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Main
Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:57:35
From: William Hyde
Subject: How did Tal survive WWII?
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This question arose the other day in conversation with some historians
of the second world war. The survival rate for Jews in Latvia was
quite low, yet Tal and at least two members of his family (mother and
elder brother) survived.
It is possible that they evacuated in time, but the Oxford companion
to chess has Tal joining the Riga Young Pioneers in 1944, which would
be not that long after the Nazis had been driven out. I think, but am
not sure, that relocated families generally didn't get home that
soon. The other strategy would be to hide in Riga or some other place
in Latvia itself.
The war cost us Junge, nearly cost us Kortchnoi, how close did we come
to losing Tal, as well?
William Hyde
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Date: 06 Jan 2009 19:17:56
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 6, 6:55 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Jan 6, 7:05 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > They were not the first rate chess stars--however David Przepi=F3rka =
was
> > > among them. Nevertheless they were strong enough to beat occasionally
> > > players like Rubinstein or Bogoliubov, to place near the top of the
> > > international tournaments, and to have to their credit plus scores
> > > from chess Olympiads.
>
> > Dawid Przepi=F3rka
>
> > ("w", not "v" -- I can't believe I've typed "v" :-)
>
> How is this name pronouced in English?
>
> We don't have anything to go by, as "prz" is
> a freak combination here.
It's "psh". Polish is pragmatic pronounciation wise.
The combination "rz" alone is a hard sound (virtually
not known to English but common in other languages).
However, when it follows for instace "p" then it would
be unnatural to pronounce it hard, hence it is pronounced
like Polish combination "sz" which is similar to English
"sh" (also Polish "cz" is similar to English "ch").
There are differences though, because what is important
sound wise in Polish is not in English, and vice versa.
Thus, depending on the circumstances, English "sh" can
be dry like Polish "sz" or wet like Polish " s' " (can
you see " =B6 " -- which is "s" with an accent above it).
To you it's all the same, while to those who don't know
English it can be a confusing distraction. In our childhood
our brains train themselves not to pay any attention
to the difference between certain sounds in the context
of speech, so that later it is hard to learn another
language. Of course it's all individual, there are
different individual proportions.
> I (barely) recall a
> fellow who played here many years ago, whose
> name was Tom Przsbylski-- or something like
> that;
Tomasz Przybylski.
> he is not currently listed by the USCF.
Now you're telling me!
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 06 Jan 2009 18:55:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 6, 7:05=A0pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> > They were not the first rate chess stars--however David Przepi=F3rka wa=
s
> > among them. Nevertheless they were strong enough to beat occasionally
> > players like Rubinstein or Bogoliubov, to place near the top of the
> > international tournaments, and to have to their credit plus scores
> > from chess Olympiads.
>
> Dawid Przepi=F3rka
>
> ("w", not "v" -- I can't believe I've typed "v" :-)
How is this name pronouced in English?
We don't have anything to go by, as "prz" is
a freak combination here. I (barely) recall a
fellow who played here many years ago, whose
name was Tom Przsbylski-- or something like
that; he is not currently listed by the USCF.
-- help bot
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Date: 06 Jan 2009 16:05:17
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 5, 12:50 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> They were not the first rate chess stars--however David Przepi=F3rka was
> among them. Nevertheless they were strong enough to beat occasionally
> players like Rubinstein or Bogoliubov, to place near the top of the
> international tournaments, and to have to their credit plus scores
> from chess Olympiads.
Dawid Przepi=F3rka
("w", not "v" -- I can't believe I've typed "v" :-)
Regards,
W=B3od
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Date: 06 Jan 2009 16:01:27
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 6, 1:23 pm, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> ...Annoying Israel is NOT a good idea.
> What they send over wil be sent
> back with interest.
It's not about "annoying" but about the recognition of Jews,
of their right to exist. It's about attempts, all too
often successful, to kill Jews indiscriminately, just
for being Jews. No, it's not about "annoying". It's about
terrorists who raise children not to be engineers,
scientists, doctors, artists... but to irrationally hate
and kill others. Etc. etc. It's not about "annoying".
It's also about the so-called "liberals", "rightists",
"leftists", ... who use the plight of Palestinians
to release their prejudice and hatred against Jews
(some of it even fueled by terrorist money). They too,
with their double standard and hypocritical fake support
of the "cause", are responsible for the suffering of the
people in Mid-East, Jews and Arabs alike.
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 06 Jan 2009 13:23:37
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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...Annoying Israel is NOT a good idea. What they send over wil be sent
back with interest.
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Date: 05 Jan 2009 12:50:48
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31 2008, 11:57 am, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> The war cost us Junge, nearly cost us Kortchnoi, how close did we come
> to losing Tal, as well?
