Main
Date: 08 Feb 2008 07:11:32
From: Sanny
Subject: A funny game between GetClub & Jester.
I used to think Jester plays very good, But today in a game with
Beginner Level, It lost a winning game. It was ahead of a Rook but
still lost the game See and tell me if you see any mistake by GetClub
Beginner Level.

Today GetClub Game was much improved so you will find very good games
at GetClub Chess.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Game Played between Jester and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM15934&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{2} d7-d6{0}
2. d2-d4{6} Ng8-f6{0}
3. Nb1-c3{6} g7-g6{0}
4. Bc1-g5{6} c7-c6{10}
5. Bg5-f6{10} e7-f6{8}
6. Bf1-c4{10} b7-b5{6}
7. Bc4-d3{10} b5-b4{8}
8. Nc3-e2{10} Bc8-a6{10}
9. Bd3-a6{10} Nb8-a6{6}
10. Qd1-d3{8} Qd8-a5{6}
11. Qd3-c4{12} Qa5-b5{8}
12. Qc4-b5{10} c6-b5{6}
13. Ng1-f3{10} g6-g5{14}
14. Ke1-g1{12} Ra8-c8{6}
15. Ra1-c1{8} g5-g4{8}
16. Nf3-h4{10} h7-h5{10}
17. Nh4-f5{10} Rh8-g8{10}
18. Ne2-f4{12} Rg8-g5{6}
19. Nf4-d5{10} Rg5-g6{8}
20. f2-f3{12} Rc8-c6{6}
21. f3-g4{10} h5-g4{8}
22. Nf5-h4{10} Rg6-h6{6}
23. g2-g3{10} Rc6-c4{8}
24. Rf1-f4{10} Rc4-d4{8}
25. Nh4-f5{12} Rd4-d2{6}
26. Nf5-h6{12} Bf8-h6{8}
27. Nd5-f6{10} Ke8-d8{8}
28. Rf4-g4{10} Na6-c5{8}
29. Rc1-f1{10} Bh6-e3{8}
30. Kg1-h1{24} Be3-f2{6}
31. Rg4-g8{14} Kd8-c7{6}
32. Nf6-d5{8} Kc7-b7{8}
33. Rg8-f8{8} f7-f6{6}
34. Rf8-f6{10} Nc5-e4{6}
35. Rf6-f7{10} Kb7-a8{6}
36. Nd5-c7{10} Ka8-b7{16}
37. Rf7-e7{10} Kb7-c8{8}
38. Nc7-b5{10} Ne4-g5{8}
39. Nb5-a7{10} Kc8-b8{6}
40. Na7-c6{10} Kb8-c8{6}
41. Nc6-b4{10} Bf2-b6{8}
42. h2-h4{12} Bb6-d8{10}
43. Re7-e8{10} Ng5-h7{12}
44. Re8-h8{12} d6-d5{6}
45. Rh8-h7{10} d5-d4{8}
46. Nb4-c6{10} d4-d3{6}
47. Nc6-d8{10} d3-c2{8}
48. Rf1-c1{10} Rd2-d1{6}
49. Kh1-g2{10} Rd1-c1{10}
50. Nd8-e6{10} Rc1-g1{6}
51. Kg2-g1{12} Qc2-c1{Q}{10}
52. Kg1-g2{12} Qc1-c2{6}
53. Kg2-g1{10} Qc2-h7{6}
54. Kg1-f2{10} Qh7-c2{8}
55. Kf2-e3{10} Qc2-b2{6}
56. Ke3-f3{10} Qb2-b7{6}
57. Kf3-f4{12} Qb7-f7{12}
58. Kf4-e5{22} Qf7-f3{10}
59. Ne6-f4{10} Qf3-g3{12}
60. h4-h5{8} Qg3-g5{6}
61. Ke5-e4{10} Qg5-c5{12}
62. Ke4-f3{10} Qc5-g5{6}
63. Kf3-e4{10} Qg5-c5{16}
64. Ke4-f3{10} Qc5-c6{8}
65. Kf3-g4{10} Kc8-b8{6}
66. Kg4-g5{10} Qc6-c5{10}
67. Kg5-g4{10} Qc5-c8{6}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM15934&game=Chess

So what do you think about this game was it won because of Jester
Mistake or it was won because of good moves by GetClub Beginner Level.

