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Main
Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
recommended opening theory.
Marshall - Ragozin [1940]
1 e4 c5
2 b4 cxb4
3 a3 Nc6
4 axb4 Nf6
5 b5 Nd4
[the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
made 5 pawn moves]
6 c3 Ne6
7 e5 Nd5
8 c4 Ndf4
9 g3 Ng6
10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
11 gxf4 Nxf4
12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
13 h4 e6
14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
14 ...Bb4+
15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
15. ... Bxd2+
16 Nxd2 Ne7
17 Ne4 Nf5
18 h6 g6
19 Nf6+ Kf8
20 Nf3 d6
21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
21 ... dxe5
22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
using rooks.... argh!]
23 Rxd1 Ke7
24 Rh3 b6
25 Bg2 Rb8
26 Ngxh7 1-0
And serves Black right!
Phil Innes
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Date: 24 Nov 2008 05:52:02
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
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On Nov 21, 9:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> recommended opening theory.
>
> Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> 1 e4 c5
> 2 b4 cxb4
> 3 a3 Nc6
> 4 axb4 Nf6
> 5 b5 Nd4
> [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
> made 5 pawn moves]
> 6 c3 Ne6
> 7 e5 Nd5
> 8 c4 Ndf4
> 9 g3 Ng6
> 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> 13 h4 e6
> 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> 14 ...Bb4+
> 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
> level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> 15. ... Bxd2+
> 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> 17 Ne4 Nf5
> 18 h6 g6
> 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> 20 Nf3 d6
> 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> 21 ... dxe5
> 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> using rooks.... argh!]
> 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> 24 Rh3 b6
> 25 Bg2 Rb8
> 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> And serves Black right!
>
> Phil Innes
Black was Hy Ragozin. I knew him well. He was the father of Don
Ragozin of Los Angeles, whom I defeated in the last round to win the
1963 Southern California Amateur Championship.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 23 Nov 2008 06:12:00
From:
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 23, 7:24=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Damsky wrote V. Ragozin for his Batsford title - and there are lots of
> goggable references to it, including 37 entire pages athttp://books.googl=
e.com/books?id=3DpO5j-d1P9vEC&dq=3Ddamsky+batsford&prin...
Ahem, Phil -- is your dyslexia acting up again? That link displays
scanned pages from the printed book, and on page 39 it clearly shows
"Marshall-NN," exactly as in my copy of the book. No "V. Ragozin" or
any name at all for the player of Black.
> naturally after looking through them all the game in question is
> absent :(
> refining my search from "Damsky Batsford" which provided 1,500
> references
>
> then I started to find references such as "The Batsford book of chess
> records by Yakov Damsky ... Marshall,F - Ragozin,V New York, " see the
> URL =A0chessbooks.nl/elburg93.html
You really are having trouble understanding what you read, aren't
you, Phil? That page, a review by John Elburg, clearly says "Damsky
gives the black player a NN but in my database I found the name
Ragozin." So once again this site refutes your claim and validates
mine.
> there is also
> Iakov Damsky - The Batsford Book of Chess Records - 304 pages ... -
> [ Translate this page ]chess online-shop Niggemann: Iakov Damsky - The
> Batsford Book of Chess ... Marshall,F - Ragozin,V New York, 1940 1.e4
> c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 Nc6 4.axb4 Nf6 5.b5 ...www.schachversand.de/e/detail/bu=
echer/8123.html- 34k -
That site merely reproduces the aforementioned Elburg review, which
again clearly says "Damsky gives the black player a NN ..."
> The definitive refutation [for Taylor Kingston] as I noted before
> seems to be by George M at an obscure chess outfit named =A0Chesscafe -
> specifically,http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review429.pdf
This again does nothing at all to establish your claim that Damsky
gave "V. Ragozin." It makes no reference at all to Damsky or The
Batsfor Book of Chess Records. The only remotely relevant statement it
makes is:
"Game 1 is given as Marshall-Ragozin, 1940. It should have been
rendered as Marshall-Rogosin, New York 1940, since it was Hyman "Hy"
Rogosin, not Vlacheslav Ragozin (the best-known Ragozin) who played
Marshall in the Marshall Chess Club Championship of 1940."
