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Main
Date: 25 Sep 2007 10:56:01
From: Chess One
Subject: If you must meet Arnold Denker
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This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
(9/23) Chessville Vignettes: If You Must Meet Arnold Denker, a remembrance
by Larry Parr. Denker, former US Champion, and once among the top-20
players in the world, about whom Al Horowitz once wrote, "He can handle an
attack with a fertility of ideas and richness of imagination that are rare."
full article: http://www.chessville.com:80/misc/History/vignettes/Denker.htm
Denker,A - Feit,H
New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
Note the date above, and also this one:
"in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
Brava!
Phil Innes
Chessville's Honorable Spam Director
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 10:23:52
From: Rob
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
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On Oct 2, 10:05 pm, help bot <nomorech...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 2, 6:49 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > notes: 'Muricanis not a universal language, English is, and because it takes
> > words from other languages to incorporate them. Now, America has invented
> > many things, but English invented the computer medium where you now read
> > this, and the English invented English.
>
> Languages are not "invented" like an electric light bulb,
> they are developed or derived and they evolve from earlier
> languages.
>
> IMO, it is silly to credit any people for the development
> of their native language; this is like crediting cows for
> inventing mooing; like crediting birds for having invented
> the chirp; like crediting lions for the roar, fish for swimming,
> Damiano for 2. ...f6. Here's the litmus test: it is said that
> there are more people in China who speak English than in
> the USA -- so then, what dialect do all these Chinese
> speak: British, Australian, American, or (so solly), their
> very own?
> When I was a very young bot, we had an old (even then)
> dictionary of titanic proportions which showed in the front
> cover how English was derived from other languages, most
> notably perhaps, Germanic languages. Example: our days
> of the week are named for Norse gods like Tiu, Woden, Thor,
> and Frigga (that's half female, half male, amazingly). Of
> course, none of that fits in nicely with IM Innes and his need
> to grab the credit for any and everything for his homeland
> (not Vermont! His imaginary homeland, G.B. or Ireland,
> depending on whim).
You didn't tell us where the others days came from. I think some are
of Celtic origin, yes?
> At any rate, the idea was to talk about something (anything,
> really) other than the yet-another-stupid-blunder by IM Innes
> in the realm of language, which he pretends to know all about.
> So you can see, we have succeeded. Red herrings work, and
> we Americans know this because *we* perfected them.
>
> -- help bot
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Date: 30 Sep 2007 09:09:39
From: parrthenon@cs.com
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
MONKEYSHINES
<I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
do not have such a quote, then he must have won. > -- Help Bot
Dear Phil,
I go down to Singapore for a few days, and I
return to find Greg Kennedy writing something strange.
What happened?
No time to go to the Singapore Zoo this time
around. I wanted to see whether "G. Kennedy," one of
the breakfast monkeys, was still at his morning table.
The "G." did not stand for Greg, and my
understanding is that the monkey was possibly
delighted so to learn.
Chess One wrote:
> "help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190931117.473182.19270@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 27, 6:26 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Look here bot - when the Wikipedia Blair-action started, these Vignettes
> >> were a good way to rescue material - amended or not - and kept from
> >> destruction.
> >
> > I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
> > Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
> > Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
> > do not have such a quote, then he must have won.
>
> Blair won. That is, he eliminated all Sloan's posts, the good the bad and
> the ugly. Nothing in those posts were 'moderated', they were destroyed. With
> perfect poetic justice Rob Mitchell called this practice into question, not
> only because it was behind-your-back destructive behavior, but because he
> was about to become a 'moderator' at USCF. As we see, this word is a
> euphemism for 'destructor', its all or nothing.
>
> Mitchell's reward arrived 4 weeks later, when he changed his focus from this
> pro-Sloan attention, to asking why Sloan seemed to break the HIPPA law by
> mentioning staff medical conditions; why "Sam Sloan" was not using his legal
> name on ballots; and if he understood that some scholastic parents would
> find his personal web-site offensive.
>
> For these 'attacks' the same Rob Mitchell was banned from Sloan-ville as an
> 'inconnux', which in 'Murican means of pretended uncertain identity, by
> Defendent & Prosecutor & Judge & Jury-Sloan, who played all the parts in his
> own dramatic production.
>
> This presumably is the same person as Coward Sloan, who protests so much
> about what he can say in other forums, and how fair they are to his point of
> view. <snigger>
>
> >> At the time there were very many opinions about the quality of writing et
> >> cetera - and I responded then as now, 'shut up and show us' if you're so
> >> smart. Get it?
