expert - http://likesforests.blogspot.com/



 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 13:11:21
From:
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
jraggio wrote:
> Chesspad looked promissing at first. It was very small and simple, but
> I could not figure out how to do the following (which I really wanted):
>
> 1: Show all the move history. It seems to show only the last move in
> the move "list"

Correct, it only displays the next move. If you want to see the last
move, you can use the back and forward arrows. You can use Game - > Copy
As - > PGN to cut + paste the complete move-list into other programs.

> 2: Show the score when using Crafty for analysis. The analysis window
> shows the recomended line, but no score. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
> Here is what I see:
>
> 11/-8
> 15. a5 Rac8 16. e5 Nfd5 17. Nxd5 exd5 18. Nf5 Bxf5 19. Bxf5 Nxc2 20.
> Bxc8 Nxa1

Hmm... -8 is the score! A - means Black is winning, a + means White is
winning. In Crafty's scoring system a pawn is worth 100, piece 300,
rook 500, etc.

> 3: Ability to easily enter variations and traverse them.

You can do this in Chesspad... for example, move 1.e4, hit the back
button, then move 1.d4. Now both options are shown in the move window.

When I need to do something more complex like viewing multiple
variations at once, I use Arena. It has richer options -- add as
mainline, add as variation, delete line, etc. It also has variation
boards, shows the top few chess engine lines, etc.

Chesspad is my fast and simpe program. I can leave it open all day
without it slowing my computer, and rapidly input over-the-board or
book positions.

I'm glad you found something that works for you.

---
likesforests
Become a Chess Expert - http://likesforests.blogspot.com/



 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 09:14:35
From: cmcanulty
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
Here is a link to a free Fritz download version 5.32
http://copoechecs.free.fr/soft/



 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 08:04:56
From: jraggio
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app

[email protected] wrote:
> I use several PGN viewers: Chesspad, Arena, and SCID.
>
> Your requirements are:
>
> + View, Edit, Analyze PGN
> + Very easy to use
>
> Chesspad is easy-to-use, loads quickly, and stable. It comes with
> Crafty (elo:2647) for analysis, but supports any Winboard engine.
> http://www.wmlsoftware.com/chesspad.html
>
> Arena is somewhat harder to use, but supports strong UCI-compatible
> engines such as Rybka (elo:3000+), shows variation boards, etc.
> http://www.playwitharena.com/
>
> SCID is somewhat harder to use, but is excellent for endgame and
> opening statistics. How many R+P engings did you lose? Where well do
> you play the French, and what was the first novelty in your game?
> http://scid.sourceforge.net/
>
> All three have a place in my studies.
>
> ---
> Become a Chess Expert
> http://likesforests.blogspot.com/
>
> jraggio wrote:
> > I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
> > a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
> > Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
> > enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
> > simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
> > confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
> > found it to be lacking as well.
> >
> > I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
> > work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
> > lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
> > the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
> > alas there is no Windows version.
> >
> > Thanks for any advice you all may have,
> > John

Thanks for the reply. I gave them all a look and have decided to break
down and install Fritz. I know it already and am comfortable with the
UI and features.

SCID was confusing and I did not want to invest the time playing around
with it. I'm sure it's very good for DB and searching etc., but I
don't have a need for that right now.

The same goes for Arena. I found the UI to be daunting.

Chesspad looked promissing at first. It was very small and simple, but
I could not figure out how to do the following (which I really wanted):

1: Show all the move history. It seems to show only the last move in
the move "list"
2: Show the score when using Crafty for analysis. The analysis window
shows the recomended line, but no score. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Here is what I see:

11/-8
15. a5 Rac8 16. e5 Nfd5 17. Nxd5 exd5 18. Nf5 Bxf5 19. Bxf5 Nxc2 20.
Bxc8 Nxa1

3: Ability to easily enter variations and traverse them.

Thanks,
John



  
Date: 04 Oct 2006 18:37:11
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
jraggio wrote:

> Thanks for the reply. I gave them all a look and have decided to break
> down and install Fritz. I know it already and am comfortable with the
> UI and features.
>
> SCID was confusing and I did not want to invest the time playing around
> with it. I'm sure it's very good for DB and searching etc., but I
> don't have a need for that right now.