This has no bearing whatsoever on how Damsky labeled the game.
Phil, rather than validate your claim that "Damsky wrote V. Ragozin
for his Batsford title," you have in fact presented evidence that
Damsky did no such thing. That's our Phil, his pistol aimed squarely
at his own foot.
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Date: 23 Nov 2008 04:24:34
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
Damsky wrote V. Ragozin for his Batsford title - and there are lots of
goggable references to it, including 37 entire pages at
http://books.google.com/books?id=pO5j-d1P9vEC&dq=damsky+batsford&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=UxpxVrPOJY&sig=_glXUMaBcQDkmHFEBrLPgSoBLnE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA34,M1
naturally after looking through them all the game in question is
absent :(
refining my search from "Damsky Batsford" which provided 1,500
references
then I started to find references such as "The Batsford book of chess
records by Yakov Damsky ... Marshall,F - Ragozin,V New York, " see the
URL chessbooks.nl/elburg93.html
there is also
Iakov Damsky - The Batsford Book of Chess Records - 304 pages ... -
[ Translate this page ]chess online-shop Niggemann: Iakov Damsky - The
Batsford Book of Chess ... Marshall,F - Ragozin,V New York, 1940 1.e4
c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 Nc6 4.axb4 Nf6 5.b5 ...
www.schachversand.de/e/detail/buecher/8123.html - 34k -
The definitive refutation [for Taylor Kingston] as I noted before
seems to be by George M at an obscure chess outfit named Chesscafe -
specifically, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review429.pdf
of course the review itself needs a sense of humor to review, since
eg, George asks for a definitive quote, offering 2 varieties of
'quote' in the book, presumably because he thought Tarrasch said it in
English?
the definitive spelling instance occurs on page 4 of the review - and
while making an adquate point that the players are likely to be
confused with each other - it makes far too much of a point about
fixing spellings - as if history and custom are not the dominant
factors - especially in the 'translation' of Russian names, etc -
which are merely fashions, or even worse than that - as in the
missapprehension of 'foreign' names when immigrating into another
country.
better to decide that Russians themselves can pronounce "Aljecin" with
2, 3 or 4 syllables, possibly depending on whether you are from St.
Petersburg, Moscow or Baku - as I witness from Russian chess friends -
but no-one at all even attempts "Alekhine" in English or as it was
intended, French.
There.
Phil Innes
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Date: 22 Nov 2008 15:39:17
From: Andrew B.
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On 21 Nov, 14:39, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> recommended opening theory.
>
> Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> 1 e4 c5
> 2 b4 cxb4
> 3 a3 Nc6
> 4 axb4 Nf6
> 5 b5 Nd4
> [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
> made 5 pawn moves]
> 6 c3 Ne6
> 7 e5 Nd5
> 8 c4 Ndf4
> 9 g3 Ng6
> 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> 13 h4 e6
> 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> 14 ...Bb4+
> 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
> level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/diary_17.htm (entry 335):
"Diemer - Heiling, Nuremberg 1984
1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3.e4 g6 4.g4 Bg7 5.g5 Nfd7 6.f4 c5 7.d5 b5 8.c3 a6
9.h4 Nb6 10.h5 e6 11.h6 Bf8 12.a4 exd5 13.a5 N6d7 14.exd5 Be7 15.c4 f6
16.cxb5 fxg5 17.f5 gxf5
After starting the game with 17 pawn moves (a record in itself), White
makes a first piece move: 18.Qh5+"
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Date: 21 Nov 2008 16:33:16
From:
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 21, 12:02=EF=BF=BDpm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > On Nov 21, 10:39=EF=BF=BDam, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 21, 9:39=EF=BF=BDam, "[email protected]" <[email protected]=
m > wrote:
> >
> > > > Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> > > > reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> > > > young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> > > > recommended opening theory.
> >
> > > > Marshall - Ragozin =EF=BF=BD[1940]
> >
> > > =EF=BF=BD Readers might assume from the above heading that Marshall w=
as
> > > playing the Russian GM Viacheslav Ragozin. He was not. It's doubtful
> > > Ragozin left Russia in 1940, nor did Marshall traveled there that
> > > year, as far as I can determine.
> >
> > Yes - actually sources vary whether this was Hyman "Hy" Rogosin, or V.