>
> William Hyde
Several Polish Jews, who played strong chess perished in Nazi
concentration camps and ghettos. Some were even handed to Nazi by
France. You may check the list of chess players:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_players
for those who were born in Poland and died during the 1939-1945 years.
They were not the first rate chess stars--however David Przepi=F3rka was
among them. Nevertheless they were strong enough to beat occasionally
players like Rubinstein or Bogoliubov, to place near the top of the
international tournaments, and to have to their credit plus scores
from chess olympiads.
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 02 Jan 2009 09:00:46
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 1, 3:53=A0pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> Not 2M but 3M. Again and again this ugly,
> insensitive, demeaning language "strip"
> like we were talking not about human lives
> but about potatoes. Reuters does it all the time
> when it reports about Mid-East events, to falsify
> & twist & turn the information against Israel and
> Jews. No, Reuters will not hire you, despite your
> propagandistic willingness - you're too stupid
> even for them. =A0They are still uglier than you.
>
> > which can be controversially classified as
> > war victims, the total is then 3M.
>
> Well, you are as ugly as they. The stupid
> part still stays.
What a fool you are. You did not provide any link to your cite, but
claim to be authoratative. Go to Wikipedia and learn something
idiot. First, it's not clear that Polish Jews are western Jews at
all. Second, if you strip out the number of Polish Jews (yes, the
word is strip, EFL fool) --which you claim is 3M but I said was 2M--
then you get a number closer to 2M holocaust victims.
Just like I said, and as you admitted.
Goodbye fool!
RL
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 13:31:53
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 1, 6:32=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> http://www.li.lv/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D99&Itemi=
d=3D468
>
> =ABWhen the German army made a sudden incursion into Latvia in June
> 1941, only 15,000 Jews managed to escape deportation to the USSR. The
> majority remained in Latvia and died in the Holocaust. Approximately
> 5,000 Latvian Jews fought in the Soviet army against Nazism; 2,000 of
> them died in battle. In 1944 and 1945 approximately 14,000 Jews from
> the East and West returned to Latvia. It was extremely difficult for
> them to resume their lives since their homes were occupied by
> strangers and thousands of their murdered relatives lay in mass
> graves.=BB
>
> I may have misunderstood but the first 2 sentences seems to contain a
> paradox: 15 000 "managed to escape deportation" and therefore "died in
> the holocaust".
I found the numbers to be rather mixed-up, or
confusing at best. Also note the peculiar way
in which things are phrased: the Soviets are
said to have been fighting, not against an
unwanted invasion of their homeland, but
against Naziism itself; why then, did they wait
until after being invaded to attack? Even the
British did not fight against Naziism itself, but
merely reacted when the Germans invaded
other countries. So then, it seems that
fighting Naziism itself was not the idea, but
rather, the idea was to stop Germany from
taking over the whole world by the use of
force. By the same token, we rarely see
any of the super-powers declare war on
those Pacific islands which practice
cannibalism; we wait for them to attack us
first.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 12:53:35
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 1, 11:43 am, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 31 2008, 11:00 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Dec 31, 5:48 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Your ignorance and stupidity is something
> > else. Sanny should hire you as his programmer
> > and public relations asshole.
>
> Why did your tenor change when in your previous message you were so
> scientific? Perhaps you accidentally hit the Enter key? Do I get a
> Happy New Year, azz whole?
>
> And the 6 M figure is too high,
Figure 5.9...M was carefully verified several times
by Westerners, and it is on the conservative side
(it's a lower bound). On the other hand the figure of
Polish (including Polish Jews) victims was verified
down from 6M to under 5M -- the number of Polish victims,
who didn't die as Jews was lowered from 3M to just
under 2M, while the figure of Polish Jews still stayed
verified at 3M. Of over 3M pre-WWII Polish Jews, all
were murdered by Germans during WWI
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 11:43:30
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31 2008, 11:00=A0pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 31, 5:48 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Your ignorance and stupidity is something
> else. Sanny should hire you as his programmer
> and public relations asshole.
>
Why did your tenor change when in your previous message you were so
scientific? Perhaps you accidentally hit the Enter key? Do I get a
Happy New Year, azz whole?
And the 6 M figure is too high, which is an estimate from Soviet
souces. Stalin is hardly reliable. A more sober estimate is 5
million, and if you strip out the 2M Polish Jews, which can be
controversially classified as war victims, the total is then 3M. In
Armenia during WWII about 1-2M died in forced relocation efforts (that
most people don't even consider a holocaust), and it's been found that
killing 2M people is a lot of work (Pol Pol reached maybe that
number).
So revise your number down please. And quit using obscenities.
