Fleahouse question

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Date: 07 Aug 2007 17:18:54
From: N. Silver
Subject: Fleahouse question

What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
games in a row, according to Sam Sloan?

Date: 18 Aug 2007 14:34:02
From: Larry Tapper
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

On Aug 17, 11:42 pm, "Ian Burton" <notva...@notvalid.com > wrote:
> "Larry Tapper" <larry_tap...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187297657.937371.210030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> >>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
> >> >>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
> >> >>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?
>
> >> >> Miguel Najdorf.
>
> >> > Thanks
>
> >> Whoever it was, it was definitely NOT Najdorf. I'd bet anything on
> >> that.
>
> > It was Najdorf, according to a story Sloan posted here 12 years ago(!)
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/35s5a3
>
> > Why do you find this so hard to believe? Najdorf was very good, and in
> > his later years he liked to play 7-minute. In the early 80s I had the
> > pleasure of watching him play a friendly series of blitz games with
> > Bill Lombardy, in the Game Room at 74th and Broadway.
>
> > LT
>
> Now that I've read Sloan's account, I can tell you I question most of it.

Ian,

Thanks very much for posting your recollections of what was going on
in the New York chess scene.

While I certainly do not blame you for questioning Sam's account, it
looks like one poster in that old 1995 thread actually contacted Valvo
on ICS and Valvo verified that it was he who had been shellacked by
Najdorf.

Also:

> Note Larry that your question has Valvo as being 17. Sloan does not give
> his age, but in 1969, Mike would have been 27.

You are misreading the posts. Nobody in these threads, including Sam,
has written that Valvo was 17 at the time --- 17 is supposed to be the
number of games Najdorf won in a row.

And:

> Back to Sam's account. The year he gives is circa 1969. He has Najdorf
> playing in the fleahouse, when he could easily have played at the Manhattan.
> Najdorf, a millionaire, with more interest in the gambling than the money,
> could have arranged rapid matches with almost any of the top players in the
> US. Why demean himself by going the fleahouse to play the likes of a Sam
> Sloan? That Valvo dropped by was luck.

Seems to me that a bon vivant like Najdorf would go wherever the
impulse of the moment took him. As I recall, he and his friend Sam
Schweber had the reputation of frequenting seedy dives around Buenos
Aires. So a slumming expedition to the Flea House doesn't strike me as
implausible. Still the Flea House venue apparently hasn't been
independently verified, so we can remain agnostic about that part of
Sam's story.

Larry T.

>
> What I certainly do not question is Najdorf's ability in rapid chess. I had
> witnessed his match against Reshevsky at the Manhattan Chess Club in the
> early 1950s. A little known fact about that match, won by Sammy, is that
> there was heavy betting taking place by Sammy's chess patrons. To keep
> Najdorf occupied and distracted for the course of the New York games, his
> late evenings were taken up not only with women, but also by rapid chess.
> Abe Turner, one of America's strongest rapid players, was paid to play him
> endless numbers of 5-minute games, with sessions lasting into the early
> morning hours. I watched many of those sessions, and while Abe did quite
> well, it was Najdorf who came out on top.
>
> Back to Sam's account. The year he gives is circa 1969. He has Najdorf
> playing in the fleahouse, when he could easily have played at the Manhattan.
> Najdorf, a millionaire, with more interest in the gambling than the money,
> could have arranged rapid matches with almost any of the top players in the
> US. Why demean himself by going the fleahouse to play the likes of a Sam
> Sloan? That Valvo dropped by was luck. Sloan also introduces Harold
> Feldheim -- now a well-known Bridge authority -- into the story. I know
> Harry from his days in New York's High School League in 1950 and a few years
> after. Once he was of college age, he disappeared from the New York Chess
> scene. I am certain I did not lay eyes on him from, let's say, 1956 onward.
> Whether he went to college, I do not know, but disappear he did.
>
> Mysterious things do take place in this world, so the bare possibility
> exists that the evening Sam describes did take place. I'm just enormously
> doubtful.
>
> Note Larry that your question has Valvo as being 17. Sloan does not give
> his age, but in 1969, Mike would have been 27.
> --
> Ian Burton
> (Please reply to the Newsgroup)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Date: 18 Aug 2007 15:36:24
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

"Larry Tapper" <larry_tapper@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1187472842.662048.163610@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 17, 11:42 pm, "Ian Burton" <notva...@notvalid.com> wrote:
>> "Larry Tapper" <larry_tap...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187297657.937371.210030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
>> >> >>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
>> >> >>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?
>>
>> >> >> Miguel Najdorf.
>>
>> >> > Thanks
>>
>> >> Whoever it was, it was definitely NOT Najdorf. I'd bet anything on
>> >> that.
>>
>> > It was Najdorf, according to a story Sloan posted here 12 years ago(!)
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com/35s5a3
>>
>> > Why do you find this so hard to believe? Najdorf was very good, and in
>> > his later years he liked to play 7-minute. In the early 80s I had the
>> > pleasure of watching him play a friendly series of blitz games with
>> > Bill Lombardy, in the Game Room at 74th and Broadway.
>>
>> > LT
>>
>> Now that I've read Sloan's account, I can tell you I question most of it.
>
> Ian,
>
> Thanks very much for posting your recollections of what was going on
> in the New York chess scene.