Do you find the moves much stronger than earlier or you still find
mistakes in the game of GetClub Beginner Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 13 Feb 2008 23:02:14
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
On Feb 14, 10:20=A0am, help bot <nomorech...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 13, 8:05 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Today 2 big bugs were removed So It will play much better game, I saw
> > the game you won with Master. Actually I can see a few wrong moves by
> > that bug. But now I think you will not get those weak moves atleast
> > with Higher Levels.
>
> =A0 Actually, I had several bugs of my own
> which are now eliminated, so I too will
> play "perfect"chess; all our games from
> this point forward should be perfect draws,
> the result of our perfect play, after exactly
> 256 moves apiece. =A0You no doubt already
> know the line I am talking about, since it
> is the only one where Black holds a draw.
>
> =A0 I may go back and start playing bad
> moves again, just to make it interesting;
> but those are merely bugs-- quite easily
> eradicated with a can of Raid.
>
> =A0 -- buggy bot

So now both you and GetClub will play better moves, I will enjoy such
games.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 13 Feb 2008 21:20:49
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
On Feb 13, 8:05 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Today 2 big bugs were removed So It will play much better game, I saw
> the game you won with Master. Actually I can see a few wrong moves by
> that bug. But now I think you will not get those weak moves atleast
> with Higher Levels.

Actually, I had several bugs of my own
which are now eliminated, so I too will
play "perfect" chess; all our games from
this point forward should be perfect draws,
the result of our perfect play, after exactly
256 moves apiece. You no doubt already
know the line I am talking about, since it
is the only one where Black holds a draw.

I may go back and start playing bad
moves again, just to make it interesting;
but those are merely bugs-- quite easily
eradicated with a can of Raid.


-- buggy bot


 
Date: 13 Feb 2008 05:05:11
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
Today 2 big bugs were removed So It will play much better game, I saw
the game you won with Master. Actually I can see a few wrong moves by
that bug. But now I think you will not get those weak moves atleast
with Higher Levels.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 12 Feb 2008 22:41:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
On Feb 13, 1:24 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> > Some players are no doubt "resigning"
> > only because there is no other way to stop
> > the game and begin another one; this is a
> > flaw in the interface-- there is no way to
> > stop a drawn game (such as K & N vs. K)
> > apart from resigning. Although such games
> > are scored atGetClubas "wins" for the
> > computer, they are in fact drawn according
> > to the laws ofchess.
>
> In case of (such as K & N vs. K) Program will automatically give Draw.
>
> Here are the cases where the Game will automatically end in draw.
>
> 1. K vs K
> 2. K-N vs K
> 3. K-B vs K
> 4. K-B vs K-N
> 5. K-N vs K-B
> 6. K-R vs K-N
> 7. K-R vs K-B
> 8. K-Q vs K-R
>
> In all above end games the game will endup as a draw.


That is all mucked up.


In cases where it is K-R vs. K-N, some positions
allow the Knight to be "cornered", then captured;
for this to happen, the King and Knight must be
separated from one another-- preferably in
opposite corners.

In some cases of K-R vs. K-B, if the weaker
side's King is against the side, it may be
possible to force a win (using /zugzwang/).
In any case, the laws of chess allow for an
attempt to be made-- up to the fifty moves.

And of course, in K-Q vs. K-R, it is always
a forced win if the side with a Queen is not
already in a mess. Once again, it is not
possible to demonstrate an "attacking"
strategy which forces the win; to the contrary,
the win can be accomplished using a
combination of attacks, plus /zugzwang/.

Also note that only the K vs. K, K-N vs. K,
K-B vs. K, and K-B vs. K- same color B are
drawn automatically (insufficient mating
material), according to the laws of chess.

Let me just say that before everyone jumps
on Sanny for not knowing this stuff, I once
played a USCF-rated Expert who offered me
a draw after the game was already over! I
believe it was K-N vs. K, or something like
that. LOL


-- help bot


 
Date: 12 Feb 2008 22:24:23
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
> =A0 Some players are no doubt "resigning"
> only because there is no other way to stop
> the game and begin another one; this is a
> flaw in the interface-- there is no way to
> stop a drawn game (such as K & N vs. K)
> apart from resigning. =A0Although such games
> are scored atGetClubas "wins" for the
> computer, they are in fact drawn according
> to the laws ofchess.
>


In case of (such as K & N vs. K) Program will automatically give Draw.

Here are the cases where the Game will automatically end in draw.

1. K vs K
2. K-N vs K
3. K-B vs K
4. K-B vs K-N
5. K-N vs K-B
6. K-R vs K-N
7. K-R vs K-B
8. K-Q vs K-R

In all above end games the game will endup as a draw.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html





 
Date: 12 Feb 2008 16:42:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
On Feb 12, 2:38 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:


> > Neither one; the game was not completed, so
> > we will never know what the result would have
> > been had it been played out in accordance with
> > the rules ofchess, and not halted prematurely.
>
> I do not complete the game as Much of it was over and It would have
> taken 30-40 moves for GetClub to win.

I disagree; the program was obviously playing
meaningless spite checks, which could very
easily have led to a draw, or in some cases
where it may attempt to avoid a repetition, to
the opponent advancing its pawn to become a
Queen (and possibly even win).

There is no reason to assume it was going to
inevitably win. You can /say/ that GC won the
game, but it did not; a game is "won" via
checkmate, or the resignation of the other
program-- neither of which occurred.


> As it know nothing in end game.

