Main
Date: 04 Sep 2006 16:23:31
From: [email protected]
Subject: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
crossposted from rgca

I don't have the KRPKBP database, and can't find online access to it

...if someone does, I'd appreciate these queries (I suspect they are
all losses, but I'm not sure)

This ending is non-trivial (for humans, anyway) even without the Black
pawn on f6. In the five-piece ending, there are drawn positions when
White advances the h-pawn too quickly....

5k2/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1


6k1/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1


5k2/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1


6k1/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1


5k2/R4b2/3K1p2/8/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1





 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 18:41:53
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
and Mig himself notes (and deprecates as trivial for a WC contender)
another nice line:

55. Kd7 b5 56. Ne6+ Kf7 57. Nd8+ Kf6 58. Nc6 Rb1 59. Kd6 b4 60. Kc5 b3
61. Kc4 b2 62. Kc3



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 18:20:07
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database

[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> > 55.Kd7! b5 56.Ne6+ Kg8 (56...Kf7
> > 57.Nd8+! Kf6 58.Nc6!) 57.d6 (not the only move, but perhaps the most
> > logical) 57...b4 58.Nc5! Kf7 59.Kc6! Rc1 60.Kb5! Rxc5+ 61.Kxc5! b3
> > 62.Kc6!
>
> Mig on chessninja.com mentions that 55.Kd7 would have drawn. Look at
> this amazing line found by "Soikins" & posted on chessninja.com (see
> the rd. 2 "Daily Dirt" comments)
>
> 58....Rc1 59.Nd3 Rc4 60.Ne5 Rd4 61.Nc6 b3 62.Nxd4 b2 63.Nc6 =
>
> Beyond knowing that the position after 58...Rc1 is somehow drawn, I
> have not independently confirmed this on the Shredder online Nalimov DB
> (which now seems rather busy :-) )

The Shredder / Nalimov DB confirms the soundness of Soikins's line,
though it's not the only way to draw...



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 18:13:43
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
[email protected] wrote:


> 55.Kd7! b5 56.Ne6+ Kg8 (56...Kf7
> 57.Nd8+! Kf6 58.Nc6!) 57.d6 (not the only move, but perhaps the most
> logical) 57...b4 58.Nc5! Kf7 59.Kc6! Rc1 60.Kb5! Rxc5+ 61.Kxc5! b3
> 62.Kc6!

Mig on chessninja.com mentions that 55.Kd7 would have drawn. Look at
this amazing line found by "Soikins" & posted on chessninja.com (see
the rd. 2 "Daily Dirt" comments)

58....Rc1 59.Nd3 Rc4 60.Ne5 Rd4 61.Nc6 b3 62.Nxd4 b2 63.Nc6 =

Beyond knowing that the position after 58...Rc1 is somehow drawn, I
have not independently confirmed this on the Shredder online Nalimov DB
(which now seems rather busy :-) )



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 17:17:34
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
Corrected version: sorry about that! (I was consulting online DB by
hand and made numerous errors in copying):


Topalov,V - Kramnik,V [D19]
2006 World Championship Match (2)
[Shredder 6-man DB / Bill Brock]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.0-0
Nbd7 9.Qe2 Bg6 10.e4 0-0 11.Bd3 Bh5 12.e5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Qe3 Bg6
15.Ng5 Re8 16.f4 Bxd3 17.Qxd3 f5 18.Be3 Nf8 19.Kh1 Rc8 20.g4 Qd7 21.Rg1
Be7 22.Nf3 Rc4 23.Rg2 fxg4 24.Rxg4 Rxa4 25.Rag1 g6 26.h4 Rb4 27.h5 Qb5
28.Qc2 Rxb2 29.hxg6 h5 30.g7 hxg4 31.gxf8Q+ Bxf8 32.Qg6+ Bg7 33.f5 Re7
34.f6 Qe2 35.Qxg4 Rf7 36.Rc1 Rc2 37.Rxc2 Qd1+ 38.Kg2 Qxc2+ 39.Kg3 Qe4
40.Bf4 Qf5 41.Qxf5 exf5 42.Bg5 a5 43.Kf4 a4 44.Kxf5 a3 45.Bc1 Bf8 46.e6
Rc7 47.Bxa3 Bxa3 48.Ke5 Rc1 49.Ng5 Rf1 50.e7 Re1+ 51.Kxd5 Bxe7 52.fxe7
Rxe7 53.Kd6 Re1 [Nunn Convention 53...Re3! 54.d5 Kf8! 55.Kd7 b5!
56.Ne6+ Kg8!! (56...Kf7 maintains the win, but makes no progress after
57.Nd8+ Kf8! 58.Ne6+) 57.d6 b4! 58.Nc5 Kf7! 59.Kd8 (59.Kc7 Rc3!)
59...b3 and wins] 54.d5 Kf8 55.Ne6+ [55.Kd7! b5 56.Ne6+ Kg8 (56...Kf7
57.Nd8+! Kf6 58.Nc6!) 57.d6 (not the only move, but perhaps the most
logical) 57...b4 58.Nc5! Kf7 59.Kc6! Rc1 60.Kb5! Rxc5+ 61.Kxc5! b3
62.Kc6!] 55...Ke8 56.Nc7+ Kd8 57.Ne6+ Kc8 58.Ke7 Rh1 59.Ng5 b5 60.d6
Rd1 61.Ne6 b4 62.Nc5 Re1+ 63.Kf6 Re3 0-1