You're very welcome.

> While I certainly do not blame you for questioning Sam's account, it
> looks like one poster in that old 1995 thread actually contacted Valvo
> on ICS and Valvo verified that it was he who had been shellacked by
> Najdorf.

I have little doubt that Najdorf could have shellacked Valvo, but where is
what primarily disturbs me -- along with the many holes in Sam's account.

>
> Also:
>
>> Note Larry that your question has Valvo as being 17. Sloan does not give
>> his age, but in 1969, Mike would have been 27.
>
> You are misreading the posts. Nobody in these threads, including Sam,
> has written that Valvo was 17 at the time --- 17 is supposed to be the
> number of games Najdorf won in a row.

Ah, so. The comma after Valvo misled me: "What was the name of the elderly
gentleman,
who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute games in a row, according toSam
Sloan?" The sentence would have been clearer without that comma. (There's
no need for the comma after gentleman either.)

Speaking of age, "old man" Najdorf was all of 59 in 1969. It's a bit odd to
describe a 59-year-old as "old." But few things Sloan posts are not odd. I
see, too, that in that 1995 thread Valvo is quoted as saying the "old man"
wasn't very old.

> And:
>
>> Back to Sam's account. The year he gives is circa 1969. He has Najdorf
>> playing in the fleahouse, when he could easily have played at the
>> Manhattan.
>> Najdorf, a millionaire, with more interest in the gambling than the
>> money,
>> could have arranged rapid matches with almost any of the top players in
>> the
>> US. Why demean himself by going the fleahouse to play the likes of a Sam
>> Sloan? That Valvo dropped by was luck.
>
> Seems to me that a bon vivant like Najdorf would go wherever the
> impulse of the moment took him. As I recall, he and his friend Sam
> Schweber had the reputation of frequenting seedy dives around Buenos
> Aires. So a slumming expedition to the Flea House doesn't strike me as
> implausible. Still the Flea House venue apparently hasn't been
> independently verified, so we can remain agnostic about that part of
> Sam's story.

As I wrote earlier, mysterious things do take place in this world, and the
evening described is definitely mysterious. Too bad Mike's no longer here
to give his own story. Too bad Mike's no longer here. Sigh.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

>
> Larry T.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> What I certainly do not question is Najdorf's ability in rapid chess. I
>> had
>> witnessed his match against Reshevsky at the Manhattan Chess Club in the
>> early 1950s. A little known fact about that match, won by Sammy, is that
>> there was heavy betting taking place by Sammy's chess patrons. To keep
>> Najdorf occupied and distracted for the course of the New York games, his
>> late evenings were taken up not only with women, but also by rapid chess.
>> Abe Turner, one of America's strongest rapid players, was paid to play
>> him
>> endless numbers of 5-minute games, with sessions lasting into the early
>> morning hours. I watched many of those sessions, and while Abe did quite
>> well, it was Najdorf who came out on top.
>>
>> Back to Sam's account. The year he gives is circa 1969. He has Najdorf
>> playing in the fleahouse, when he could easily have played at the
>> Manhattan.
>> Najdorf, a millionaire, with more interest in the gambling than the
>> money,
>> could have arranged rapid matches with almost any of the top players in
>> the
>> US. Why demean himself by going the fleahouse to play the likes of a Sam
>> Sloan? That Valvo dropped by was luck. Sloan also introduces Harold
>> Feldheim -- now a well-known Bridge authority -- into the story. I know
>> Harry from his days in New York's High School League in 1950 and a few
>> years
>> after. Once he was of college age, he disappeared from the New York
>> Chess
>> scene. I am certain I did not lay eyes on him from, let's say, 1956
>> onward.
>> Whether he went to college, I do not know, but disappear he did.
>>
>> Mysterious things do take place in this world, so the bare possibility
>> exists that the evening Sam describes did take place. I'm just
>> enormously
>> doubtful.
>>
>> Note Larry that your question has Valvo as being 17. Sloan does not give
>> his age, but in 1969, Mike would have been 27.
>> --
>> Ian Burton
>> (Please reply to the Newsgroup)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>

Date: 16 Aug 2007 13:54:17
From: Larry Tapper
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

> >>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
> >>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
> >>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?
>
> >> Miguel Najdorf.
>
> > Thanks
>
> Whoever it was, it was definitely NOT Najdorf. I'd bet anything on that.

