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Date: 17 Dec 2007 16:31:59
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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Why would he do either one when you know your going to lose ? I'd
rather go down fighting , how about you ?
I kinda feel Shirov gave up ....
Gata would have had to checkmate me..
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Date: 18 Dec 2007 14:18:51
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 17, 7:31 pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> Why would he do either one when you know your going to lose ? I'd
> rather go down fighting , how about you ?
That's what Larsen did against Fischer.
Thirty five years later, he is known as someone who lost 6-0, instead
of someone who fought to the end. He'd have been much better off
giving up on the attempt to win the match after game three, and
scoring a few draws. Which is what he did vs Spassky the cycle
before. Much better for the ego and future
career.
William Hyde
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Date: 19 Dec 2007 10:04:16
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 19, 12:42 am, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> I am just talking about the last game , in Larsons case he lost 6-zip
You make my point for me.
Larsen did not have to go down six-zero. He had a draw in the last
game, but the draw would concede the match, so he took your advice and
played for the win, and lost.
Bad advice, as the 6-0 result is now almost the only thing people cite
about Larsen, and it had a bad effect on his career for the next few
years.
> .....This was over by the last game...
Matches frequently are.
William Hyde
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Date: 19 Dec 2007 13:42:29
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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Lasron and Fischer ..
The last game did not matter in that match because Fischer already
won ....
In the Gata vs Shirov match , Shirov needed a win to tie the match ,
a draw or lose , loses the match .
I belive Larson was trying to win from game 3 on ....As for Larsons
problems after that match he should have told people he played to win
not draw ....His own mind mite have brought him down...
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Date: 22 Dec 2007 00:38:31
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 21, 1:11 pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Does anybody know what GM Larsen himself has
> > said or written about this?
> He wrote an article called something like "First Flight after a Crash"
> about a tournament he won the next year. The idea was that all was
> well. It didn't quite work out that way, though his results never got
> really bad.
Well, one could go to chessmetrics.com and see
almost exactly what happened results-wise, on a
graph... but not /why/ it happened.
> > Nobody I know has "forgotten" it.
>
> Glad to hear that.
>
>> And even the one claiming that seems to remember... hmmm.
> Not forgotten by everybody, but ask ten chess players at a weekend
> swiss about Larsen, and (for those who know who he is at all) you
> will hear far more about the Fischer loss than about, say, winning six
> international events in a row.
Perhaps. But that is merely a reflection of what has
been the focus of chess articles in their mailbox
afterward; as I said before, the press seems fixated
on Bobby Fischer, so /everything/ is seen in relation
to him. The same process applies right here in rgc;
countless threads have been created which focus on
BF and all things as they relate specifically to /him/.
But no writer of, say, a biography of BL is going to
fill the book as if the whole world centered around BF;
that would be silly. There will be plentiful anecdotes,
but it always comes to a point where the obsessed
author (who else?) pens a statement which can only
be interpreted as implying that at some point in
time, the subject was even better than everybody
else (including you know who).
After years of reading this obsessive claptrap about
Bobby Fischer, it should come as no surprise if that
is what first pops out of mouthes years later. But it
doesn't mean that people have forgotten everything
else.
-- help bot
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Date: 22 Dec 2007 00:24:03
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 21, 10:07 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> help bot <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > GM Nimzovich.
>
> Nimzowitsch wasn't actually a grandmaster, was he?
No. His hideous style made him nothing more than a... .
Wait. What I meant to say is that a lot of these guys
pre-date FIDE, so the use of that term is honorary,
indicating a level of status, not an actual title. The same
idea applies to phrases like "2600+ players"; obviously,
nobody had any rating at all up until more recently; but
we can, if we so desire, go back in time and "rate" their
results.
One game I particularly like is the one where AN had
White against Dr. GM World Champion Alekhine. In
that game, "Mr." Nimzovich pulled off a stunning move
which would have turned the tables on strong players,
even today, but AA looked deeper and saw the tiny
flaw it entailed, exploited it precisely and won.
