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Main
Date: 30 Dec 2008 09:14:51
From: Chess Hack
Subject: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually get
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I am an lower level intermediate player who is just starting to become
serious about my playing. I have never "studied" chess before, but I
am hoping that by doing so now my concentration and creativity levels
will jump in all areas of my life, specifically in my music study, but
I'd also like to be a better player in any event. I do like to play
chess a lot, and it is a truly intriguing game, but I have nobody to
play with, let alone train with. I wouldn't even know where to find a
chess club or instructor really. I am not looking to become the next
Bobby Fischer, but I wouldn't mind being able to at least fend off
total slaughter in a match with a club player either.
I already own Chessmaster 9000 and I like it alright, but I suspect
that I have hardly touched the surface of its' capabilities. I also
recently purchased Viva Media's Fritz 8 Deluxe Edition but it seems,
at least at present out of reach, but I feel I can grow into it. So
my questions are:
1. How can I use what I already have to its' best advantage?
2. How much time per day/week is required to see some serious
improvement?
3. I know that these chess engines are adjustable, but what facet
would I do best to adjust first?
4. Will playing nearly exclusively with a computer program cause me
problems when faced against another person?
Any constructive help toward becoming at least a better player would
be appreciated.
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Date: 02 Jan 2009 02:12:45
From: Dave
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually
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Chess Hack wrote:
I posted this earlier, but it cant be found on my news reader. Perhaps
my ISP has a problem, so I am posting again.
Why not play online chess, where you can play against humans and
computers? You can if you wish play against computers, but personally I
avoid playing them for complete games, but do use them sometimes to
analyse my own games.
I've used ICC
http://www.chessclub.com/
(not free, but quite inexpensive)
and FICS
http://www.freechess.org/
(free)
myself. I will not use Playchess since Chessbase really pissed me off
when they made some changes to their database, which stopped their own
program (Pocket Fritz 2) from working. Despite my numererous complainst
to them, I got told it was not a high proirity for them to fix the
database so their own program worked.
Finding a chess tutor online is not hard.
http://www.chessclub.com/activities/teachers.html
There used to be a free site which rated chess tutors on ICC.
'CountAlucard' was the highest rated at one point at least, followed
closely by 'LazyPawn'. I decided to use CountAlucard and found him
excellent. The ICC interface allows a both the teacher and student to
see and move the pieces. Audio communication is then hightly desirable.
I use Skype for this, rather than normal telephone, as Skype is free. I
know both MarticaFierro and CountAlucard use Skype too.
That site now only rates official ICC teachers (where ICC take a cut).
Someone I know recently switched from PhillyTutor to LazyPawn and says
LazyPawn is cheaper, a better player (an IM), and he is much happier. I
think it depends to some extent on personalities.
I've also used MarticaFierro (IM and WGM) for a few lessons I wanted on
the French Tarrasch. I noted from simules she played the Tarrasch a lot,
so decided to get some help from her on that specific opening. It must
have been useful, as one of Lazypawns students told me that LazyPawn was
impressed with my knowledge of the Tarrasch!
I did likewise for a few lessons from Manest on the Smith Morra gambit,
but I've now given up playing that.
Although I've not experienced it myself, apparently some of the teachers
have poor English.
> I already own Chessmaster 9000 and I like it alright, but I suspect
> that I have hardly touched the surface of its' capabilities. I also
> recently purchased Viva Media's Fritz 8 Deluxe Edition but it seems,
> at least at present out of reach, but I feel I can grow into it. So
> my questions are:
I've not used ChessMaster myself. I have a copy, but it would not run in
my PC, which is a bit unusual as it is a card which sits inside a Sun
workstation. Their copy protection would not work with the CD drive, so
I gave up - it only cost me $20 on eBAy, so I was not too bothered. I
use my Sun most of the time.
> 1. How can I use what I already have to its' best advantage?
No idea, as I dont use it. I use Toga (free) most of the time, as it is
open source and works on both my SPARC based Sun workstation and my
laptop when it runs Solaris (which it does most of the time). I
sometimes use Rybka on the laptop, but the machine needs to be running
Widows for that, which I tend to dislike. That said I do use Windows
some times. The ICC client 'Blitzin' is excellent on Windows. Although
there are free clients for Unix (Jin being the best), there is no doubt
in my mind that Jin is not as good as Blitzin. I've tried the new ICC
client 'Dasher' but gave up with it. Like a lot of programs written
today, it uses far too much resources for what it does.
