Main
Date: 24 Jan 2008 23:31:30
From: Offramp
Subject: Fischer the recusant
Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.




 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 10:00:05
From:
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Feb 11, 12:14=A0pm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> For god's sake do me a favour the lot of you. I did not expect the
> spanish inquisition.

*_Nobody_* expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgldlyTjXk9A


 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 09:14:26
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
For god's sake do me a favour the lot of you. I did not expect the
spanish inquisition.


 
Date: 11 Feb 2008 00:35:46
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Feb 8, 7:18 am, David Richerby <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk >
wrote:
> Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Offramp", you seem to have a wrong idea about
> > the meaning of word "recusant".
>
> From the OED:
>
> 2. One who refuses to submit to some authority, comply with some
> regulation or request, etc.
>
> Sounds like Fischer, to me.
>
> Dave.

But that's not what "offramp" has meant (just the opposite).

Wlod


  
Date: 11 Feb 2008 12:43:57
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) <sennajawa@gmail.com > wrote:
> David Richerby <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> From the OED:
>>
>> 2. One who refuses to submit to some authority, comply with some
>> regulation or request, etc.
>>
>> Sounds like Fischer, to me.
>
> But that's not what "offramp" has meant (just the opposite).

Yes, you're right.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Perforated Bulb (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ light bulb but it's full of holes!


 
Date: 04 Feb 2008 13:21:27
From:
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Feb 4, 5:38=A0am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<sennaj...@gmail.com > wrote:
> "Offramp", you seem to have a wrong idea about
> the meaning of word "recusant".
>
> =A0 =A0 Wlod

Wlod, you may be right. My Webster gives these definitions:

1. Someone who refuses to conform.
2. A person, esp. a Roman Catholic, who refused to attend Church of
England services when attendance was compulsory.

Fischer fit #1 in many ways, but not in the special context Offramp
addressed. Anyone who fit #2 is long dead.
Offramp apparently intended it to mean that Fischer decided to
embrace or return to the Catholic Church as his death approached, but
that is not the dictionary meaning.


 
Date: 04 Feb 2008 02:38:53
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
"Offramp", you seem to have a wrong idea about
the meaning of word "recusant".

Wlod


  
Date: 08 Feb 2008 15:18:19
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) <sennajawa@gmail.com > wrote:
> "Offramp", you seem to have a wrong idea about
> the meaning of word "recusant".

From the OED:

2. One who refuses to submit to some authority, comply with some
regulation or request, etc.

Sounds like Fischer, to me.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Salted Microsoft Painting (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a Renaissance masterpiece that's
really hard to use but it's covered
in salt!


 
Date: 02 Feb 2008 00:09:39
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 24, 11:31 pm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.

Yeah, tricky catholics, aren't they?

Are they going to claim the Fischer's soul
now (they can have it) or his estate too?

Wlod





 
Date: 27 Jan 2008 23:27:42
From:
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant


Taylor Kingston wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:04=EF=BF=BDpm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
> >
> > > =EF=BF=BD Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim th=
at all
> > > Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
> > > across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
> > > Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
> > > English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome=

> > > in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) =EF=BF=BDand James II (1685-1688=
). And
> > > the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
> > > and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
> > > =EF=BF=BD If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since He=
nry VIII
> > > broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
> > > one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
> > > "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
> > > and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?


Perhaps he's a Jacobite. There are still a few of them around -- see
http://www.jacobite.ca/kings/. They have elaborate genealogical tables
showing the "true" Kings and Queens of England since that
unpleasantness in 1688. Their cause became somewhat unpopular in the
early 20th century, when the Stuart legitimist claimant was Prince
Rupprecht of Bavaria, one of the Kaiser's best generals.


  
Date: 28 Jan 2008 09:21:54
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant

<jkh001@aim.com > wrote in message
news:0cd20985-a03e-4db8-bf63-f9936d258b06@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


Perhaps he's a Jacobite.