> > Ragozin.
>
> Yes, chess sources often vary, usually because some chess writers
> are careless and lazy. A useful rule of thumb is to consider the
> closeness of the source to the person and/or event in question. In
> this case I would consider the 1940 Chess Review authoritative, since
> it was practically the Marshall Chess Club's house organ, and several
> of its contributors were likely eye-witnesses to this game.
>
> > It is interesting that Sam Palatnik uses the spelling
> > "Ragozin" and so does Yakov Damsky in his Batsford title -
>
> Those writers are far removed from the game in question, in terms of
> both time and distance.
>
> > in fact,
> > Damsky appends the initial "V". while appending the same game score
> > [played NY 1940] in the Batsford Book of Chess Records.
>
> I'd still like to know where you see Damsky saying that. In my
> edition of that book (2005), he says "Marshall-NN." No Rogosin or
> Ragozin, with or without a V.
>
> > George Mirijanian says it was Hy Ragozin in hsi Review of Sam's book,
> > The Tarrasch Formula.
> >
> > In investigating this apparent series of gaffes - I was amused to see
> > that while the Chess Independent of London got the players right, they
> > gave Frank the Black pieces.
> >
> > They also stated a longer series of pawn moves in Black: Emil Diemer
> > White: Thomas Helling, T. Nuremberg, 1984 .Pirc Defence
> >
> > Phil Innes
> >
> >
> >
> > > =EF=BF=BD Per the August-September issue of Chess Review, page 128, B=
lack here
> > > was an obscure New York player, H. Rogosin. According to Woodger's bi=
o
> > > of Fine, page 224, Rogosin finished =3D13th-14th (of 17) in the
> > > tournament where this game was played, the 23rd Marshall Chess Club
> > > Championship, November 1939 - March 1940. He scored +3 -12 =3D1, beat=
ing
> > > only his fellow tail-enders Goldwater, Knorr and Howard.
> >
> > > =EF=BF=BD This sort of spelling error is common in today's databases =
and
> > > online sources.
> >
> > > > 1 e4 c5
> > > > 2 b4 cxb4
> > > > 3 a3 Nc6
> > > > 4 axb4 Nf6
> > > > 5 b5 Nd4
> > > > [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall =
has
> > > > made 5 pawn moves]
> > > > 6 c3 Ne6
> > > > 7 e5 Nd5
> > > > 8 c4 Ndf4
> > > > 9 g3 Ng6
> > > > 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> > > > 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c=
7,
> > > > when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> > > > 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> > > > 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated=
!]
> > > > 13 h4 e6
> > > > 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> > > > 14 ...Bb4+
> > > > 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing =
a
> > > > piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to se=
e
> > > > Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at t=
his
> > > > level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> > > > 15. ... Bxd2+
> > > > 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> > > > 17 Ne4 Nf5
> > > > 18 h6 g6
> > > > 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> > > > 20 Nf3 d6
> > > > 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> > > > he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> > > > 21 ... dxe5
> > > > 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> > > > using rooks.... argh!]
> > > > 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> > > > 24 Rh3 b6
> > > > 25 Bg2 Rb8
> > > > 26 Ngxh7 =EF=BF=BD1-0
> >
> > > > And serves Black right!
> >
> > > > Phil Innes- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
The game is in Marshall's book as Marshall - H. Rogosin, Marshall CC
Championship 1940. Presumably Marshall knew who he was playing. Of
course, Fred Reinfeld had a lot to do with the book, but he was there
too.
Confusion of names is hardly surprising when we're dealing with
multiple languages and multiple alphabets. I've seen a few citations
of a game between Tartakover and "Zuckerman." It was actually
Cukiermann.
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Date: 21 Nov 2008 14:08:15
From:
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 21, 12:02=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> On Nov 21, 10:39=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote=
:
>
> > > Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> > > reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> > > young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> > > recommended opening theory.
>
> > > Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> > =A0 Readers might assume from the above heading that Marshall was
> > playing the Russian GM Viacheslav Ragozin. He was not. It's doubtful
> > Ragozin left Russia in 1940, nor did Marshall traveled there that
> > year, as far as I can determine.
>
> Yes - actually sources vary whether this was Hyman "Hy" Rogosin, or V.