See? All those mean critics who kept saying
that Sanny knows nothing about chess are
hereby proved wrong! He knows enough to
recognize that his program knows nothing in
the endgame-- the very same assessment a
grandmaster would have made. ; >D


> The reasion it plays bad in End Game is That In end game you are not
> getting any advantage of killing pieces So all moves are equal unless
> it sees a Mate move.

Mobility: this is the key. The mobility of the
chess men must be scored, so that that of
the enemy is minimized, and that of the GC
program is maximized. This can often lead
to checkmate.


> But that wont stop me from developing end game. Butr let me first make
> the Middle Game Perfect. Once it becomes perfect in Middle Game I
> think End Game can be taught later.

If you can get the openings perfect and the
middle game perfect, you may not /need/ an
endgame anymore! It's like dropping a nuke
and then sending in the National Guard to
"mop up". (Just hand out some purple
rain-suits and tell them that wearing them
will protect them from the radiation.)


> Most Often if the opponent is
> loosing a game It will atleast save its pieces and force the opponent
> to Resign.

Some players are no doubt "resigning"
only because there is no other way to stop
the game and begin another one; this is a
flaw in the interface-- there is no way to
stop a drawn game (such as K & N vs. K)
apart from resigning. Although such games
are scored at GetClub as "wins" for the
computer, they are in fact drawn according
to the laws of chess.


-- help bot


 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 23:38:22
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub
On Feb 12, 10:51=A0am, help bot <nomorech...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > I used to think Jester plays very good, But today in a game with
> > Beginner Level, It lost a winning game.
>
> =A0 Um, no, it did not. =A0It's pretty obvious that "somebody"
> intervened to stop the game when it became apparent
> that theGetClubprogram was making zero headway.
>
> =A0 That "somebody" seems to have unjustly forfeited the
> Jester program, when it was doing just fine on the board
> (see link below).
>
> > View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM15934&game=
=3DChess
>
> > So what do you think about this game was =A0it won because of Jester
> > Mistake or it was won because of good moves byGetClubBeginner Level.
>
> =A0Neither one; the game was not completed, so
> we will never know what the result would have
> been had it been played out in accordance with
> the rules ofchess, and not halted prematurely.
>

I do not complete the game as Much of it was over and It would have
taken 30-40 moves for GetClub to win. As it know nothing in end game.

The reasion it plays bad in End Game is That In end game you are not
getting any advantage of killing pieces So all moves are equal unless
it sees a Mate move.

But that wont stop me from developing end game. Butr let me first make
the Middle Game Perfect. Once it becomes perfect in Middle Game I
think End Game can be taught later. Most Often if the opponent is
loosing a game It will atleast save its pieces and force the opponent
to Resign.

After playing 10-20 Moves Opponent will understand It cannot win and
will Resign. Incase it has equal Material the Game will draw by Three
fold repetition.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:47:59
From: Sanny
Subject: A new Game
A new game between Jester and Beginner Level. Here again Beginner lost
badly was there a way to save its pawns?

Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16357&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{4} e7-e6{0}
2. d2-d4{6} d7-d5{0}
3. e4-d5{6} e6-d5{0}
4. Bf1-d3{6} Ng8-f6{0}
5. Bc1-g5{12} Nb8-c6{8}
6. Qd1-e2{14} Bc8-e6{6}
7. Bd3-b5{18} Bf8-b4{10}
8. c2-c3{10} Bb4-d6{8}
9. Bb5-c6{10} b7-c6{6}
10. Qe2-a6{12} Qd8-c8{6}
11. Qa6-c8{24} Ra8-c8{6}
12. Bg5-f6{14} g7-f6{8}
13. Ng1-f3{10} c6-c5{8}
14. Nb1-d2{12} Rh8-g8{8}
15. g2-g3{16} Rg8-g6{8}
16. Ke1-c1{12} c5-c4{10}
17. Nf3-h4{10} Rg6-g7{8}
18. Rh1-e1{14} Bd6-e7{6}
19. f2-f4{10} f6-f5{6}
20. Nh4-f3{12} c7-c5{6}
21. Nd2-f1{14} Be7-f6{6}
22. Nf1-e3{12} Ke8-f8{6}
23. Kc1-c2{10} h7-h6{8}
24. Rd1-d2{10} Rg7-g6{8}
25. d4-c5{10} Rc8-c5{6}
26. Re1-d1{10} Rc5-b5{6}
27. Ne3-d5{12} Bf6-g7{8}
28. Nf3-h4{12} Rg6-g4{8}
29. Nd5-e3{12} Bg7-f6{6}
30. Ne3-g4{16} f5-g4{10}
31. Nh4-g2{10} Rb5-h5{8}
32. Ng2-e3{12} Rh5-b5{6}
33. Rd2-d6{12} Bf6-e7{6}
34. Rd6-a6{10} Rb5-h5{12}
35. Rd1-d2{14} Be7-c5{6}
36. Ra6-a5{12} Kf8-g7{10}
37. Kc2-d1{12} Kg7-h7{8}
38. Ne3-c4{10} Kh7-h8{8}
39. Nc4-e3{10} Be6-a2{8}
40. b2-b4{10} Ba2-b3{8}
41. Ne3-c2{12} f7-f6{6}
42. b4-c5{14} Bb3-g8{6}
43. Nc2-e3{14} f6-f5{8}
44. c5-c6{12} Rh5-h3{14}
45. Rd2-d8{38} Rh3-h2{10}
46. Kd1-e1{10} a7-a6{6}
47. c6-c7{10} Rh2-h1{8}
48. Ne3-f1{10} Kh8-g7{6}
49. Qc7-c8{Q}{12} Bg8-f7{6}
50. Qc8-f5{12} Bf7-c4{8}
51. Rd8-d7{8} Kg7-g8{6}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester : (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16357&game=Chess