-- help bot
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Date: 21 Dec 2007 10:11:46
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 20, 5:35 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 20, 4:29 pm, William Hyde <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > and had some other strange results.
>
> Does anybody know what GM Larsen himself has
> said or written about this?
He wrote an article called something like "First Flight after a Crash"
about a tournament he won the next year. The idea was that all was
well. It didn't quite work out that way, though his results never got
really bad.
In one tournament, IIRC he finished about sixth, pretty low for him.
The unusual part was that he lost to everyone above him, and rarely
used more than an hour and a half on the game (this was in the days of
2.5 hours in 40 moves).
>
> I suspect that it is not all his own psychology, but
> also the fact that after the mystique is blown away
> (by losing 0-6, for instance), one's opponents tend
> to think differently.
Good point.
> Nobody I know has "forgotten" it.
Glad to hear that.
And even the
> one claiming that seems to remember... hmmm.
Not forgotten by everybody, but ask ten chess players at a weekend
swiss about Larsen, and (for those who know who he is at all) you
will hear far more about the Fischer loss than about, say, winning six
international events in a
row.
William Hyde
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Date: 21 Dec 2007 10:04:05
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 21, 10:07 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> help bot <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > GM Nimzovich.
>
> Nimzowitsch wasn't actually a grandmaster, was he?
True, he died before the title was formally bestowed.
He called himself (or was called, I forget which) "The Crown
Prince of Chess" on the grounds that he was for a while the third best
active player. Later that title seems to have been
bestowed on Keres.
William Hyde
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 14:35:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 20, 4:29 pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> > what happened to Larson after losing to Fischer 6-0 ? Did it devastate
> > him so bad he could not go on with his career ?
>
> Nothing that serious. But it seemed to take him some time to fully
> recover. He missed qualifying for the next candidates cycle (in fact
> he wasn't even close) something that had not happened to him for a
> while (he qualified for the next one, though, winning the interzonal)
> and had some other strange results.
Does anybody know what GM Larsen himself has
said or written about this?
I suspect that it is not all his own psychology, but
also the fact that after the mystique is blown away
(by losing 0-6, for instance), one's opponents tend
to think differently.
At a much lower level, I have seen people win a
full piece, right in the late opening, then take a draw
because they are scared sh*tless of a player's
reputation; this makes no sense in that if he truly
were "invincible", he wouldn't have "let you" win
that piece, would he now? : >D
> It is partly the Fischer result and the years following, I think,
> that are the reason his strong tournament record tends to be
> forgotten.
Nobody I know has "forgotten" it. And even the
one claiming that seems to remember... hmmm.
-- help bot
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 14:19:09
From: zdrakec
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 20, 3:29 pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 8:38 pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
>
> > I think Larson after going down 3-zip did the right thing trying to win
> > the last 3 games , i would have done the same..
>
> I know. But would you have drawn the last game?
>
> > what happened to Larson after losing to Fischer 6-0 ? Did it devastate
> > him so bad he could not go on with his career ?
>
> Nothing that serious. But it seemed to take him some time to fully
> recover. He missed qualifying for the next candidates cycle (in fact
> he wasn't even close) something that had not happened to him for a
> while (he qualified for the next one, though, winning the interzonal)
> and had some
> other strange results.
>
> Today of course it would hurt more. The rating loss would cost
> invitations.
>
> After his loss to Spassky, on the other hand, he just went on doing
> well. It had little or no negative effect.
>
> It is partly the Fischer result and the years following, I think,
> that are the reason his strong tournament record tends to be
> forgotten. He really was an amazing player and, like Fischer, he did
> it by himself. No state support.
>
> William Hyde
Oh, definitely, Larsen was just fabulous. It is a shame that one
sporting setback should be remembered more than his many triumphs and
brilliancies.
Regards,
zdrakec
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 13:32:13
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 20, 12:16 am, help bot
> The name Bent Larsen comes up most
> often in relation to his pet openings these
> days. His name is appended to that of
> GM Nimzovich.