> 2. How much time per day/week is required to see some serious
> improvement?
I think that is impossible to answer. It depends so much on you, now
much you consider seriour etc. Also age. Youngsters seem to play chess
much better than older people. My tutor (countalucard) said he knows of
no GM who started to learn to play chess as an adult. The other day I
looked on the FIDE web site and found that there is no player of my age
(45) in the top 82 in the world. All are younger (most much younger). In
83rd place is Karpov, but he used to be number 1 when younger!
I've been beat by many a younster on ICC. One 8 year old sticks in my
mind, for an odd reason. I once played him, was a couple of pawns up,
when he offered me a draw. I sent him a 'tell' saying "Don't take the
piss". Later when I realised he was only 8, I felt a bit guilty at
swearing at him, but I do have a dislike of people who offer draws in
lost positions.
> 3. I know that these chess engines are adjustable, but what facet
> would I do best to adjust first?
Not knowing your engine, I cant say. I feel humans are a far better bet.
> 4. Will playing nearly exclusively with a computer program cause me
> problems when faced against another person?
I suspect so. Humans make frequent errors which computers don't do. You
need to know how to punish these. A chess engine is good at finding
errors in games you played. I believe some modes on chess engines make
deliberate blunders, but I think it is better to have a human make them.
There are tactical errors that are repeasted time and time again in the
opening. An engine which makes random tactical errors is not really as
useful as looking at human games.
>
> Any constructive help toward becoming at least a better player would
> be appreciated.
It is well worth getting a chess database. I would reccomend ChessDB
(but then I would, since I am the main developer of it).
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/
Couuple that with a large database of games (free download inside
ChessDB), and you can see what moves you have played which are unusual
in an opening. You can see what are the most successful. BUT bear in
mind just because A scores better than B, does not mean A is better than
B. ChessDB will tell you if the difference in scores is statistically
significant (using a chi-squared test for significance). But often
refutations have been found for old moves, which have historically
scored well.
I personally find it useful to have a database of players around my own
level. See what they play. I know of several opening moves which are
common at my own level, but not in GM games. So you need to study games
of people at your own level too.
Practicing endgames against endgame tablebases is useful, as they play
perfectly and will tell you how many moves to mate or a draw. I've used
it to practice mating with a pair of bishops. I've never tried a bishop
and knight, as it is a rare ending. That said, I did get it once, but my
opponent managed to stalemate me. He almost got me mated, and I thought
he was going to mate me, but luckily he slipped up.
Although I never give Chessbase any more money than I can (due to their
indifference over the problem they created with Pocket Fritz 2), I must
admit their Fritz Trainer series is very good. The first one I ever
owned was on the French
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=291&user=&coin=
It only covers the French from Blacks perspective (which was why I took
some lessons from Martica on the white side of the Tarrasch). None of
the other DVDs have been quite as good as that one, but seveal are useful.
Anyway, hopefully that will give you some ideas.
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 12:04:24
From: The unknown warrior
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually
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Chess Hack wrote:
> I am an lower level intermediate player who is just starting to become
> serious about my playing. I have never "studied" chess before, but I
> am hoping that by doing so now my concentration and creativity levels
> will jump in all areas of my life, specifically in my music study, but
> I'd also like to be a better player in any event. I do like to play
> chess a lot, and it is a truly intriguing game, but I have nobody to
> play with, let alone train with. I wouldn't even know where to find a
> chess club or instructor really. I am not looking to become the next
> Bobby Fischer, but I wouldn't mind being able to at least fend off
> total slaughter in a match with a club player either.
Why not play online chess, where you can play against humans and
computers? You can if you wish play against computers, but personally I
avoid playing them for complete games, but do use them sometimes to
analyse my own games.
I've used ICC
http://www.chessclub.com/
(not free, but quite inexpensive)
and FICS
http://www.freechess.org/
(free)
myself. I will not use Playchess since Chessbase really pissed me off
when they made some changes to their database, which stopped their own
program (Pocket Fritz 2) from working. Despite my numererous complainst
to them, I got told it was not a high proirity for them to fix the
database so their own program worked.