Here again Beginner lost badly was there a way to save its pawns? It
has to sac its rook for no reasion else its two pawns would get
killed. So it lost badly.

I think it played the opening badly, What do you say which were the
worst moves by GetClub Chess.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 23:30:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze Game of Normal Level
> first move out of the Benko book, and black goes wrong.
>
> i assume 'nomal' level is here measured in seconds - or about 2 minutes a
> move.
>
> > 6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
> > 7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
> > 8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
> > 9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
> > 10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}
>
> then another 5 consecutive pawn moves, making 9 out of 10

Yes, I found that there was something wrong with positional analysis
and it was playing pawns.unnecesarily. Now the Problem has been
corrected.

Can you tell me something about what are the good squares for White
Bishop and White Knights? And how much penalty should be given to a
King when it is moved without Chastling.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  
Date: 12 Feb 2008 07:18:03
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Analyze Game of Normal Level

"Sanny" <softtanks@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:ae4f5b21-58f7-4f5f-8e95-4b3024a6a3ad@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> first move out of the Benko book, and black goes wrong.
>>
>> i assume 'nomal' level is here measured in seconds - or about 2 minutes a
>> move.
>>
>> > 6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
>> > 7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
>> > 8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
>> > 9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
>> > 10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}
>>
>> then another 5 consecutive pawn moves, making 9 out of 10
>
> Yes, I found that there was something wrong with positional analysis
> and it was playing pawns.unnecesarily. Now the Problem has been
> corrected.

Of course it has.

> Can you tell me something about what are the good squares for White
> Bishop and White Knights?

Yes. It depends on 2 things; the position of your pawns, and also the
position of the other player's pawns.

For instance - for black, remove the Benko from your opening book, [take out
the b5 move], and stick to a Modern Benoni, see also Czech Benoni, and Old
Benoni.

The Benko is a gambit which offers to give up a pawn for strategic pressure
against the White Q side - because your program can't see any further than
the NY Times Blog page, then you too should avoid strategic ventures for a
moment's actions.

> And how much penalty should be given to a
> King when it is moved without Chastling.

It should be put into a cage with Messers Lafferty and Sloan for 20
minutes - then the boy'll learn to chastle early! and chastle right!

You might also think of penalising it for every move it stays in the centre
after move 10 - look what happened to them!

But most of all you should leave here for 6 months and talk to the people in
chess.computer and learn about their evaluation rubrics [also for free].

If you leave you King in the centre, the whole game becomes about you and
your king [like "ego", no?] And its not paranoia - All the other player's
pieces are //really// out to get you while you are stuck in the center. The
only problem with this practice is that while it suits meglomaniacs, it
almost always loses ;(

A sad story, but true.

Cordially, Phil Innes

> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 21:51:52
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A "funny" phenomenon at GetClub


Sanny wrote:

> I used to think Jester plays very good, But today in a game with
> Beginner Level, It lost a winning game.

Um, no, it did not. It's pretty obvious that "somebody"
intervened to stop the game when it became apparent
that the GetClub program was making zero headway.

That "somebody" seems to have unjustly forfeited the
Jester program, when it was doing just fine on the board
(see link below).


> View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM15934&game=Chess
>
> So what do you think about this game was it won because of Jester
> Mistake or it was won because of good moves by GetClub Beginner Level.

Neither one; the game was not completed, so
we will never know what the result would have
been had it been played out in accordance with
the rules of chess, and not halted prematurely.


> Do you find the moves much stronger than earlier or you still find
> mistakes in the game of GetClub Beginner Level.

In this game, Jester was winning but it tried to
win the Bishop on d8 and in the process, it let a
passed pawn get too far. (The Bishop could have
easily been won by pinning it with a Rook instead
of chasing it with the Knight, which was rather
busy defending a key pawn.)

In the final stage, the GetClub program seemed
unable to manage anything more than -- at best --
a perpetual check. In fact, there was still a chance
that Jester could have advanced its passed pawn
up the board and ultimately promoted it, then gone
on to *win* the game. Believe it or not, I've seen
that sort of thing done to 2100 players, so it's not
a stretch here.