Just be aware you might wabt the functionality in the future. But then
you have invested time in propriety products. As someone posted here the
other day:

From the thread "Chessbase think they are better than us????"
******
> I can speak for myself only on this point. The reason
> I keep going back to ChessBase despite very
> serious problems with the company and their software
> is that I already have a big investment in their
> stuff. I'm very familiar with the look and feel of
> their products. But if I had begun with Convekta
> or even the free database, Scid, I would
> probably be laughing at all the CB
> addicts in the world.
*****

At least if you persevere with scid, you can be sure it will remain free
and you can be sure it will run on the next version of windows, or
whatever else you use. There is no guarantee you will be able to Fritz
on whatever Microsoft produce next. Perhaps you might have to pay more
money for a new version.

Whereas because the source code for scid is open, there is a very high
probability someone will just recompile it for the next version of Windows.

As I suspected, scid will run on a Mac too:

http://blog.paulgorman.org/?p=79

> The same goes for Arena. I found the UI to be daunting.

Not tried it, but again closed source, and no guarantee it will work on
systems in the future.

> Chesspad looked promissing at first. It was very small and simple, but
> I could not figure out how to do the following (which I really wanted):

> 1: Show all the move history. It seems to show only the last move in
> the move "list"

Scid can open the PGN file and see all the moves. The last and next are
shown all the time.

> 2: Show the score when using Crafty for analysis. The analysis window
> shows the recomended line, but no score. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
> Here is what I see:
>
> 11/-8
> 15. a5 Rac8 16. e5 Nfd5 17. Nxd5 exd5 18. Nf5 Bxf5 19. Bxf5 Nxc2 20.
> Bxc8 Nxa1

scid will show you the score, in addition to all the stuff above.

> 3: Ability to easily enter variations and traverse them.

Again, easy to do. Open a game, forward to the point of interest, then
drag whatever piece you want to add a variation. scid will ask you if
you want to replace the move in the game, add a variation, or try a
variation. There's a couple of confusing looking buttons in the toolbar
that leave the current variation.



> Thanks,
> John
>


--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)


   
Date: 20 Oct 2006 13:02:55
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
Dave (from the UK) <[email protected] > wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
>> The reason I keep going back to ChessBase despite very serious
>> problems with the company and their software is that I already have
>> a big investment in their stuff. I'm very familiar with the look
>> and feel of their products.
>
> At least if you persevere with scid, you can be sure it will remain
> free

No you can't. You can be sure that the current version will remain
free but there's nothing to stop the author only releasing future
versions as a closed-source project. Indeed, this has already
happened with some chess software, such as Fruit.


> and you can be sure it will run on the next version of windows, or
> whatever else you use.

This much is true. (Well, you can't be *absolutely* sure but it's a
bet that I'd certainly take, if the bookies could be bothered giving
odds on something that likely!)


Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Lead Composer (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a pupil of Beethoven that weighs
a ton but you can never put it down!


    
Date: 20 Oct 2006 20:54:14
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
David Richerby wrote:
> Dave (from the UK) <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Somebody wrote:
>>
>>>The reason I keep going back to ChessBase despite very serious
>>>problems with the company and their software is that I already have
>>>a big investment in their stuff. I'm very familiar with the look
>>>and feel of their products.
>>
>>At least if you persevere with scid, you can be sure it will remain
>>free
>
>
> No you can't. You can be sure that the current version will remain
> free but there's nothing to stop the author only releasing future
> versions as a closed-source project.


True. The point I was trying to make, although I'd admit not too
clearly, is that you can be pretty sure you will not need to buy
something to have the functionality of the present version. If windows
changes, it should be possible

> Indeed, this has already
> happened with some chess software, such as Fruit.

Yes, I know that happens.

>>and you can be sure it will run on the next version of windows, or
>>whatever else you use.
>
>
> This much is true. (Well, you can't be *absolutely* sure but it's a
> bet that I'd certainly take, if the bookies could be bothered giving
> odds on something that likely!)

True you can't be 100% sure, but you can be far more confident that you
could with a current version of chessbase, bookup or whatever else you use.

At the end of the day, 'scid' is free and very usable. There are things
I'd like to see in it, but if I was sufficiently motivated I could add
them myself.

Also, if someone brings out another open-source chess database, they (or
someone else) is likely to write so code to read scid format files.
That's more difficult to do with chessbase format files, as the file
format is not published.