Finding a chess tutor online is not hard.
http://www.chessclub.com/activities/teachers.html
There used to be a free site which rated chess tutors on ICC.
'CountAlucard' was the highest rated at one point at least, followed
closely by 'LazyPawn'. I decided to use CountAlucard and found him
excellent. The ICC interface allows a both the teacher and student to
see and move the pieces. Audio communication is then hightly desirable.
I use Skype for this, rather than normal telephone, as Skype is free. I
know both MarticaFierro and CountAlucard use Skype too.
That site now only rates official ICC teachers (where ICC take a cut).
Someone I know recently switched from PhillyTutor to LazyPawn and says
LazyPawn is cheaper, a better player (an IM), and he is much happier. I
think it depends to some extent on personalities.
I've also used MarticaFierro (IM and WGM) for a few lessons I wanted on
the French Tarrasch. I noted from simules she played the Tarrasch a lot,
so decided to get some help from her on that specific opening. It must
have been useful, as one of Lazypawns students told me that LazyPawn was
impressed with my knowledge of the Tarrasch!
I did likewise for a few lessons from Manest on the Smith Morra gambit,
but I've now given up playing that.
Although I've not experienced it myself, apparently some of the teachers
have poor English.
> I already own Chessmaster 9000 and I like it alright, but I suspect
> that I have hardly touched the surface of its' capabilities. I also
> recently purchased Viva Media's Fritz 8 Deluxe Edition but it seems,
> at least at present out of reach, but I feel I can grow into it. So
> my questions are:
I've not used ChessMaster myself. I have a copy, but it would not run in
my PC, which is a bit unusual as it is a card which sits inside a Sun
workstation. Their copy protection would not work with the CD drive, so
I gave up - it only cost me $20 on eBAy, so I was not too bothered. I
use my Sun most of the time.
> 1. How can I use what I already have to its' best advantage?
No idea, as I dont use it. I use Toga (free) most of the time, as it is
open source and works on both my SPARC based Sun workstation and my
laptop when it runs Solaris (which it does most of the time). I
sometimes use Rybka on the laptop, but the machine needs to be running
Widows for that, which I tend to dislike. That said I do use Windows
some times. The ICC client 'Blitzin' is excellent on Windows. Although
there are free clients for Unix (Jin being the best), there is no doubt
in my mind that Jin is not as good as Blitzin.
> 2. How much time per day/week is required to see some serious
> improvement?
I think that is impossible to answer. It depends so much on you, now
much you consider seriour etc. Also age. Youngsters seem to play chess
much better than older people. My tutor (countalucard) said he knows of
no GM who started to learn to play chess as an adult. The other day I
looked on the FIDE web site and found that there is no player of my age
(45) in the top 82 in the world. All are younger (most much younger). In
83rd place is Karpov, but he used to be number 1 when younger!
I've been beat by many a younster on ICC. One 8 year old sticks in my
mind, for an odd reason. I once played him, was a couple of pawns up,
when he offered me a draw. I sent him a 'tell' saying "Don't take the
piss". Later when I realised he was only 8, I felt a bit guilty at
swearing at him, but I do have a dislike of people who offer draws in
lost positions.
> 3. I know that these chess engines are adjustable, but what facet
> would I do best to adjust first?
Not knowing your engine, I cant say. I feel humans are a far better bet.
> 4. Will playing nearly exclusively with a computer program cause me
> problems when faced against another person?
I suspect so. Humans make frequent errors which computers don't do. You
need to know how to punish these. A chess engine is good at finding
errors in games you played.
>
> Any constructive help toward becoming at least a better player would
> be appreciated.
It is well worth getting a chess database. I would reccomend ChessDB
(but then I would, since I am the main developer of it).
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/
Couuple that with a large database of games, and you can see what moves
you have played which are unusual in an opening. You can see what are
the most successful. BUT bear in mind just because A scores better than
B, does not mean A is better than B. ChessDB will tell you if the
difference in scores is statistically significant (using a chi-squared
test for significance). But often refutations have been found for old
moves, which have historically scored well.