> Ragozin.
Yes, chess sources often vary, usually because some chess writers
are careless and lazy. A useful rule of thumb is to consider the
closeness of the source to the person and/or event in question. In
this case I would consider the 1940 Chess Review authoritative, since
it was practically the Marshall Chess Club's house organ, and several
of its contributors were likely eye-witnesses to this game.
> It is interesting that Sam Palatnik uses the spelling
> "Ragozin" and so does Yakov Damsky in his Batsford title -
Those writers are far removed from the game in question, in terms of
both time and distance.
> in fact,
> Damsky appends the initial "V". while appending the same game score
> [played NY 1940] in the Batsford Book of Chess Records.
I'd still like to know where you see Damsky saying that. In my
edition of that book (2005), he says "Marshall-NN." No Rogosin or
Ragozin, with or without a V.
> George Mirijanian says it was Hy Ragozin in hsi Review of Sam's book,
> The Tarrasch Formula.
>
> In investigating this apparent series of gaffes - I was amused to see
> that while the Chess Independent of London got the players right, they
> gave Frank the Black pieces.
>
> They also stated a longer series of pawn moves in Black: Emil Diemer
> White: Thomas Helling, T. Nuremberg, 1984 .Pirc Defence
>
> Phil Innes
>
>
>
> > =A0 Per the August-September issue of Chess Review, page 128, Black her=
e
> > was an obscure New York player, H. Rogosin. According to Woodger's bio
> > of Fine, page 224, Rogosin finished =3D13th-14th (of 17) in the
> > tournament where this game was played, the 23rd Marshall Chess Club
> > Championship, November 1939 - March 1940. He scored +3 -12 =3D1, beatin=
g
> > only his fellow tail-enders Goldwater, Knorr and Howard.
>
> > =A0 This sort of spelling error is common in today's databases and
> > online sources.
>
> > > 1 e4 c5
> > > 2 b4 cxb4
> > > 3 a3 Nc6
> > > 4 axb4 Nf6
> > > 5 b5 Nd4
> > > [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall ha=
s
> > > made 5 pawn moves]
> > > 6 c3 Ne6
> > > 7 e5 Nd5
> > > 8 c4 Ndf4
> > > 9 g3 Ng6
> > > 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> > > 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> > > when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> > > 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> > > 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> > > 13 h4 e6
> > > 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> > > 14 ...Bb4+
> > > 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> > > piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> > > Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at thi=
s
> > > level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> > > 15. ... Bxd2+
> > > 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> > > 17 Ne4 Nf5
> > > 18 h6 g6
> > > 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> > > 20 Nf3 d6
> > > 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> > > he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> > > 21 ... dxe5
> > > 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> > > using rooks.... argh!]
> > > 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> > > 24 Rh3 b6
> > > 25 Bg2 Rb8
> > > 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> > > And serves Black right!
>
> > > Phil Innes- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| |
Date: 21 Nov 2008 13:42:24
From: zdrakec
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 21, 8:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> recommended opening theory.
>
> Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> 1 e4 c5
> 2 b4 cxb4
> 3 a3 Nc6
> 4 axb4 Nf6
> 5 b5 Nd4
> [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
> made 5 pawn moves]
> 6 c3 Ne6
> 7 e5 Nd5
> 8 c4 Ndf4
> 9 g3 Ng6
> 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> 13 h4 e6
> 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> 14 ...Bb4+
> 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
> level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> 15. ... Bxd2+
> 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> 17 Ne4 Nf5
> 18 h6 g6
> 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> 20 Nf3 d6
> 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> 21 ... dxe5
> 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> using rooks.... argh!]
> 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> 24 Rh3 b6
> 25 Bg2 Rb8
> 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> And serves Black right!
>
> Phil Innes
And they say that infantry can't stand up to calvary.
|
| |
Date: 21 Nov 2008 09:35:26
From:
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 21, 12:02=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> On Nov 21, 10:39=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote=
:
>
> > > Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> > > reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> > > young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> > > recommended opening theory.
>
> > > Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> > =A0 Readers might assume from the above heading that Marshall was
> > playing the Russian GM Viacheslav Ragozin. He was not. It's doubtful
> > Ragozin left Russia in 1940, nor did Marshall traveled there that
> > year, as far as I can determine.