The same old problem reared its ugly head once
more: the GetClub program refuses to activate its
King-- ever. A lone Queen cannot administer
checkmate except in unusual circumstances, so
by keeping its King "safe", the Beginner level in
effect throws away its material advantage in the
endgame. This is a *huge* weakness, even if the
opponent must somehow survive to an endgame
for it to manifest itself.

Here is an oversimplified solution: if the material
remaining on the board adds up to less than X
number of points, switch from a King-safety bonus
to a small penalty. Better yet, always give a
bonus in the scoring for *mobility*, including the
King, but offset this in the early part of the game.

In other words, in the endgame, a King which is
in a corner can only "attack" three squares, so
this will be penalized in comparison to a King in
the center of the board, which "attacks" eight
squares. I don't have a /simple/ solution to the
problem of when is it good versus when is it bad
to activate the King; that's a judgment call,
requiring enormous skill-- which is why I keep
winning and GC keeps losing. ; >D


-- help bot






 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 07:11:48
From: Sanny
Subject: Analyze Game of Normal Level
Normal plays very good moves still it gave away its rook for Bishop.
Why I found Blacks Pwans was getting Killed Still giving Rook for
Bishop looks bad.

31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move Black should Save its
Rook.}

Was Black loosing Two pawns That it has to give away its rook for
Bishop?

Game Played between bonsai and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonsai: (White)
normal: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16276&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(bonsai) -- (normal)

1. d2-d4{2} Ng8-f6{0}
2. c2-c4{2} c7-c5{0}
3. d4-d5{2} b7-b5{0}
4. Ng1-f3{2} g7-g6{0}
5. Nf3-d2{4} b5-b4{102}
6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}
11. Bc1-e3{24} Nf6-g4{130}
12. Be3-d2{26} Bc8-b7{100}
13. f2-f3{58} Ng4-f6{136}
14. Bd2-g5{20} Bf8-e7{190}
15. Bg5-e3{10} Nb8-d7{188}
16. Ke1-g1{22} h5-h4{116}
17. Qd1-e2{116} a5-a4{108}
18. Nb3-c1{10} Nd7-c5{124}
19. Nb1-d2{76} h4-h3{118}
20. g2-g4{30} Ra8-a5{108}
21. Be3-c5{64} d6-c5{182}
22. Bd3-c2{20} b4-b3{94}
23. Bc2-d1{24} Ra5-a6{126}
24. Nc1-d3{60} Be7-d6{158}
25. Nd2-b1{28} Nf6-d7{142}
26. Nb1-c3{12} Nd7-b6{84}
27. Qe2-f2{66} Qd8-h4{164}
28. Nc3-b5{44} Nb6-c4{130}
29. Nb5-d6{40} Nc4-d6{86}
30. Qf2-h4{44} Rh8-h4{176}
31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move It should Save its
Rook.}
32. Nc5-a6{32} Bb7-a6{134}
33. Rf1-e1{4} Ba6-b5{90}
34. Bd1-e2{12} Bb5-e8{92}
35. Kg1-f2{20} g6-g5{104}
36. Kf2-g3{18} Nd6-b5{122}
37. Ra1-a4{48} Nb5-d4{90}
38. Ra4-a7{22} f7-f6{106}
39. Be2-c4{48} Be8-b5{100}
40. Bc4-b5{16} Nd4-b5{96}
41. Ra7-b7{6} Nb5-d6{86}
42. Rb7-b3{18} Nd6-e8{112}
43. Re1-a1{22} Rh4-h7{106}
44. Rb3-b8{26} Rh7-e7{186}
45. Ra1-a8{14} Kf8-f7{110}
46. Rb8-e8{10} Re7-e8{178}
47. Ra8-e8{28} Kf7-e8{104}
48. Kg3-h3{4} Ke8-d8{108}
49. Kh3-g3{30} Kd8-c7{94}
50. h2-h4{78} Kc7-b8{130}
51. h4-h5{10} f6-f5{86}
52. h5-h6{8} f5-e4{210}
53. f3-e4{16} Kb8-b7{130}
54. h6-h7{4} Kb7-a6{126}
55. Qh7-h8{Q}{8} Ka6-b5{156}
56. Qh8-c8{24} Kb5-b4{86}
57. d5-d6{10} Kb4-b3{140}
58. d6-d7{6} Kb3-c2{82}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonsai: (White)
normal: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16276&game=Chess

31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move Black should Save its
Rook.} Was it a Forced Move or it was a mistake by Normal Level? Was
Black loosing the two pawns.

But still I find as the game proceed Black looses its pawns.