  
Date: 25 Sep 2006 10:29:55
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
En/na [email protected] ha escrit:
> Corrected version: sorry about that! (I was consulting online DB by
> hand and made numerous errors in copying):
(...)

thanks again
AT



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 16:57:39
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
You're right: there are notation errors, which I'm correcting now. My
apologies.

But the conclusion seems accurate....



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 13:26:31
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
But humans aren't totally pathetic (after 58.Ke7):

2k5/1p2K3/4N3/3P4/8/8/8/4r3 b - - 0 1

Kramnik's 58...Rh1! is "box"



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 13:01:06
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database

[email protected] wrote:

[...]

>
> 5k2/1p6/3K4/3P2N1/8/8/8/4r3 w - - 0 1
>
> 54.Kd7! draws: this I understand (although it's far from obvious to me
> that this is the only drawing move).
>
> What a wonderful match!

One critical line seems to be 54...b5 55.Ne6+ Kg8 (if 55...Kf7 56.Nd8+
followed by 57.Nc6) 56.d6 b4 57.Nc5 Kf7 58.Kc6! Rc1 59.Kb5! Rxc5
60.Kxc5 b3 61.Kc6! =



 
Date: 24 Sep 2006 12:36:20
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
Hmm, Kramnik missed a tablebase win & Topalov missed a tablebase draw:
very humbling for humans....

6k1/1p2r3/3K4/6N1/3P4/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

51...Re3! (Nunn Convention hereafter, except as noted) wins, but
Kramnik played 51...Re1. One crucial line: 51...Re3! 52.Kd7 b5! 53.Ne6
Kg8!! (that's one NC and one wow exclam) 54.d6 b4! 55.Nc5 Kf7! 56.Kd8
(56.Kc7? Rc3!) 56...b3 and wins

5k2/1p6/3K4/3P2N1/8/8/8/4r3 w - - 0 1

54.Kd7! draws: this I understand (although it's far from obvious to me
that this is the only drawing move).

What a wonderful match!



  
Date: 25 Sep 2006 00:13:43
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKNP database
please, can you check this?

in first position it's black to move his 53th move (not 51)
and in second position it's white to move his 55th move (not 54)

is all correct?
It seems to me there are some illegal moves in your lines.

thanks,
AT

En/na [email protected] ha escrit:
> Hmm, Kramnik missed a tablebase win & Topalov missed a tablebase draw:
> very humbling for humans....
>
> 6k1/1p2r3/3K4/6N1/3P4/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
>
> 51...Re3! (Nunn Convention hereafter, except as noted) wins, but
> Kramnik played 51...Re1. One crucial line: 51...Re3! 52.Kd7 b5! 53.Ne6
> Kg8!! (that's one NC and one wow exclam) 54.d6 b4! 55.Nc5 Kf7! 56.Kd8
> (56.Kc7? Rc3!) 56...b3 and wins
>
> 5k2/1p6/3K4/3P2N1/8/8/8/4r3 w - - 0 1
>
> 54.Kd7! draws: this I understand (although it's far from obvious to me
> that this is the only drawing move).
>
> What a wonderful match!
>



 
Date: 13 Sep 2006 22:45:58
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
Tony M wrote:

[...]

>
> The entire 6 man tablebase set is now up at the Shredder site, except
> for the 5 vs 1 piece sets.
>
> Tony

Wow, thanks!!