**More likely a Jacobin [when Jacobites go bad...] as in France. My family's
clan has been solid cut-your-Saxon-throat highland Jacobites for ever. We
have a saying, 'a Jacobite's bite is worse than his bark.' [not to be
confused with Jesuit's bark, which is the other way round [Irish joke, circa
1785]

**It has been interesting to read what people have written recently on
varieties of Protestantism, in the sense that it replaced Catholicism
entire - but from Henry VIII through entire Elizabethan era, there was both
public and private religious practices throughout England, and even, to
anticipate the first sea-lord, a blind eye cast on much Protestantism with
strong Catholic ceremonial and iconic features.

**Indeed, the very popularity of of the Elizabethan stage, was a form of
displaced ceremonal activity from church to theatre - which caused it to be,
now and again, publicly banned - but by the evidence of its popularity, was
something the people did not care to go without.

**In terms of Fischer, whatever one's religious orientation, I think people
notice more the practice than the proclamation, and decide is who what on
that basis.

Cordially, Phil Innes
---
There are still a few of them around -- see
http://www.jacobite.ca/kings/. They have elaborate genealogical tables
showing the "true" Kings and Queens of England since that
unpleasantness in 1688. Their cause became somewhat unpopular in the
early 20th century, when the Stuart legitimist claimant was Prince
Rupprecht of Bavaria, one of the Kaiser's best generals.




 
Date: 27 Jan 2008 12:33:00
From: sigvaldi
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 2:28=A0pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:20=A0am, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 1:10=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 10:57 pm, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 7:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fische=
r
> > > > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> > > > Fischer was not buried in a Catholic cemetery.
>
> > > Can you prove that??!!
>
> > =A0 This article:
>
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7244323,00.html
>
> > says that Fischer was buried in a churchyard, but not the denomination
> > of the church:
>
> > *********
> > Tuesday January 22, 2008 12:46 AM
>
> > REYKJAVIK, Iceland (AP) - Reclusive chess genius Bobby Fischer was
> > buried Monday in a private ceremony at a churchyard in southern
> > Iceland, a television station reported.
>
> > Fischer, who died of kidney failure on Thursday at the age of 64, was
> > interred at Laugardaelir church outside the town of Selfoss, Iceland's
> > Channel 2 reported, citing the parish priest.
>
> > The Rev. Kristinn Agust Fridfinnsson told the TV station the ceremony
> > was arranged so hastily he did not arrive until after the ceremony was
> > over.
>
> > The funeral was attended by only a handful of people, including
> > Fischer's longtime companion, Miyoko Watai, and friend and spokesman
> > Gardar Sverrisson, the TV station reported.
>
> > ***********
>
> > =A0 My web searches for "Laugardaelir church" just turned up hits on the=

> > Fischer story.
>
> =A0 A little further searching turned up this AP account, which does say
> it was a Catholic ceremony.
>
> Chess champion Bobby Fischer buried in Iceland
> Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:13pm
> By Kristin Arna Bragadottir
>
> REYKJAVIK (Reuters) - Chess legend Bobby Fischer, who died in Iceland
> last week aged 64, was buried on Monday in a private ceremony near the
> city that hosted his famous victory over the Soviet Union's Boris
> Spassky 35 years ago.
>
> Fischer's spokesman, Gardar Sverrisson, said the American-born world
> chess champion was buried on Monday morning at a quiet ceremony
> attended by a few friends and his companion, Japanese chess player
> Miyoko Watai.
>
> The Catholic burial was held on a cold, bright day at a small country
> church near the southern Icelandic town of Selfoss, about 60
> kilometers (37 miles) southeast of Reykjavik.

The burial was Catholic as it was carried out by a Catholic priest but
the church and cemetery are Lutheran.