What do you think Black should have done to save its Pawns, I don't
Think giving Rook was a good move. But it was Normal Level who knows?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  
Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:11:09
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Analyze Game of Normal Level

"Sanny" <softtanks@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5f2cc6a5-9b10-4bb8-839c-5d124dae6e58@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Normal plays very good moves still it gave away its rook for Bishop.
> Why I found Blacks Pwans was getting Killed Still giving Rook for
> Bishop looks bad.
>
> 31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move Black should Save its
> Rook.}
>
> Was Black loosing Two pawns That it has to give away its rook for
> Bishop?
>
> Game Played between bonsai and normal at GetClub.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> bonsai: (White)
> normal: (Black)
> Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:
> http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16276&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (bonsai) -- (normal)
>
> 1. d2-d4{2} Ng8-f6{0}
> 2. c2-c4{2} c7-c5{0}
> 3. d4-d5{2} b7-b5{0}
> 4. Ng1-f3{2} g7-g6{0}
> 5. Nf3-d2{4} b5-b4{102}

first move out of the Benko book, and black goes wrong.

i assume 'nomal' level is here measured in seconds - or about 2 minutes a
move.

> 6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
> 7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
> 8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
> 9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
> 10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}

then another 5 consecutive pawn moves, making 9 out of 10

> 11. Bc1-e3{24} Nf6-g4{130}
> 12. Be3-d2{26} Bc8-b7{100}
> 13. f2-f3{58} Ng4-f6{136}
> 14. Bd2-g5{20} Bf8-e7{190}
> 15. Bg5-e3{10}

well, white needs to develop his team, not dance around with the B - and
besides, he can eliminate the K-side defender with BxN, or even allow the
minor exchange at move 12

> Nb8-d7{188}
> 16. Ke1-g1{22} h5-h4{116}
> 17. Qd1-e2{116} a5-a4{108}
> 18. Nb3-c1{10} Nd7-c5{124}
> 19. Nb1-d2{76} h4-h3{118}

bit hard to follow this in my head, with long-algebraic, but what is
indicated for white is a kingside attack, pawns an pieces

> 20. g2-g4{30} Ra8-a5{108}
> 21. Be3-c5{64} d6-c5{182}
> 22. Bd3-c2{20} b4-b3{94}
> 23. Bc2-d1{24} Ra5-a6{126}
> 24. Nc1-d3{60} Be7-d6{158}
> 25. Nd2-b1{28} Nf6-d7{142}
> 26. Nb1-c3

white does nor grasp the need to get after black's k side and spends 6 moves
going sideways to no advantage. 6 moves = 2 pawns!

>{12} Nd7-b6{84}
> 27. Qe2-f2{66} Qd8-h4{164}
> 28. Nc3-b5{44} Nb6-c4{130}
> 29. Nb5-d6{40} Nc4-d6{86}
> 30. Qf2-h4{44} Rh8-h4{176}
> 31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move It should Save its
> Rook.}

I don't know, I can't follow this annotation very well, and don't like move
notations that don't indicate captures. to answer the questions below, black
saves its paws by not moving them unnecessarily in the opening. its merely
long-term procedure to overextend them, and unless black gains other
benefits from pawn moves, the game was over at 10, not 58

Phil Innes

> 32. Nc5-a6{32} Bb7-a6{134}
> 33. Rf1-e1{4} Ba6-b5{90}
> 34. Bd1-e2{12} Bb5-e8{92}
> 35. Kg1-f2{20} g6-g5{104}
> 36. Kf2-g3{18} Nd6-b5{122}
> 37. Ra1-a4{48} Nb5-d4{90}
> 38. Ra4-a7{22} f7-f6{106}
> 39. Be2-c4{48} Be8-b5{100}
> 40. Bc4-b5{16} Nd4-b5{96}
> 41. Ra7-b7{6} Nb5-d6{86}
> 42. Rb7-b3{18} Nd6-e8{112}
> 43. Re1-a1{22} Rh4-h7{106}
> 44. Rb3-b8{26} Rh7-e7{186}
> 45. Ra1-a8{14} Kf8-f7{110}
> 46. Rb8-e8{10} Re7-e8{178}
> 47. Ra8-e8{28} Kf7-e8{104}
> 48. Kg3-h3{4} Ke8-d8{108}
> 49. Kh3-g3{30} Kd8-c7{94}
> 50. h2-h4{78} Kc7-b8{130}
> 51. h4-h5{10} f6-f5{86}
> 52. h5-h6{8} f5-e4{210}
> 53. f3-e4{16} Kb8-b7{130}
> 54. h6-h7{4} Kb7-a6{126}
> 55. Qh7-h8{Q}{8} Ka6-b5{156}
> 56. Qh8-c8{24} Kb5-b4{86}
> 57. d5-d6{10} Kb4-b3{140}
> 58. d6-d7{6} Kb3-c2{82}
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> bonsai: (White)
> normal: (Black)
> Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:
> http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16276&game=Chess
>
> 31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move Black should Save its
> Rook.} Was it a Forced Move or it was a mistake by Normal Level? Was
> Black loosing the two pawns.
>
> But still I find as the game proceed Black looses its pawns.
>
> What do you think Black should have done to save its Pawns, I don't
> Think giving Rook was a good move. But it was Normal Level who knows?
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




   
Date: 11 Feb 2008 22:06:07
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Analyze Game of Normal Level
Chess One wrote:
>>1. d2-d4{2} Ng8-f6{0}
>>2. c2-c4{2} c7-c5{0}
>>3. d4-d5{2} b7-b5{0}
>>4. Ng1-f3{2} g7-g6{0}
>>5. Nf3-d2{4} b5-b4{102}
>
>
> first move out of the Benko book, and black goes wrong.