RL (yes, I'm Jewish)
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 07:27:25
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Jan 1, 6:32=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> http://www.li.lv/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D99&Itemi=
d=3D468
>
> =ABWhen the German army made a sudden incursion into Latvia in June
> 1941, only 15,000 Jews managed to escape deportation to the USSR. The
> majority remained in Latvia and died in the Holocaust. Approximately
> 5,000 Latvian Jews fought in the Soviet army against Nazism; 2,000 of
> them died in battle. In 1944 and 1945 approximately 14,000 Jews from
> the East and West returned to Latvia. It was extremely difficult for
> them to resume their lives since their homes were occupied by
> strangers and thousands of their murdered relatives lay in mass
> graves.=BB
>
> I may have misunderstood but the first 2 sentences seems to contain a
> paradox: 15 000 "managed to escape deportation" and therefore "died in
> the holocaust".
It is badly written, but it makes more sense if you include an
earlier sentence:
"Already in 1940 many Jews began to experience the devastating
effects of the Soviet occupation. Their private property was
expropriated, their civic and religious societies shut down. In the
mass deportations of June 1941, about 5,000 Jews were transported to
the USSR, where most of them perished."
The writer seems to be saying that Latvian Jews suffered greatly
under both the Soviets and the Nazis. Those who were not forcibly
deported by the commissars (to what fate is not made clear; forced
labor perhaps) soon fell into the hands of the Einsatzgruppenf=FChrer.
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Date: 01 Jan 2009 03:32:13
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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http://www.li.lv/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D99&Itemid=
=3D468
=ABWhen the German army made a sudden incursion into Latvia in June
1941, only 15,000 Jews managed to escape deportation to the USSR. The
majority remained in Latvia and died in the Holocaust. Approximately
5,000 Latvian Jews fought in the Soviet army against Nazism; 2,000 of
them died in battle. In 1944 and 1945 approximately 14,000 Jews from
the East and West returned to Latvia. It was extremely difficult for
them to resume their lives since their homes were occupied by
strangers and thousands of their murdered relatives lay in mass
graves.=BB
I may have misunderstood but the first 2 sentences seems to contain a
paradox: 15 000 "managed to escape deportation" and therefore "died in
the holocaust".
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 22:49:05
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31, 9:40 pm, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> Can I just add that Tals would have been doubly at risk.
> I am sure he would have qualified as 'disabled' owing to
> his two-fingered left hand.
I think that his hand was deformed,
so that two fingers were overly prominent,
perhaps at the expense of the remaining ones.
The deformity was a result of kidney malfunctioning.
Koblentz wrote that at the time when Tal
was already an active member of his local
pioneer chess club that he enjoed playing
gran-piano ("royal"). Tal's favorite composers
were Chopin and Chaykovsky (Tchaykovsky). But it's
not clear from Koblentz's statement if Tal actually
played pieces by Chopin and Chaykovsky. Also, Tal
played goalie for his school class soccer team.
Perhaps his left hand was not affected yet
during WWII.
Happy New Year,
Wlod
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 21:40:24
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31 2008, 7:57=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> This question arose the other day in conversation with some historians
> of the second world war. =A0The survival rate for Jews in Latvia was
> quite low, yet Tal and at least two members of his family (mother and
> elder brother) survived.
>
> It is possible that they evacuated in time, but the Oxford companion
> to chess has Tal joining the Riga Young Pioneers in 1944, which would
> be not that long after the Nazis had been driven out. =A0I think, but am
> not sure, that relocated families generally =A0didn't get home that
> soon. =A0The other strategy would be to hide in Riga or some other place
> in Latvia itself.
>
> The war cost us Junge, nearly cost us Kortchnoi, how close did we come
> to losing Tal, as well?
>
> William Hyde
Can I just add that Tals would have been doubly at risk.
I am sure he would have qualified as 'disabled' owing to his two-
fingered left hand.
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 20:23:26
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31, 1:45 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> You raise an interesting question, Bill,
> which none of my sources can answer. [...]
> I've checked Soltis' "Soviet Chess 1917-1991,"
> the Tal entry in the Winter-edited "World
> Chess Champions," Cafferty & Taimanov's
> "The Soviet Championships," Hartston's
> "Kings of Chess," plus various encyclopedias,
> and none say much about Tal's youth.
> Part II of Kasparov's "My Great Predecessors"
> has a bit more, but still nothing about wartime
> survival. I don't have any bios specifically
> about Tal; perhaps a reader who does can tell
> us?
Koblentz's in his book about Tal,
and Tal's own autobiographical book
both have nothing about early Tal's
years, pre-chess. This is not an accident.
It is along the Soviet policy and customs
(including most everybody's adaptation
to Soviet reality).
Happy New Year, Taylor, and everybody!
Wlod
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 20:16:05
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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On Dec 31, 2:51 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> I know a guy from Baku [not Garry]
Garry who?
Phil, Happy New Year! and everybody!