It was Najdorf, according to a story Sloan posted here 12 years ago(!)

http://tinyurl.com/35s5a3

Why do you find this so hard to believe? Najdorf was very good, and in
his later years he liked to play 7-minute. In the early 80s I had the
pleasure of watching him play a friendly series of blitz games with
Bill Lombardy, in the Game Room at 74th and Broadway.

LT

Date: 17 Aug 2007 20:42:53
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

"Larry Tapper" <larry_tapper@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1187297657.937371.210030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>> >>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
>> >>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
>> >>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?
>>
>> >> Miguel Najdorf.
>>
>> > Thanks
>>
>> Whoever it was, it was definitely NOT Najdorf. I'd bet anything on
>> that.
>
> It was Najdorf, according to a story Sloan posted here 12 years ago(!)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/35s5a3
>
> Why do you find this so hard to believe? Najdorf was very good, and in
> his later years he liked to play 7-minute. In the early 80s I had the
> pleasure of watching him play a friendly series of blitz games with
> Bill Lombardy, in the Game Room at 74th and Broadway.
>
> LT

Now that I've read Sloan's account, I can tell you I question most of it.

What I certainly do not question is Najdorf's ability in rapid chess. I had
witnessed his match against Reshevsky at the Manhattan Chess Club in the
early 1950s. A little known fact about that match, won by Sammy, is that
there was heavy betting taking place by Sammy's chess patrons. To keep
Najdorf occupied and distracted for the course of the New York games, his
late evenings were taken up not only with women, but also by rapid chess.
Abe Turner, one of America's strongest rapid players, was paid to play him
endless numbers of 5-minute games, with sessions lasting into the early
morning hours. I watched many of those sessions, and while Abe did quite
well, it was Najdorf who came out on top.

Back to Sam's account. The year he gives is circa 1969. He has Najdorf
playing in the fleahouse, when he could easily have played at the Manhattan.
Najdorf, a millionaire, with more interest in the gambling than the money,
could have arranged rapid matches with almost any of the top players in the
US. Why demean himself by going the fleahouse to play the likes of a Sam
Sloan? That Valvo dropped by was luck. Sloan also introduces Harold
Feldheim -- now a well-known Bridge authority -- into the story. I know
Harry from his days in New York's High School League in 1950 and a few years
after. Once he was of college age, he disappeared from the New York Chess
scene. I am certain I did not lay eyes on him from, let's say, 1956 onward.
Whether he went to college, I do not know, but disappear he did.

Mysterious things do take place in this world, so the bare possibility
exists that the evening Sam describes did take place. I'm just enormously
doubtful.

Note Larry that your question has Valvo as being 17. Sloan does not give
his age, but in 1969, Mike would have been 27.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

Date: 18 Aug 2007 21:47:39
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

Ian Burton <notvalid@notvalid.com > wrote:
> Now that I've read Sloan's account, I can tell you I question most
> of it.

Jeez, I coulda told you that without you going to all that effort. ;-)

Dave.

--
David Richerby Electronic Solar-Powered Laser (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an intense beam of light
but it doesn't work in the dark and
it uses electricity!

Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:50:35
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

"N. Silver" <mathelp@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:2Q1ui.406528$p47.23653@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
> games in a row, according to Sam Sloan?

Might it have been Yakov Bernstein? I know he gave an amazing amount of
trouble to Jimmy Sherwin and other excellent young players back then..
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
>
>

Date: 09 Aug 2007 04:09:01
From:
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

On 7 Aug, 18:18, "N. Silver" <math...@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?

Miguel Najdorf.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 10:38:08
From: N. Silver
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

Jon wrote:
> N. Silver wrote:

>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?

> Miguel Najdorf.

Thanks

Date: 16 Aug 2007 08:21:27
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: Fleahouse question

"N. Silver" <mathelp@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:kOVwi.38302$ax1.34106@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Jon wrote:
>> N. Silver wrote:
>
>>> What was the name of the elderly gentleman,
>>> who beat Michael Valvo 17, seven-minute
>>> games in a row, according toSam Sloan?
>
>> Miguel Najdorf.
>
> Thanks

Whoever it was, it was definitely NOT Najdorf. I'd bet anything on that.

Why hasn't Sam answered?

AR