I fully agree, b5-b4 is just wrong. But in fact already 4...g6 is
suboptimal.

>>6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
>>7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
>>8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
>>9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
>>10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}

I thought the moves e5 and h5 looked quite weird.

>>11. Bc1-e3{24} Nf6-g4{130}
>>12. Be3-d2{26} Bc8-b7{100}
>>13. f2-f3{58} Ng4-f6{136}
>>14. Bd2-g5{20} Bf8-e7{190}
>>15. Bg5-e3{10}
>>Nb8-d7{188}
>>16. Ke1-g1{22} h5-h4{116}
>>17. Qd1-e2{116} a5-a4{108}
>>18. Nb3-c1{10} Nd7-c5{124}
>>19. Nb1-d2{76} h4-h3{118}
>
>
> bit hard to follow this in my head, with long-algebraic, but what is
> indicated for white is a kingside attack, pawns an pieces

Well, black is not that badly placed, because white's pieces are a bit
tangled up. Black needs to find something to do though, while white
clearly can try to untangle as in the game and is then starting to do
well. I didn't think white was quite ready to open up the game due to
the messy position of the white pieces. Of course one can also usually
rely on this program to dig its own grave if one lets it move about for
long enough in closed positions.

>>20. g2-g4{30} Ra8-a5{108}
>>21. Be3-c5{64} d6-c5{182}
>>22. Bd3-c2{20} b4-b3{94}
>>23. Bc2-d1{24} Ra5-a6{126}
>>24. Nc1-d3{60} Be7-d6{158}
>>25. Nd2-b1{28} Nf6-d7{142}
>>26. Nb1-c3
>
>
> white does nor grasp the need to get after black's k side and spends 6 moves
> going sideways to no advantage. 6 moves = 2 pawns!

Actually, when I was playing the moves I thought that it's here that I
started to have a clear advantage on the queenside. In contrast the next
moves by black, namely knight to b6 and then takes c4 and in particular
that queen sortie are completely misguided.

>>{12} Nd7-b6{84}
>>27. Qe2-f2{66} Qd8-h4{164}
>>28. Nc3-b5{44} Nb6-c4{130}
>>29. Nb5-d6{40} Nc4-d6{86}
>>30. Qf2-h4{44} Rh8-h4{176}

There's no point even discussing any further, this is a point where
black is already completely lost, whether it crazily gives up the
exchange in a moment or not.

>>31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move It should Save its
>>Rook.}

Of course this move is completely weird and idiotic, but the game is
lost already.


    
Date: 11 Feb 2008 18:01:24
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Analyze Game of Normal Level

"Bjoern" <bjoern@swissonline.ch > wrote in message
news:6e15a$47b0b8c5$d9a2764b$8983@news.hispeed.ch...
> Chess One wrote:
> >>1. d2-d4{2} Ng8-f6{0}
> >>2. c2-c4{2} c7-c5{0}
> >>3. d4-d5{2} b7-b5{0}
> >>4. Ng1-f3{2} g7-g6{0}
> >>5. Nf3-d2{4} b5-b4{102}
> >
> >
> > first move out of the Benko book, and black goes wrong.
>
> I fully agree, b5-b4 is just wrong. But in fact already 4...g6 is
> suboptimal.

yes white should attack this structure with something like Bg5 and h4 for
h5 - with fixed central pawns locked white can play as if a piece ahead.

>>>6. a2-a3{36} a7-a5{104}
>>>7. a3-b4{72} c5-b4{100}
>>>8. e2-e4{18} e7-e5{120}
>>>9. Bf1-d3{26} d7-d6{92}
>>>10. Nd2-b3{20} h7-h5{150}
>
> I thought the moves e5 and h5 looked quite weird.
>
>>>11. Bc1-e3{24} Nf6-g4{130}
>>>12. Be3-d2{26} Bc8-b7{100}
>>>13. f2-f3{58} Ng4-f6{136}
>>>14. Bd2-g5{20} Bf8-e7{190}
>>>15. Bg5-e3{10}
>>>Nb8-d7{188}
>>>16. Ke1-g1{22} h5-h4{116}
>>>17. Qd1-e2{116} a5-a4{108}
>>>18. Nb3-c1{10} Nd7-c5{124}
>>>19. Nb1-d2{76} h4-h3{118}
>>
>>
>> bit hard to follow this in my head, with long-algebraic, but what is
>> indicated for white is a kingside attack, pawns an pieces
>
> Well, black is not that badly placed, because white's pieces are a bit
> tangled up. Black needs to find something to do though, while white
> clearly can try to untangle as in the game and is then starting to do
> well. I didn't think white was quite ready to open up the game due to the
> messy position of the white pieces. Of course one can also usually rely on
> this program to dig its own grave if one lets it move about for long
> enough in closed positions.