--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)


 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 17:43:19
From:
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
I got SCID a week ago. I'm curious what features you find the most
useful, so I know what to look at first. I've been using the following:

1. Search for material - lookup endgames, how well I do in each.
2. I downloaded an 85,000-game 1.c4 PGN so I can lookup lines in them.
3. I use "tree view" to see which lines I do better/worse in.

---
likesforests
Become a Chess Expert - http://likesforests.blogspot.com/

Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> jraggio wrote:
> > I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
> > a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
> > Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
> > enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
> > simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
> > confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
> > found it to be lacking as well.
> >
> > I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
> > work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
> > lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
> > the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
> > alas there is no Windows version.
> >
> > Thanks for any advice you all may have,
> > John
> >
>
> For viewing, editing, analysing, sorting, etc etc, 'scid' is very good.
>
> http://scid.sourceforge.net/
>
> There are a few screen shots at:
>
> http://scid.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
>
> scid is free, runs on Windows, UNIX & Linux. Depeding on your Mac, it
> might run on that too, as I'd be pretty sure it would run under OSX,
> which is a UNIX operating system on the newer Macs
>
> You can't use scid to play games in though. Shame really, as I'm sure it
> could be added and would extend its functionality even more.
>
> Everyone who uses scid first finds the intereface a bit confusing - I
> did too. This is a common complaint. BUT, once you have got used to the
> interface, the program is very good. So persevere, and don't be put off
> too much by the interface. It actually works well. There is a scid
> mailing list and several on here use the program too.
>
> --
> Dave (from the UK)
>
> Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
> It is always of the form: [email protected]
> Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
>
> http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)



  
Date: 04 Oct 2006 07:13:50
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
[email protected] wrote:
> I got SCID a week ago. I'm curious what features you find the most
> useful, so I know what to look at first. I've been using the following:
>
> 1. Search for material - lookup endgames, how well I do in each.
> 2. I downloaded an 85,000-game 1.c4 PGN so I can lookup lines in them.
> 3. I use "tree view" to see which lines I do better/worse in.


OK, here's a few ideas. First note that I use it on UNIX (Solaris to be
more precise). I'm not sure if there might be slight differences on the
Windows version, as I never use that myself.


Secondly a CORRECTION. I earlier said you can not play chess in SCID -
you can!!! To do so.

a) Start a new game (Game - > New Game)

b) Make a move if you want to play white.

c) Tools - > Analysis, then select Training. Then set a time for the
engine to think (it defaults to 4s), and then play chess.

Other Useful things.

2) Open a database of GM games and use the Tree Windows on that. Select
'Lock' Then switch database containing your own games. The tree window
now shows the frequency of moves played in the GM games, not your own
games, since you previously locked it.

3) Window - > Comment editor to add comments to a game.

4) The "ks" are quite useful there. For instance I have games where I
put a number on a square to indicate the most common location for
playing a piece. You can use color to indicate what you want. For
instance, you can use Red to indicate bishops, White Knights etc. The
place a white number 1 on c3, to indicate the most played move is a
knight to c3. I find that quite useful.

5) Add/delete PGN tags, using the save menu.

6) Download some table bases. Then you can see how many moves to
win/lose/draw etc, and it indicates if there are multiple moves that
achieve the same thing. It will say something like

"White Wins in 12 with Be4, all other moves draw" or something similar.

7) To find a GM game which has the exact same positions as on one of
your own games, first copy the game (Control, Shift and C). Open the GM
database, add a new game, and paste it in (Control, Shift and V). Then
Search - > Current Board and it will search for all games with that
position. Then load - > Load First Game and so on to see all the games.


8) Useful if you are going to play a specific person is to get their
game in a database and look with the ECO window at the moves they play
and the wins. The graphs show easily if a certain person has a higher
percentage of win in say a 1.d4 opening than in a French. I would tend
to store the places where they are white in one database and the places
they are black in another

Of course, you can do this about yourself and see where your best
openings are.


9) Search tool is very good. Easy to search for all the games where a
specific player wins with say the French Advance (3.e5), by setting the
ECO code range C02-C02, or whatever code, or range of codes you are
interested in.

10) I'd spell check your list of GM games using the spell checker. Then
do a search for duplicates. You may well find there are duplicates in
your 85,000 games, which are not found unless you spell check first.