I personally find it useful to have a database of players around my own
level. See what they play. I know of several opening moves which are
common at my own level, but not in GM games. So you need to study games
of people at your own level too.
Although I never give Chessbase any more money than I can (due to their
indifference over the problem they created with Pocket Fritz 2), I must
admit their Fritz Trainer series is very good. The first one I ever
owned was on the French
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=291&user=&coin=
It only covers the French from Blacks perspective (which was why I took
some lessons from Martica on the white side of the Tarrasch). None of
the other DVDs have been quite as good as that one, but seveal are useful.
Anyway, hopefully that will give you some ideas.
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 21:47:48
From: Sanny
Subject: Play at GetClub free
|
> Any constructive help toward becoming at least a better player would
> be appreciated.
Play a few games at GetClub, You can play 500 games for free.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
It records each game you play. After playing a game you can show the
recorded games to players and they will tell you what are your
weaknesses.
Since you are weak player. I suggest you to play with Baby & Beginner
Levels at GetClub.
For strong players Easy & Normal Level are a good Choice to play.
Baby: 0-2 sec / move
Beginner: 6-15 sec / move
Easy: 20-60 sec / move
Normal: 2-4 min / move
As your game improves you can start playing the higher levels.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 20:15:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually
|
On Dec 31, 9:57=A0am, Chess Hack <[email protected] > wrote:
> At the risk of being flamed here, can I assume that this USENET group
> is really no longer concerned with questions/discussion of computer
> chess programs and has instead shifted to political chess discussions,
> even though there is a group (rec.games.chess.politics) already
> devoted to that? =A0That being the case, can anyone here tell me where
> to re-post my question so as to get a response
Well, I just now spotted your question, as I have
gotten used to reading (mainly) rec.games.chess.
misc, as many, many postings from the several
groups are crossposted to others, and rgcm
seems to sweep up the vast majority.
One thing you will find is that playing against
a really strong chess program is very different
from playing other humans. While humans
make a large number of mistakes, these newer
programs are a different breed; I just finished up
looking over some of Paul Morphy's old games,
and my computer had no trouble finding things
he missed completely, though his active play
still represents a sort of "ideal" to which many
players strive.
I've been playing quite a few games against
a terrible chess program at GetClub.com, and
the fact that it goes out of book very early on
gives me plenty of practice at thinking for
myself, and not just trying to recall moves by
rote. Unfortunately, this is of less help in
preparing me to play against other humans,
for they will rarely play quite so poorly as this.
One idea would be for you to play several
slow games against your strongest computer,
presumably losing them all, and then, after
some time has passed, carefully play over
the games again, but this time from the other
side. You will see exactly how to refute
those moves you had thought were good, but
which weren't. This is similar to doing what
Bobby Fischer once suggested: reading
through an openings book, and then doing
the same thing again; he presumably
thought that on the second time through,
one could recall many of the killer moves
which had been virtually impossible to see
the first time around. Well, that is a lot of
work!
I've been going though some old magazines
that I intend to toss out, looking to see if
there is anything particularly interesting. On
occasion, I punch a game or perhaps just a
single position into my chess program, to
see how published analysis holds up to the
scrutiny of an all-powerful god-- er, computer.
Many times, the writer was essentially
correct, but you would be shocked at how
much of what once passed for "grandmaster
analysis" turns out to be merely off-the-cuff
commentary, completely wrong!! I get the
impression that these writers may have just
glanced at the position for a few seconds,
though you'd never guess it from the
authorotative tone of their comments. By
and large, these magazines are filled with
junk annotations, but you do get to see the
moves of the games.
One thing I have done is to try and go
over each and every one of my tournament
games with the computer. Win, lose or
draw, I find numerous improvements for
both sides, but it is the tactical blunders
that really annoy me. In one of these
games, I had a somewhat simplified
ending in which I could have forcibly won
a piece, but I failed to calculate deeply
enough; I didn't even need to see the
computer's main line-- it was sufficient to
see the position score jump to a piece
ahead; that's when I knew I could trap the
darned piece.
By the way, none of my recent learning
involves the chess openings-- I never even
installed an openings book, so it's just
tactics, tactics, and more tactics! And
that's how I like it these days. This is
where the computer can help you the
most: by pointing out clear refutations
you would otherwise struggle to discern
on your own. You can try any move you
like, and the computer will respond by
displaying the refutation-- and quickly.