> One of the attendees, who declined to be identified, said Fischer had
> requested that only a handful of people be at his funeral.
>
> The quiet end of Fischer's life contrasted with the fiery nature of
> his life, both at and away from the chess board.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 27 Jan 2008 09:42:04
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 27, 12:13=A0pm, "Andrew B." <bull...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> According to wikipedia: "On the last evening of his life he was
> received into the Roman Catholic Church, though the extent to which he
> was fully conscious or committed, and with whom the idea originated,
> is unclear." I also have a history book which suggests that he
> converted on his deathbed.

Sounds all rather hazy and unverifiable. In any event, whether a
given king did or did not convert on his deathbed is not at all
sufficient to establish that they _all_ did, which was Mr. O'Brien's
original claim. That claim requires only one exception to be refuted.
There are many exceptions.

> Re Henry VIII - didn't he regard himself as an "English Catholic"?

As Mr. Walker pointed out earlier, it is doubtful that the Pope
agreed.

> I agree that the claim that all English monarchs were Catholic is
> absurd.

Quite. Mr. O'Brien later qualified this to mean only "non-Hanoverian
claimants," but even this is not true. And to exclude the Hanoverians
(or as they are now called, the Windsors) means tossing out every
English monarch from 1714 on.


  
Date: 27 Jan 2008 14:00:00
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com > wrote in message
news:ac6e2f00-867a-416b-ba1e-cd616451a463@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 27, 12:13 pm, "Andrew B." <bull...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> According to wikipedia: "On the last evening of his life he was
> received into the Roman Catholic Church, though the extent to which he
> was fully conscious or committed, and with whom the idea originated,
> is unclear." I also have a history book which suggests that he
> converted on his deathbed.

Sounds all rather hazy and unverifiable.

**Its your basic Brideshead conversion, isn't it. The celebrant may
administer to someone entirely gaa-gaa, and 'interpret the signs'. Waugh's
point [himself a Catholic] was that living within the religion was more the
point that merely avering it - indeed, in his book he illustrates the
'conversion' of Rex, which is entirely hilarious. Phil Innes

In any event, whether a
given king did or did not convert on his deathbed is not at all
sufficient to establish that they _all_ did, which was Mr. O'Brien's
original claim. That claim requires only one exception to be refuted.
There are many exceptions.

> Re Henry VIII - didn't he regard himself as an "English Catholic"?

As Mr. Walker pointed out earlier, it is doubtful that the Pope
agreed.

> I agree that the claim that all English monarchs were Catholic is
> absurd.

Quite. Mr. O'Brien later qualified this to mean only "non-Hanoverian
claimants," but even this is not true. And to exclude the Hanoverians
(or as they are now called, the Windsors) means tossing out every
English monarch from 1714 on.




 
Date: 27 Jan 2008 09:13:41
From: Andrew B.
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On 27 Jan, 15:31, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:04=A0pm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Charles II was a catholic...
>
> =A0 To cite Fry again: "The next two Stuart kings, Charles I and Charles
> II, though outwardly Protestant, tolerated Catholics." To tolerate
> Catholics is not to be a Catholic.
> =A0 Another passage from Fry about Charles II: "The Popish Plot: In 1678
> an Anglican parson, Titus Oates, disclosed a Catholic plot to murder
> Charles and restore Catholicism to England. Although the plot was
> fabricated, the resulting furore led Parliament to attempt to exclude
> Charle's Catholic brother James from the throne." Again, none of this
> sounds like evidence that Charles II was a Catholic, either openly or
> secretly.

According to wikipedia: "On the last evening of his life he was
received into the Roman Catholic Church, though the extent to which he
was fully conscious or committed, and with whom the idea originated,
is unclear." I also have a history book which suggests that he
converted on his deathbed.

Re Henry VIII - didn't he regard himself as an "English Catholic"?

I agree that the claim that all English monarchs were Catholic is
absurd.


