Frequency of KBN v K ending

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Date: 01 Jul 2007 10:57:13
From: Chess One
Subject: Frequency of KBN v K ending

In a conversation last winter I was telling another player that I can't
remember which corner you have to corral the king into to mate it, and every
time I read about this KBN v K ending, I have to figure out the mate, and
then which corner is the right one. But also, in 40 to 45 years of playing a
lot of chess, I never encountered it. "Neither have I" said this other
player, who has won a couple of state championships, and is a v active ICC
blitz player.

Has [laugh] anybody? I mean, in their entire chess-life, has the KBN v K
situation ever come about? More than once?

Phil Innes

Date: 03 Jul 2007 15:53:54
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

On Jul 3, 6:05 pm, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:

> Well, hey! We seem to have two players who have encountered it twice each.
> Help-bot made the suggestion that one slip means over-running the 50-move
> rule, and Steven said how to not allow that slip. Like you, I maybe try to
> avoid these situations, but with me I try to get it solved in the middle
> game, and am no 'fist' at endgames at all. I even have that fella's endgame
> book, have had it for 15 years, but can't crack the covers ;(

You won't necessarily overstep the fifty moves where the
enemy King escapes only once, but it is best to just get it
right the first time.

One player I know had studied this ending in some Bruce
Pandolfini book which advocated a rather peculiar method,
but he could not make it work in practice, except of course,
against weaker players. (Hey -- it always helps if one's
opponent is not able to decipher one's plan, and thus
make an attempt to thwart it.)

-- help bot

Date: 03 Jul 2007 16:47:56
From: Stephan Bird
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:57:13 +0000, in <dMLhi.4670$pa5.2696@trndny05 >,
"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net > wrote:

> In a conversation last winter I was telling another player that I can't
> remember which corner you have to corral the king into to mate it, and every
> time I read about this KBN v K ending, I have to figure out the mate, and
> then which corner is the right one. But also, in 40 to 45 years of playing a
> lot of chess, I never encountered it. "Neither have I" said this other
> player, who has won a couple of state championships, and is a v active ICC
> blitz player.
>
> Has [laugh] anybody? I mean, in their entire chess-life, has the KBN v K
> situation ever come about? More than once?

In real life (face to face), no - never faced or had to play out the
ending. On-line perhaps more often, if only because if I get the chance
(and I can see I'm not dropping one of the pieces), I tend to try and
manoeuvre into the ending if I can - not that that seems to get me very
much apart from abuse from my opponent ;)

Stephan
--
Stephan Bird MChem(Hons) AMRSC
Currently in Caernarfon, Wales

Date: 03 Jul 2007 22:05:29
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

"Stephan Bird" <stephan.j.bird@mad.scientist.comREMOVE > wrote in message
news:sbmdnTLRjcmRWRfbnZ2dnUVZ8qbinZ2d@bt.com...
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:57:13 +0000, in <dMLhi.4670$pa5.2696@trndny05>,
> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> In a conversation last winter I was telling another player that I can't
>> remember which corner you have to corral the king into to mate it, and
>> every
>> time I read about this KBN v K ending, I have to figure out the mate, and
>> then which corner is the right one. But also, in 40 to 45 years of
>> playing a
>> lot of chess, I never encountered it. "Neither have I" said this other
>> player, who has won a couple of state championships, and is a v active
>> ICC
>> blitz player.
>>
>> Has [laugh] anybody? I mean, in their entire chess-life, has the KBN v K
>> situation ever come about? More than once?
>
> In real life (face to face), no - never faced or had to play out the
> ending. On-line perhaps more often, if only because if I get the chance
> (and I can see I'm not dropping one of the pieces), I tend to try and
> manoeuvre into the ending if I can - not that that seems to get me very
> much apart from abuse from my opponent ;)
>
> Stephan

Well, hey! We seem to have two players who have encountered it twice each.
Help-bot made the suggestion that one slip means over-running the 50-move
rule, and Steven said how to not allow that slip. Like you, I maybe try to
avoid these situations, but with me I try to get it solved in the middle
game, and am no 'fist' at endgames at all. I even have that fella's endgame
book, have had it for 15 years, but can't crack the covers ;(

Phil

> Stephan Bird MChem(Hons) AMRSC
> Currently in Caernarfon, Wales

Date: 01 Jul 2007 10:09:34
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

SBD wrote:

> Yes, it has happened 3 times to me, all when I was young and rated
> 1800-2000. The first time I couldn't win it. After that I didn't make
> the mistake again.
>
> But yes, it will "never happen" to most people as usually in such
> material imbalances, "other things" happen first. You learn it not so
> much because it will come up in a future game; but because it will
> help you learn how to use B+N in a variety of settings. Also how to
> mate - this sounds silly, but how many of us have sacrificed in a game
> and had "check, check, check" but then allow the King to escape? It
> has happened to me, and the discipline you learn from that ending
> helps you in finding "quiet moves" in mating sequences......
>
> With Nalimov, it is a very easy thing to study - just place any B+N+K
> vs K you want into the online database and follow the best moves.
> After 15-20 minutes of study you will know all you need to know.

The main problem most decent players have is that the
Knight tends to get in the way of their own King. This
happens mainly where both men are side-by-side on the
sixth rank, so to speak, and the King would like to move
sideways, but is blocked by his own man. The trick is to
(almost) never place the Knight on that sixth rank, where
it may interfere, but instead, hop it back and forth along
the fifth and seventh ranks -- defended by the King and
thus immune to capture, but never clumsily getting in his
way.

Apart from that lesson, there remains the issue of
letting the enemy King "get away", whereupon one draws
closer and closer to the fifty moves draw limit. This is
something which sets this ending apart from, say, KR
vs. K, where the enemy King never just slips out of the
net.

-- help bot

Date: 01 Jul 2007 09:59:25
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

Chess One wrote:

> In a conversation last winter I was telling another player that I can't
> remember which corner you have to corral the king into to mate it, and every
> time I read about this KBN v K ending, I have to figure out the mate, and
> then which corner is the right one. But also, in 40 to 45 years of playing a
> lot of chess, I never encountered it. "Neither have I" said this other
> player, who has won a couple of state championships, and is a v active ICC
> blitz player.
>
> Has [laugh] anybody? I mean, in their entire chess-life, has the KBN v K
> situation ever come about? More than once?

This ending would be rather rare, but for one thing:
many players cannot win it, so when losing, there is
a possibility of "steering toward" this deliberately, in
some situations. A player who is a piece or more
ahead may not even consider the possibility of some
sacrifice which, although perhaps losing material,
leaves him with no pawns remaining with which to
obtain a Queen -- the piece even most patzers are
well acquainted with using to mop up the won game.

A truly rare ending is that where one player has two
Knights and must blockade the opponent's pawn in
order to win. I can't recall this ever coming up in my
games, but as for KBN vs. K, it has happened once
or twice in my games, and I have seen several others
where the poor patzers are unable to win, or else have
no clue how to try and draw. Some even agree to a
draw immediately without bothering to try and win, in
order to avoid embarrassment and the inevitable
hecklers who swarm about afterwards to show how
"easy" it is. (Of course, these are the ones who have
just finished studying this very ending.)

-- help bot

Date: 01 Jul 2007 10:45:39
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

Date: 01 Jul 2007 08:36:58
From: Richard
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

No, I've never seen it, but I'm not the most experienced player. As I
recall from reading Pandolfini's Endgame Course, though I probably
couldn't complete this mate if I had to and the position was more than
a couple of moves from mate, you need to push the king to a corner
square that matches the color your bishop is traveling on. So with a
light squared bishop, push the king to a8 or h1, and with a dark
squared bishop, push the king to a1 or h8.

--Richard

Date: 01 Jul 2007 14:33:09
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Frequency of KBN v K ending

On Jul 1, 5:57 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:

> Has [laugh] anybody? I mean, in their entire chess-life, has the KBN v K
> situation ever come about? More than once?

Yes, it has happened 3 times to me, all when I was young and rated
1800-2000. The first time I couldn't win it. After that I didn't make
the mistake again.

But yes, it will "never happen" to most people as usually in such
material imbalances, "other things" happen first. You learn it not so
much because it will come up in a future game; but because it will
help you learn how to use B+N in a variety of settings. Also how to
mate - this sounds silly, but how many of us have sacrificed in a game
and had "check, check, check" but then allow the King to escape? It
has happened to me, and the discipline you learn from that ending
helps you in finding "quiet moves" in mating sequences......

With Nalimov, it is a very easy thing to study - just place any B+N+K
vs K you want into the online database and follow the best moves.
After 15-20 minutes of study you will know all you need to know.