It is unfortunate that by following the
rules of not crossposting, you have been
largely ignored here. It reminds me of the
way things are on the local highways: the
posted speed limit is 55 mph, but if you
drive that speed you will find yourself in
the path of a hoarde of madmen, all
screaming around the loop at around 70
miles per hour! Go 75 and you will find a
police car on your tail... wanting you to get
out of the left lane so he can simply pass
you.
-- help bot
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 08:00:52
From: Chess Hack
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually
|
On Dec 31, 10:12=A0am, Simon Krahnke <[email protected] > wrote:
> * Chess Hack <[email protected]> (15:57) schrieb:
>
> > At the risk of being flamed here, can I assume that this USENET group
> > is really no longer concerned with questions/discussion of computer
> > chess programs and has instead shifted to political chess discussions,
> > even though there is a group (rec.games.chess.politics) already
> > devoted to that?
>
> Just ignore all the crossposts from there. The Sloan-Bunch posts all
> over chess related groups. Unfortunately there is not much on-topic left
> here. But there are generally some people who could answer your question
> (But I'm not one of them).
>
> > =A0That being the case, can anyone here tell me where
> > to re-post my question so as to get a response?
>
> Plus it's holiday time. I don't suspect it's much better elsewhere.
>
> mfg, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 simon .... l
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll re-post the question after the
Holiday and see what transpires then. Meantime, Happy New Year to you!
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 09:12:09
From: Nasty Dad
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to
|
I do not have that one but you just play it and then have the computer
analyze your game and then you can tell where you made mistakes or weak
moves ....
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 16:12:33
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually get better?
|
* Chess Hack <[email protected] > (15:57) schrieb:
> At the risk of being flamed here, can I assume that this USENET group
> is really no longer concerned with questions/discussion of computer
> chess programs and has instead shifted to political chess discussions,
> even though there is a group (rec.games.chess.politics) already
> devoted to that?
Just ignore all the crossposts from there. The Sloan-Bunch posts all
over chess related groups. Unfortunately there is not much on-topic left
here. But there are generally some people who could answer your question
(But I'm not one of them).
> That being the case, can anyone here tell me where
> to re-post my question so as to get a response?
Plus it's holiday time. I don't suspect it's much better elsewhere.
mfg, simon .... l
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 06:57:36
From: Chess Hack
Subject: Re: What is the best way to use a computer chess program to actually
|
On Dec 30, 12:14=A0pm, Chess Hack <[email protected] > wrote:
> I am an lower level intermediate player who is just starting to become
> serious about my playing. =A0I have never "studied" chess before, but I
> am hoping that by doing so now my concentration and creativity levels
> will jump in all areas of my life, specifically in my music study, but
> I'd also like to be a better player in any event. =A0I do like to play
> chess a lot, and it is a truly intriguing game, but I have nobody to
> play with, let alone train with. =A0I wouldn't even know where to find a
> chess club or instructor really. =A0I am not looking to become the next
> Bobby Fischer, but I wouldn't mind being able to at least fend off
> total slaughter in a match with a club player either.
>
> I already own Chessmaster 9000 and I like it alright, but I suspect
> that I have hardly touched the surface of its' capabilities. =A0I also
> recently purchased Viva Media's Fritz 8 Deluxe Edition but it seems,
> at least at present out of reach, but I feel I can grow into it. =A0So
> my questions are:
>
> 1. How can I use what I already have to its' best advantage?
> 2. How much time per day/week is required to see some serious
> improvement?
> 3. I know that these chess engines are adjustable, but what facet
> would I do best to adjust first?
> 4. Will playing nearly exclusively with a computer program cause me
> problems when faced against another person?
>
> Any constructive help toward becoming at least a better player would
> be appreciated.
At the risk of being flamed here, can I assume that this USENET group
is really no longer concerned with questions/discussion of computer
chess programs and has instead shifted to political chess discussions,
even though there is a group (rec.games.chess.politics) already
devoted to that? That being the case, can anyone here tell me where
to re-post my question so as to get a response?
|
|