Larsen once commented that both he and Petrosian were students of
Nimzowitsch. When it was pointed out that Petrosian's style was very
different from his, he commented that Nimzo's genius was more diverse
than people remembered.
William Hyde
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 13:29:26
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 19, 8:38 pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> I think Larson after going down 3-zip did the right thing trying to win
> the last 3 games , i would have done the same..
I know. But would you have drawn the last game?
> what happened to Larson after losing to Fischer 6-0 ? Did it devastate
> him so bad he could not go on with his career ?
Nothing that serious. But it seemed to take him some time to fully
recover. He missed qualifying for the next candidates cycle (in fact
he wasn't even close) something that had not happened to him for a
while (he qualified for the next one, though, winning the interzonal)
and had some
other strange results.
Today of course it would hurt more. The rating loss would cost
invitations.
After his loss to Spassky, on the other hand, he just went on doing
well. It had little or no negative effect.
It is partly the Fischer result and the years following, I think,
that are the reason his strong tournament record tends to be
forgotten. He really was an amazing player and, like Fischer, he did
it by himself. No state support.
William Hyde
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 20:31:38
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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Thanks for that Larson info too..
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 20:30:41
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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In the Larson - Fischer match on the last game when he was down 5-zip ,
i mite have tried to get a draw ...???? The last game did not matter
.That is my point on this match..
Now the Gata - Shirov match the last game if Shirov draws he loses ,
and if he loses , he loses , so the best he can do is tie the game with
a win and send it to over time . to use a football term..
So if i am down by one point going into the last game there is no way i
accept a draw and i would never offer a draw ...Understand what i mean ?
If Gata had me in perpetual check then id have to accept a draw if there
was no way i could block it ..Is that what happened in this game ? i
never played it out ....
If it was you and you needed a win to tie the match in the last game
would you offer a draw and lose .....I feel like i would have quit if i
do anything like that....
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Date: 19 Dec 2007 21:16:12
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 19, 8:38 pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> him so bad he could not go on with his career ?
That was nonsense.
People remember that GM Larsen was first
board -- ahead of Bobby Fischer -- in the team
tourney where BF won a car. They still
remember that this was because up until, say
1970, BL had an even better record than BF
in terms of major tournament victories. And
people remember BL for his funky openings,
not just his exceptional results.
The reason the 0-6 loss to GM Fischer
comes up so often is that Fischer-fanatics
love to list it as "proof" of his supposed vast
superiority over all rivals. (The same thing
can be done with GM Tal's 4-0 "spanking"
of BF, for instance.) As you know, the
subject of BF is one which completely
dominates the writings of certain people,
who can't let go of the (now distant) past.
The name Bent Larsen comes up most
often in relation to his pet openings these
days. His name is appended to that of
GM Nimzovich.
-- help bot
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Date: 21 Dec 2007 15:07:05
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> GM Nimzovich.
Nimzowitsch wasn't actually a grandmaster, was he?
Dave.
--
David Richerby Cheese Book (TM): it's like a romantic
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ novel that's made of cheese!
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Date: 19 Dec 2007 17:38:06
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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I think Larson after going down 3-zip did the right thing trying to win
the last 3 games , i would have done the same..
what happened to Larson after losing to Fischer 6-0 ? Did it devastate
him so bad he could not go on with his career ?
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Date: 18 Dec 2007 21:42:30
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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I am just talking about the last game , in Larsons case he lost 6-zip
.....This was over by the last game...
In the Gata -Shirov game a draw in the last game means you lose then
id rather lose..
If Gata was doing the perpetual check then you take the draw because
there was probably no way to stop the check....
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Date: 17 Dec 2007 19:10:56
From: EJAY
Subject: Re: Did Shirov accept a draw or offer the draw to Gata ?
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On Dec 17, 7:31=EF=BF=BDpm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> =EF=BF=BD Why would he do either one when you know your going to lose ? =
=EF=BF=BDI'd
> rather go down fighting , how about you ?
>
> I kinda feel Shirov gave up ....
>
> Gata would have had to checkmate me..
I think in the final position if Shirov avoids the perpetual checks he
would get mated..
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