>
> Yes - actually sources vary whether this was Hyman "Hy" Rogosin, or V.
> Ragozin. It is interesting that Sam Palatnik uses the spelling
> "Ragozin" and so does Yakov Damsky in his Batsford title - in fact,
> Damsky appends the initial "V". while appending the same game score
> [played NY 1940] in the Batsford Book of Chess Records.
Really? Checking page 39, I see Damsky giving it as "Marshall-NN."
Nothing about Ragozin or Rogosin. Has there been a second edition of
that book published? My copy of The Batsford Book of Chess Records
says "copyright 2005."
> George Mirijanian says it was Hy Ragozin in hsi Review of Sam's book,
> The Tarrasch Formula.
>
> In investigating this apparent series of gaffes - I was amused to see
> that while the Chess Independent of London got the players right, they
> gave Frank the Black pieces.
>
> They also stated a longer series of pawn moves in Black: Emil Diemer
> White: Thomas Helling, T. Nuremberg, 1984 .Pirc Defence
>
> Phil Innes
>
>
>
> > =A0 Per the August-September issue of Chess Review, page 128, Black her=
e
> > was an obscure New York player, H. Rogosin. According to Woodger's bio
> > of Fine, page 224, Rogosin finished =3D13th-14th (of 17) in the
> > tournament where this game was played, the 23rd Marshall Chess Club
> > Championship, November 1939 - March 1940. He scored +3 -12 =3D1, beatin=
g
> > only his fellow tail-enders Goldwater, Knorr and Howard.
>
> > =A0 This sort of spelling error is common in today's databases and
> > online sources.
>
> > > 1 e4 c5
> > > 2 b4 cxb4
> > > 3 a3 Nc6
> > > 4 axb4 Nf6
> > > 5 b5 Nd4
> > > [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall ha=
s
> > > made 5 pawn moves]
> > > 6 c3 Ne6
> > > 7 e5 Nd5
> > > 8 c4 Ndf4
> > > 9 g3 Ng6
> > > 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> > > 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> > > when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> > > 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> > > 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> > > 13 h4 e6
> > > 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> > > 14 ...Bb4+
> > > 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> > > piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> > > Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at thi=
s
> > > level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> > > 15. ... Bxd2+
> > > 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> > > 17 Ne4 Nf5
> > > 18 h6 g6
> > > 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> > > 20 Nf3 d6
> > > 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> > > he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> > > 21 ... dxe5
> > > 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> > > using rooks.... argh!]
> > > 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> > > 24 Rh3 b6
> > > 25 Bg2 Rb8
> > > 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> > > And serves Black right!
>
> > > Phil Innes- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2008 09:02:56
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 21, 10:39=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 21, 9:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> > reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> > young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> > recommended opening theory.
>
> > Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
>
> =A0 Readers might assume from the above heading that Marshall was
> playing the Russian GM Viacheslav Ragozin. He was not. It's doubtful
> Ragozin left Russia in 1940, nor did Marshall traveled there that
> year, as far as I can determine.
Yes - actually sources vary whether this was Hyman "Hy" Rogosin, or V.
Ragozin. It is interesting that Sam Palatnik uses the spelling
"Ragozin" and so does Yakov Damsky in his Batsford title - in fact,
Damsky appends the initial "V". while appending the same game score
[played NY 1940] in the Batsford Book of Chess Records.
George Mirijanian says it was Hy Ragozin in hsi Review of Sam's book,
The Tarrasch Formula.
In investigating this apparent series of gaffes - I was amused to see
that while the Chess Independent of London got the players right, they
gave Frank the Black pieces.
They also stated a longer series of pawn moves in Black: Emil Diemer
White: Thomas Helling, T. Nuremberg, 1984 .Pirc Defence
Phil Innes
> =A0 Per the August-September issue of Chess Review, page 128, Black here
> was an obscure New York player, H. Rogosin. According to Woodger's bio
> of Fine, page 224, Rogosin finished =3D13th-14th (of 17) in the
> tournament where this game was played, the 23rd Marshall Chess Club
> Championship, November 1939 - March 1940. He scored +3 -12 =3D1, beating
> only his fellow tail-enders Goldwater, Knorr and Howard.