Wlod
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 20:00:38
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
|
On Dec 31, 5:48 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Look at all the Jewish scientists who made it out:
"made it out"? What kind of garbage language
is it?
> Einstein, Bohr, and others.
Your ignorance and stupidity is something
else. Sanny should hire you as his programmer
and public relations asshole.
Wlod
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 19:57:45
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
|
On Dec 31, 5:48 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> Many Jews survived the holocaust.
This, sadly, is totally untrue in the
case of the three Baltic countries
Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia. In fact,
very few survived.
> In fact I would intuit most. Only
> certain cities--Salonika, Greece comes
> to mind--were completely wiped
> out of Jews.
I remember articles about at least
two Gettos in Baltic countries, where
from a population of about 100K in
one case there were under twenty surbivors,
in the other case a couple hundred.
It says something about the world that
while 6M is idiotucally but persistently
questioned, in fact it does not even include
the Soviet Jews who were victims of Hitler
Germans during WWII (I remember a cautious
estimate of 1.9M, but most likely this
is a low estimate).
In the Eastern Europe whole lively Jewish
villages and towns, with their newspapers,
theaters, etc., were wiped out completely.
Well, it's all in the past, life goes on.
Wlod
> Look at all the Jewish scientists who made it out: Einstein, Bohr, and
> others. In fact, in most wars "only" about 10 to 20% of the
> population is wiped out.
>
> RL
>
> On Dec 31, 4:45 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected]> wrote:
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 17:48:58
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
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Many Jews survived the holocaust. In fact I would intuit most. Only
certain cities--Salonika, Greece comes to mind--were completely wiped
out of Jews.
Look at all the Jewish scientists who made it out: Einstein, Bohr, and
others. In fact, in most wars "only" about 10 to 20% of the
population is wiped out.
RL
On Dec 31, 4:45=A0pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 14:51:09
From:
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
|
On Dec 31, 4:45=A0pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 31, 2:57=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > This question arose the other day in conversation with some historians
> > of the second world war. =A0The survival rate for Jews in Latvia was
> > quite low, yet Tal and at least two members of his family (mother and
> > elder brother) survived.
>
> > It is possible that they evacuated in time, but the Oxford companion
> > to chess has Tal joining the Riga Young Pioneers in 1944, which would
> > be not that long after the Nazis had been driven out. =A0I think, but a=
m
> > not sure, that relocated families generally =A0didn't get home that
> > soon. =A0The other strategy would be to hide in Riga or some other plac=
e
> > in Latvia itself.
>
> > The war cost us Junge, nearly cost us Kortchnoi, how close did we come
> > to losing Tal, as well?
>
> > William Hyde
>
> =A0 You raise an interesting question, Bill, which none of my sources
> can answer. Born in 1936, he would have been around age 5 to 9 during
> the years Germany was at war with the USSR. I've checked Soltis'
> "Soviet Chess 1917-1991," the Tal entry in the Winter-edited "World
> Chess Champions," Cafferty & Taimanov's "The Soviet Championships,"
> Hartston's "Kings of Chess," plus various encyclopedias, and none say
> much about Tal's youth. Part II of Kasparov's "My Great Predecessors"
> has a bit more, but still nothing about wartime survival. I don't have
> any bios specifically about Tal; perhaps a reader who does can tell
> us?
His name is Latvian is Mihais Tahls. And he is an 'adopted' Russian,
which may, may not be sufficient explanation to your question. I know
a guy from Baku [not Garry] who might know.
Phil Innes
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 13:45:25
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: How did Tal survive WWII?
|
On Dec 31, 2:57=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> This question arose the other day in conversation with some historians
> of the second world war. =A0The survival rate for Jews in Latvia was
> quite low, yet Tal and at least two members of his family (mother and
> elder brother) survived.
>
> It is possible that they evacuated in time, but the Oxford companion
> to chess has Tal joining the Riga Young Pioneers in 1944, which would
> be not that long after the Nazis had been driven out. =A0I think, but am
> not sure, that relocated families generally =A0didn't get home that
> soon. =A0The other strategy would be to hide in Riga or some other place
> in Latvia itself.
>
> The war cost us Junge, nearly cost us Kortchnoi, how close did we come
> to losing Tal, as well?
>
> William Hyde
You raise an interesting question, Bill, which none of my sources
can answer. Born in 1936, he would have been around age 5 to 9 during
the years Germany was at war with the USSR. I've checked Soltis'
"Soviet Chess 1917-1991," the Tal entry in the Winter-edited "World
Chess Champions," Cafferty & Taimanov's "The Soviet Championships,"
Hartston's "Kings of Chess," plus various encyclopedias, and none say
much about Tal's youth. Part II of Kasparov's "My Great Predecessors"
has a bit more, but still nothing about wartime survival. I don't have
any bios specifically about Tal; perhaps a reader who does can tell
us?
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