 
Date: 27 Jan 2008 07:31:05
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 9:04=A0pm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> > =A0 Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
> > Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
> > across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
> > Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
> > English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
> > in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) =A0and James II (1685-1688). And
> > the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
> > and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
> > =A0 If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII=

> > broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
> > one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
> > "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
> > and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?
>
> Henry VIII died still a catholic;

This is a bit like saying Bobby Fischer died still a Jew.

> Charles II was a catholic...

To cite Fry again: "The next two Stuart kings, Charles I and Charles
II, though outwardly Protestant, tolerated Catholics." To tolerate
Catholics is not to be a Catholic.
Another passage from Fry about Charles II: "The Popish Plot: In 1678
an Anglican parson, Titus Oates, disclosed a Catholic plot to murder
Charles and restore Catholicism to England. Although the plot was
fabricated, the resulting furore led Parliament to attempt to exclude
Charle's Catholic brother James from the throne." Again, none of this
sounds like evidence that Charles II was a Catholic, either openly or
secretly.

> We
> can't be sure what various Kings have done on their deathbeds since
> then.

Then you certainly can't be the least bit sure about your very sure-
sounding claim that "ALL Kings of England" have been Catholics.
Neither can we be sure that all kings of England haven't actually been
very well-disguised aliens from another planet, but I wouldn't bet on
it.

> Certainly all non-Hanoverian claimants are catholic.

I must respectfully disagree. Assuming that by "Hanoverian" you mean
also the House of Windsor, we have among the non-Catholic non-
Hanoverian English monarchs the Tudors Henry VIII, Edward VI,
Elizabeth I, and the Stuarts James I, Charles I, Charles II, William
of Orange, y II and Anne.


  
Date: 27 Jan 2008 11:25:09
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com > wrote in message
news:6fb8ae56-0934-4f06-98eb-99f2bbd4b46b@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

switching the subject a moment
dr frank brady was just on npr [east coast] talking well about fischer for
20 minutes or so - 10:30 am

maybe if you are midwest or east coast you can still hear it [Sunday]

phil innes




 
Date: 26 Jan 2008 18:57:31
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 9:04 pm, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> > Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
> > Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
> > across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
> > Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
> > English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
> > in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) and James II (1685-1688). And
> > the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
> > and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
> > If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII
> > broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
> > one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
> > "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
> > and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?
>
> Henry VIII died still a catholic; Charles II was a catholic... We
> can't be sure what various Kings have done on their deathbeds since
> then.

That makes as much sense as Larry Parr's 'what proof do we have that
Capa DIDN'T say it' drivel.



 
Date: 26 Jan 2008 18:04:49
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
> Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
> across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
> Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
> English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
> in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) and James II (1685-1688). And
> the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
> and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
> If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII
> broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
> one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
> "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
> and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?

Henry VIII died still a catholic; Charles II was a catholic... We
can't be sure what various Kings have done on their deathbeds since
then. Certainly all non-Hanoverian claimants are catholic.


  
Date: 02 Feb 2008 03:59:10
From: Duncan Rice
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
In regardes to the Catholic/Protestant English monarchy. You may also want
to look up the Exclusion Crisis and The Glorious Revolution.

"Offramp" <alaneobrien@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:07c4628f-56a5-4469-aa7f-1c2bb74325bd@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
>> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
>> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
>> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>>
>> Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
>> Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
>> across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
>> Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
>> English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
>> in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) and James II (1685-1688). And
>> the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
>> and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
>> If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII
>> broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
>> one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
>> "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
>> and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?
>
> Henry VIII died still a catholic; Charles II was a catholic... We
> can't be sure what various Kings have done on their deathbeds since
> then. Certainly all non-Hanoverian claimants are catholic.