 
Date: 10 Sep 2006 09:31:48
From:
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database

[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > crossposted from rgca
> > > >
> > > > I don't have the KRPKBP database, and can't find online access to it
> > > >
> > > > ...if someone does, I'd appreciate these queries (I suspect they are
> > > > all losses, but I'm not sure)
> > > >
> > > > This ending is non-trivial (for humans, anyway) even without the Black
> > > > pawn on f6. In the five-piece ending, there are drawn positions when
> > > > White advances the h-pawn too quickly....
> > > >
> > > > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5k2/R4b2/3K1p2/8/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
> > >
> > > http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/tablebases-online/
> > >
> > > The entire 6-man set is now available online.
> >
> > Well, actually, "online" is not the right term. At the above site, they
> > are available for DOWNLOAD, but are not searchable. If you just want to
> > enter a position into a website and get the result, go here:
> >
> > http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
> >
> > jm
>
> I'd already tried that one: it appears that KRPKBP isn't searchable
> there (yet). A terabyte here, a terabyte there...

The Shredder site will have the complete set very soon. I got the last
files from Nalimov myself last month and they've been promulgated to
many people since. And downloading is a piece of cake, just 1.12 TB.



  
Date: 21 Sep 2006 14:56:26
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
<[email protected] > wrote:
> And downloading is a piece of cake, just 1.12 TB.

I would just like to say that I like the idea of one trillion bites of
cake. Thank you.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Disgusting Cheese (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ brick of cheese but it'll turn your
stomach!


  
Date: 14 Sep 2006 01:47:45
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
On 10 Sep 2006 09:31:48 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>The Shredder site will have the complete set very soon. I got the last
>files from Nalimov myself last month and they've been promulgated to
>many people since. And downloading is a piece of cake, just 1.12 TB.

The entire 6 man tablebase set is now up at the Shredder site, except
for the 5 vs 1 piece sets.

Tony


 
Date: 05 Sep 2006 15:19:29
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > crossposted from rgca
> > >
> > > I don't have the KRPKBP database, and can't find online access to it
> > >
> > > ...if someone does, I'd appreciate these queries (I suspect they are
> > > all losses, but I'm not sure)
> > >
> > > This ending is non-trivial (for humans, anyway) even without the Black
> > > pawn on f6. In the five-piece ending, there are drawn positions when
> > > White advances the h-pawn too quickly....
> > >
> > > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > >
> > >
> > > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > >
> > >
> > > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > >
> > >
> > > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> > >
> > >
> > > 5k2/R4b2/3K1p2/8/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
> >
> > http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/tablebases-online/
> >
> > The entire 6-man set is now available online.
>
> Well, actually, "online" is not the right term. At the above site, they
> are available for DOWNLOAD, but are not searchable. If you just want to
> enter a position into a website and get the result, go here:
>
> http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
>
> jm

I'd already tried that one: it appears that KRPKBP isn't searchable
there (yet). A terabyte here, a terabyte there...



 
Date: 05 Sep 2006 12:29:00
From:
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database

[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > crossposted from rgca
> >
> > I don't have the KRPKBP database, and can't find online access to it
> >
> > ...if someone does, I'd appreciate these queries (I suspect they are
> > all losses, but I'm not sure)
> >
> > This ending is non-trivial (for humans, anyway) even without the Black
> > pawn on f6. In the five-piece ending, there are drawn positions when
> > White advances the h-pawn too quickly....
> >
> > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> >
> >
> > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> >
> >
> > 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> >
> >
> > 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
> >
> >
> > 5k2/R4b2/3K1p2/8/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
>
> http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/tablebases-online/
>
> The entire 6-man set is now available online.

Well, actually, "online" is not the right term. At the above site, they
are available for DOWNLOAD, but are not searchable. If you just want to
enter a position into a website and get the result, go here:

http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

jm



 
Date: 04 Sep 2006 22:38:23
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database
Thanks for the info, but that's a lot of download, and I assume that
eMule would take forever from behind a firewall (can't take it down for
business reasons).

I had no idea that all relevant 6-man databases were complete! That's
an achievement.



 
Date: 04 Sep 2006 20:53:51
From:
Subject: Re: positions for the Nalimov 6-piece KRPKBP database

[email protected] wrote:
> crossposted from rgca
>
> I don't have the KRPKBP database, and can't find online access to it
>
> ...if someone does, I'd appreciate these queries (I suspect they are
> all losses, but I'm not sure)
>
> This ending is non-trivial (for humans, anyway) even without the Black
> pawn on f6. In the five-piece ending, there are drawn positions when
> White advances the h-pawn too quickly....
>
> 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
>
>
> 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/7P/8/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
>
>
> 5k2/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
>
>
> 6k1/R7/5p1K/8/8/7P/2b5/8 b - - 0 1
>
>
> 5k2/R4b2/3K1p2/8/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/tablebases-online/

The entire 6-man set is now available online.