11) When deleting twin games, be careful what one you delete. Sometimes
I find I've got two copies of a game, with one annotated and the other not.

I've found I have several GM twin games, which have all the same moves,
but a different result !!! I tend to run a chess engine on them, to see
which one has the wrong result. If white is clearly well up at the end,
and one shows the result as 0-1, then you can suspect the result is wrong.

You need to be careful with searching for twin games, as the defaults
miss a lot. Many games have "?" for the round, which is different to
another game which has the round as a number.


12) The filters are very powerful, but you need to keep your wits about
you when using them, to AND/OR the right things.

I've not used a lot of the features at all, such as the repertoire
editor, cross table, piece tracker .... etc etc

I actually add one of 3 tags to all my games, to indicate if they are
Standard, Blitz or Bullet. I do that before reading into scid, using a
shell script that analyses the time classifies them (using the same
method as used on ICC). I then often search on that tag, to only show
the standard games of my own. I don't play much blitz, so never take it
seriously. Hence I tend to ignore such games by using the filters.

If anyone else has a particular gems to share on scid, let us know.
--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)


 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 17:32:03
From:
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
I use several PGN viewers: Chesspad, Arena, and SCID.

Your requirements are:

+ View, Edit, Analyze PGN
+ Very easy to use

Chesspad is easy-to-use, loads quickly, and stable. It comes with
Crafty (elo:2647) for analysis, but supports any Winboard engine.
http://www.wmlsoftware.com/chesspad.html

Arena is somewhat harder to use, but supports strong UCI-compatible
engines such as Rybka (elo:3000+), shows variation boards, etc.
http://www.playwitharena.com/

SCID is somewhat harder to use, but is excellent for endgame and
opening statistics. How many R+P engings did you lose? Where well do
you play the French, and what was the first novelty in your game?
http://scid.sourceforge.net/

All three have a place in my studies.

---
Become a Chess Expert
http://likesforests.blogspot.com/

jraggio wrote:
> I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
> a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
> Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
> enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
> simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
> confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
> found it to be lacking as well.
>
> I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
> work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
> lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
> the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
> alas there is no Windows version.
>
> Thanks for any advice you all may have,
> John



 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 01:03:58
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app
jraggio wrote:
> I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
> a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
> Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
> enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
> simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
> confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
> found it to be lacking as well.
>
> I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
> work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
> lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
> the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
> alas there is no Windows version.
>
> Thanks for any advice you all may have,
> John
>

For viewing, editing, analysing, sorting, etc etc, 'scid' is very good.

http://scid.sourceforge.net/

There are a few screen shots at:

http://scid.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html

scid is free, runs on Windows, UNIX & Linux. Depeding on your Mac, it
might run on that too, as I'd be pretty sure it would run under OSX,
which is a UNIX operating system on the newer Macs

You can't use scid to play games in though. Shame really, as I'm sure it
could be added and would extend its functionality even more.

Everyone who uses scid first finds the intereface a bit confusing - I
did too. This is a common complaint. BUT, once you have got used to the
interface, the program is very good. So persevere, and don't be put off
too much by the interface. It actually works well. There is a scid
mailing list and several on here use the program too.

--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)


 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 16:23:21
From:
Subject: Re: Suggestion for good free windows app

jraggio wrote:
> I tried a few today and none fit my needs. I'd like to be able to use
> a program to view/edit/analyze pgn and play against the computer.
> Winboard was pretty close, but I could not figure out how to get it to
> enter variations or view move history. What I really want is a
> simpler, free version of Fritz. I also tried Arena, but found it
> confusing and difficult to use. I tried another called Nagasaki, but
> found it to be lacking as well.
>
> I actually have a Fritz 7 CD, but wanted to avoid installing it on my
> work laptop as it takes up a ton of space etc. I wanted something
> lighter and simpler if possible. I have an app that I really like for
> the Mac called Gambit, that is small and does exactly what I want, but
> alas there is no Windows version.
>
> Thanks for any advice you all may have,
> John

You might want to check this out:

http://www.reflexive.com/index.php?PAGE=game_detail&AID=326

It's not free, but it is a free demo of a VERY stripped down version of
Chessmaster 10th Edition. I don't know if it has all of the features
that you are asking about, but it should be pretty quick and easy to
find out.

jm