  
Date: 26 Jan 2008 18:14:31
From: J.D. Walker
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
Offramp wrote:
> On Jan 26, 9:21 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
>>> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
>>> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
>>> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>> Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
>> Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
>> across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
>> Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
>> English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
>> in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) and James II (1685-1688). And
>> the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
>> and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
>> If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII
>> broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
>> one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
>> "all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
>> and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?
>
> Henry VIII died still a catholic; Charles II was a catholic... We
> can't be sure what various Kings have done on their deathbeds since
> then. Certainly all non-Hanoverian claimants are catholic.

" The Pope and the Catholic church in Rome were horrified when they
heard the news that Henry had destroyed St. Thomas Becket's Shrine. On
17 December 1538, the Pope announced to the Christian world that Henry
VIII had been excommunicated from the Catholic church."
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUDhenry8.htm)

It is pretty hard to call yourself a Catholic after you have been
excommunicated...
--

Cordially,
Rev. J.D. Walker, MsD, U.C.


 
Date: 26 Jan 2008 13:21:51
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 2:31=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.

Alan, I am still puzzled by what appears to be your claim that all
Kings of England died professing the Catholic faith. I just happened
across a book today, "Kings and Queens of England and Scotland" by
Platagenet Somerset Fry (1990). As far as I can make out, the only
English monarchs to be open Catholics after Henry VIII broke with Rome
in 1534 were y I (ruled 1553-1558) and James II (1685-1688). And
the book clearly states that "The 1701 Act of Settlement ensured once
and for all that Britain would never be ruled by a Catholic monarch."
If I counted correctly, England has had 20 monarchs since Henry VIII
broke with Rome, 15 kings and 5 queens. Of these, only one queen and
one king were Catholic. This does not seem to jibe with a claim that
"all kings of England" found the same "one true religion in the end,"
and that this was the same one as Fischer. Have I misunderstood?


 
Date: 26 Jan 2008 06:28:02
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 9:20=A0am, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 1:10=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 25, 10:57 pm, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 7:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> > > Fischer was not buried in a Catholic cemetery.
>
> > Can you prove that??!!
>
> =A0 This article:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7244323,00.html
>
> says that Fischer was buried in a churchyard, but not the denomination
> of the church:
>
> *********
> Tuesday January 22, 2008 12:46 AM
>
> REYKJAVIK, Iceland (AP) - Reclusive chess genius Bobby Fischer was
> buried Monday in a private ceremony at a churchyard in southern
> Iceland, a television station reported.
>
> Fischer, who died of kidney failure on Thursday at the age of 64, was
> interred at Laugardaelir church outside the town of Selfoss, Iceland's
> Channel 2 reported, citing the parish priest.
>
> The Rev. Kristinn Agust Fridfinnsson told the TV station the ceremony
> was arranged so hastily he did not arrive until after the ceremony was
> over.
>
> The funeral was attended by only a handful of people, including
> Fischer's longtime companion, Miyoko Watai, and friend and spokesman
> Gardar Sverrisson, the TV station reported.
>
> ***********
>
> =A0 My web searches for "Laugardaelir church" just turned up hits on the
> Fischer story.

A little further searching turned up this AP account, which does say
it was a Catholic ceremony.

Chess champion Bobby Fischer buried in Iceland
Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:13pm
By Kristin Arna Bragadottir

REYKJAVIK (Reuters) - Chess legend Bobby Fischer, who died in Iceland
last week aged 64, was buried on Monday in a private ceremony near the
city that hosted his famous victory over the Soviet Union's Boris
Spassky 35 years ago.

Fischer's spokesman, Gardar Sverrisson, said the American-born world
chess champion was buried on Monday morning at a quiet ceremony
attended by a few friends and his companion, Japanese chess player
Miyoko Watai.

The Catholic burial was held on a cold, bright day at a small country
church near the southern Icelandic town of Selfoss, about 60
kilometers (37 miles) southeast of Reykjavik.

One of the attendees, who declined to be identified, said Fischer had
requested that only a handful of people be at his funeral.

The quiet end of Fischer's life contrasted with the fiery nature of
his life, both at and away from the chess board.