>
> =A0 This sort of spelling error is common in today's databases and
> online sources.
>
>
>
> > 1 e4 c5
> > 2 b4 cxb4
> > 3 a3 Nc6
> > 4 axb4 Nf6
> > 5 b5 Nd4
> > [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
> > made 5 pawn moves]
> > 6 c3 Ne6
> > 7 e5 Nd5
> > 8 c4 Ndf4
> > 9 g3 Ng6
> > 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> > 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> > when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> > 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> > 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> > 13 h4 e6
> > 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> > 14 ...Bb4+
> > 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> > piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> > Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
> > level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> > 15. ... Bxd2+
> > 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> > 17 Ne4 Nf5
> > 18 h6 g6
> > 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> > 20 Nf3 d6
> > 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> > he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> > 21 ... dxe5
> > 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> > using rooks.... argh!]
> > 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> > 24 Rh3 b6
> > 25 Bg2 Rb8
> > 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> > And serves Black right!
>
> > Phil Innes- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2008 07:41:45
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:39:38 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
>reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
>young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
>recommended opening theory.
>Marshall - Ragozin [1940]
Cute -- have you been channeling Irving Chernev?
On a pedantic side note, wasn't the Black player "Ragosin", i.e.,
Hyman Rogosin, rather than the Russian GM with the phonetically
similar name?
|
| |
Date: 21 Nov 2008 07:39:15
From:
Subject: Re: Frank's Funny Opening
|
On Nov 21, 9:39=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Since everyone at Chessville is learning new opening stuff, then
> reporting their results - I thought this was a topical subject, but
> young players should shield their eyes since it ain't exactly
> recommended opening theory.
>
> Marshall - Ragozin =A0[1940]
Readers might assume from the above heading that Marshall was
playing the Russian GM Viacheslav Ragozin. He was not. It's doubtful
Ragozin left Russia in 1940, nor did Marshall traveled there that
year, as far as I can determine.
Per the August-September issue of Chess Review, page 128, Black here
was an obscure New York player, H. Rogosin. According to Woodger's bio
of Fine, page 224, Rogosin finished =3D13th-14th (of 17) in the
tournament where this game was played, the 23rd Marshall Chess Club
Championship, November 1939 - March 1940. He scored +3 -12 =3D1, beating
only his fellow tail-enders Goldwater, Knorr and Howard.
This sort of spelling error is common in today's databases and
online sources.
> 1 e4 c5
> 2 b4 cxb4
> 3 a3 Nc6
> 4 axb4 Nf6
> 5 b5 Nd4
> [the attentive reader will have noticed that so far Frank Marshall has
> made 5 pawn moves]
> 6 c3 Ne6
> 7 e5 Nd5
> 8 c4 Ndf4
> 9 g3 Ng6
> 10 f4 [catching the drift? that's 10 pawn moves in 10 moves]
> 10 ...Ngxf4 [now, that is probably better than retreating a Kt to c7,
> when the other Kt gets the chop after f5 and d4...]
> 11 gxf4 Nxf4
> 12 d4 Ng6 [Frank just can't stop them pawn moves - he is... fixated!]
> 13 h4 e6
> 14 h5 [ROFL - 14 straight pawn moves]
> 14 ...Bb4+
> 15 Bd2 [Black had to go and spoil the game with that check forcing a
> piece move - so the 2 questions I have are (a) do we all want to see
> Black lose and soon for forcing White to move a piece, and (b) at this
> level, are 14 straight pawn moves a record in the opening?]
> 15. ... Bxd2+
> 16 Nxd2 Ne7
> 17 Ne4 Nf5
> 18 h6 g6
> 19 Nf6+ Kf8
> 20 Nf3 d6
> 21 Ng5 [Frank is very loyal to his previously moved pieces, no? Now
> he's got the hang of them horses, he can't stop moving them either]
> 21 ... dxe5
> 22 dxef Qxd1 [a terrible move, since now Frank may get the hang of
> using rooks.... argh!]
> 23 Rxd1 Ke7
> 24 Rh3 b6
> 25 Bg2 Rb8
> 26 Ngxh7 =A01-0
>
> And serves Black right!
>
> Phil Innes
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