ay

>>>20. g2-g4{30} Ra8-a5{108}
>>>21. Be3-c5{64} d6-c5{182}
>>>22. Bd3-c2{20} b4-b3{94}
>>>23. Bc2-d1{24} Ra5-a6{126}
>>>24. Nc1-d3{60} Be7-d6{158}
>>>25. Nd2-b1{28} Nf6-d7{142}
>>>26. Nb1-c3
>>
>>
>> white does nor grasp the need to get after black's k side and spends 6
>> moves going sideways to no advantage. 6 moves = 2 pawns!
>
> Actually, when I was playing the moves I thought that it's here that I
> started to have a clear advantage on the queenside. In contrast the next
> moves by black, namely knight to b6 and then takes c4 and in particular
> that queen sortie are completely misguided.

it the chess engine is just point-counting, the engine has no positional
sense at all.

>>>{12} Nd7-b6{84}
>>>27. Qe2-f2{66} Qd8-h4{164}
>>>28. Nc3-b5{44} Nb6-c4{130}
>>>29. Nb5-d6{40} Nc4-d6{86}
>>>30. Qf2-h4{44} Rh8-h4{176}
>
> There's no point even discussing any further, this is a point where black
> is already completely lost, whether it crazily gives up the exchange in a
> moment or not.

yes

phil

>>>31. Nd3-c5{8} Ke8-f8{114} {Is This Wrong Move It should Save its
>>>Rook.}
>
> Of course this move is completely weird and idiotic, but the game is lost
> already.




 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: A funny game between GetClub & Jester.


 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: A funny game between GetClub & Jester.


 
Date: 09 Feb 2008 06:14:27
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A funny game between GetClub & Jester.
Here is another game., Was there any way for the Beginner Level to
survive? Its pawn gets killed and it cvould do nothing.

Game Played between Jester and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16069&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{2} c7-c6{0}
2. d2-d4{4} d7-d5{0}
3. e4-e5{4} Bc8-f5{0}
4. Nb1-c3{6} e7-e6{0}
5. g2-g4{6} Bf5-e4{6}
6. Nc3-e4{10} d5-e4{12}
7. c2-c3{10} Nb8-d7{6}
8. Bf1-g2{10} f7-f6{18}
9. Qd1-b3{10} f6-e5{6}
10. Qb3-b7{10} Qd8-c8{10}
11. Qb7-c8{10} Ra8-c8{12}
12. Ng1-e2{8} e5-d4{10}
13. Ne2-d4{8} Nd7-c5{6}
14. Ke1-g1{10} a7-a5{10}
15. h2-h3{10} e6-e5{8}
16. Nd4-b3{12} Ng8-f6{8}
17. Nb3-a5{10} Bf8-e7{10}
18. Na5-c4{10} Ke8-g8{22}
19. Bc1-g5{12} h7-h6{8}
20. Bg5-h4{10} g7-g5{22}
21. Bh4-g3{10} Nf6-d5{12}
22. Bg3-e5{10} Rf8-f7{22}
23. b2-b4{10} Nc5-a4{12}
24. Ra1-c1{12} Nd5-f4{10}
25. Be5-f4{10} Rf7-f4{12}
26. Nc4-d2{10} Na4-b6{6}
27. Nd2-e4{10} Nb6-d5{14}
28. a2-a4{118} Kg8-h8{22}
29. Ne4-g3{12} Rf4-f6{6}
30. Ng3-f5{16} Be7-d6{10}
31. Nf5-d6{10} Rf6-d6{16}
32. Rf1-d1{12} Rc8-d8{6}
33. a4-a5{10} Nd5-f4{12}
34. Rd1-d6{10} Rd8-d6{8}
35. Kg1-h2{10} Rd6-f6{6}
36. a5-a6{10} Kh8-h7{22}
37. Rc1-e1{10} Nf4-d5{22}
38. a6-a7{16} Rf6-f8{10}
39. b4-b5{10} Kh7-g7{6}
40. b5-c6{10} Nd5-f4{12}
41. Re1-b1{10} Kg7-g8{12}
42. Rb1-b8{10} Kg8-g7{16}
43. Rb8-f8{10} h6-h5{22}
44. Rf8-d8{10} Nf4-g2{22}
45. Kh2-g2{8} Kg7-h6{22}
46. Qa7-a8{Q}{10} Kh6-g6{8}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM16069&game=Chess

Was there a way to save those pawns which got killed one after the
another?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html