  
Date: 26 Jan 2008 16:26:25
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
There's a photo of the church where Fischer was buried at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laugard%C3%A6lakirkja.JPG


Dave.

--
David Richerby Evil Cat (TM): it's like a cat but
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's genuinely evil!


 
Date: 26 Jan 2008 06:20:36
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 26, 1:10=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:57 pm, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> > Fischer was not buried in a Catholic cemetery.
>
> Can you prove that??!!

This article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7244323,00.html

says that Fischer was buried in a churchyard, but not the denomination
of the church:

*********
Tuesday January 22, 2008 12:46 AM

REYKJAVIK, Iceland (AP) - Reclusive chess genius Bobby Fischer was
buried Monday in a private ceremony at a churchyard in southern
Iceland, a television station reported.

Fischer, who died of kidney failure on Thursday at the age of 64, was
interred at Laugardaelir church outside the town of Selfoss, Iceland's
Channel 2 reported, citing the parish priest.

The Rev. Kristinn Agust Fridfinnsson told the TV station the ceremony
was arranged so hastily he did not arrive until after the ceremony was
over.

The funeral was attended by only a handful of people, including
Fischer's longtime companion, Miyoko Watai, and friend and spokesman
Gardar Sverrisson, the TV station reported.

***********

My web searches for "Laugardaelir church" just turned up hits on the
Fischer story.


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 22:10:26
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 10:57 pm, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 7:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> Fischer was not buried in a Catholic cemetery.

Can you prove that??!!


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 14:57:58
From: sigvaldi
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 7:31=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.

Fischer was not buried in a Catholic cemetery.


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 09:30:41
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 3:55 pm, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> I had hoped he would have been buried in a Jewish cemetery, and the
> kaddish would have been recited for him. But then I'm fond of irony.

In Iceland that would PROBABLY have been hard to arrange.


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 08:07:13
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 10:55=A0am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> I had hoped he would have been buried in a Jewish cemetery, and the
> kaddish would have been recited for him. But then I'm fond of irony.

Good thing they didn't. Here's what would have happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DA4iRRkjmrFk&NR=3D1


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 07:55:23
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.

I had hoped he would have been buried in a Jewish cemetery, and the
kaddish would have been recited for him. But then I'm fond of irony.


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 06:26:28
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 8:56=A0am, "Chess One" <OneCh...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "Taylor Kingston" <tkings...@chittenden.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e03cb964-bcfc-4371-a8d8-615820183703@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> > managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> > Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> > religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.
>
> =A0 The kings of England all died Catholics? I thought very few had,
> since Henry VIII split the C of E off from the See of Rome.
>
> **At one time I thought the See of Rome was Lake Constance,

No, the Sea of Rome is the Mediterranean.

> and have you
> ever tried to find the 2 Sicilies? PI

Oh, those have been lost for a long time, nearly 150 years, but I
understand a branch of the House of Bourbon still claims title to the
kingdom. Personally I think one Siciliy is quite enough, and I much
prefer Scotch to Bourbon.


 
Date: 25 Jan 2008 05:48:13
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant
On Jan 25, 2:31=A0am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.

The kings of England all died Catholics? I thought very few had,
since Henry VIII split the C of E off from the See of Rome.


  
Date: 25 Jan 2008 08:56:00
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Fischer the recusant

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com > wrote in message
news:e03cb964-bcfc-4371-a8d8-615820183703@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 25, 2:31 am, Offramp <alaneobr...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Even in as Lutheran a country as Iceland the old Chicagoite Fischer
> managed to find a Catholic cemetery to be buried in.
> Like all Kings of England, this King of Chess found the one true
> religion in the end and died in peace with himself and God.

The kings of England all died Catholics? I thought very few had,
since Henry VIII split the C of E off from the See of Rome.

**At one time I thought the See of Rome was Lake Constance, and have you
ever tried to find the 2 Sicilies? PI