> >
> > What I "get" is that some folks are not psychologically
> > equipped to own their own mistakes. They stand in the
> > kitchen, and whine that it's too hot.
>
> You are doing the whining guy. How much more can you cavil over a typo? Just
> as I recommended you to play chess rather than mouth off about those who do,
> try to write something if you want any critique of your own to be, shall we
> say, manly?
>
> >> > Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
> >> > think they owned us or something, like a colony.
> >>
> >> That's what the native americans said, no? To them it was just soldiers
> >> and
> >> more soldiers.
> >
> > Here's a snippet: "Rattlesnake Cliffs? That sounds like
> > someplace *nobody* would want to live." -- Chief Fat Bull
> >
> > "It's either that, or more blankets laced with small pox."
> > -- Col. Indyangiver
>
> A poor fable. It is highly unlikely that Americans ever supplied smallpox
> blankets to natives. It is certain that some Brits did, including the bloody
> awful Amherst, whose reward was to have a town named after him. That man was
> a genocidal maniac.
>
> Roll over Emily Dickenson!
>
> ---
>
> >> I see you have made a useful contribution in this thread,
> >> which was to spot the typo. We also spotted it at the same time, and
> >> corrected it promptly.
> >
> > That was not exactly a typo. It looks to be an error
> > in translating from the old style descriptive notation
> > to the new, algebraic.
>
> Sure.
>
> > You see, in descriptive the
> > move "B-R6" is a tad ambiguous, unless you have
> > your bearings and know exactly who is on the move,
> > what his legal moves are, etc. It's a lot easier for me,
> > being a chess genius you know, than it would be for
> > a weaker player.
> >
> >
> >> For someone with such a lot to say you might want to try your own fist at
> >> writing a Vignette.
> >
> > Okay, so what exactly is a Vignette?
>
> A short biographical essay in the style of an anecdote. If you write to
> Chessville then we will have 2 Kennedys with us. Find the Vignettes page and
> contact its editor, which is not me.
>
> > I had a
> > Velocette once; damed unreliable piece of junk...
> > I got rid of the contraption, and bought a Honda.
> > Rode it all over.
>
> That Indian gal had two scooters which is why she is called Pocahondas.
>
> Relatively-Big Chief Sitting Chess
>
> > -- help bot
> >
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| | |
Date: 30 Sep 2007 16:44:04
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
<parrthenon@cs.com > wrote in message
news:1191168579.609410.109650@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> MONKEYSHINES
>
> <I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
> Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
> Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
> do not have such a quote, then he must have won.> -- Help Bot
>
> Dear Phil,
>
> I go down to Singapore for a few days,
Dear Lawrence H.
That sounds like a little ditty missing the second line, and corresponding
couplet. A suggestion, nothing more, would be
I go down to Singapore for a few days
Smog is smog, and haze is haze!
Better fit* I took myself off to Calais**
Anywhere at all, catch me some rays.***
*Cornish term, circa 1955
**Kentman-speak, current ['Calaze']
***Californian term, circa 1970
> and I
> return to find Greg Kennedy writing something strange.
> What happened?
Short-term memory loss has set in, such that he frequently admits forgetting
the names of the objects. Reassuringly [?] long-term patterns assert
themselves, so that we know we have no imposter here!; ie, good at chess is
bad, just look at Kasparov, Fischer, Keene, Evans, and et cetera.
> No time to go to the Singapore Zoo this time
> around. I wanted to see whether "G. Kennedy," one of
> the breakfast monkeys, was still at his morning table.
Our Gregory will take this ill, and also my 'conspiration' with you, proving
beyond a doubt various random facts which occur to him. [You don't suppose
it is 'Georg', do you? it would explain nothing, but there isn't much there
to explain, if you follow me, therefore, less is more.]
> The "G." did not stand for Greg, and my
> understanding is that the monkey was possibly
> delighted so to learn.
Let me take your bestiary as an interesting instance of subconscious memory
of definition of 1 below? There are few stems of older English words
begining Greg~ and here are a couple or actually 2.5 of them;
GREGAL: Belonging to a flock, familiar. See Topsell's Beasts, p. 719
GREGORIAN: a wig, or head of false hair of a peculiar kind, said to have
been invented by one Gregory, a barber in the Strand, in the seventeenth
century.
GREGORIES: a species of narcissus.
GREGS: wide loose breeches. See Cotgrave in v. Chausse, Grecques, Gregues.
and a GREGORIAN-TREE: is the gallows [Grose].
Presumably your simian breakfaster was called George or [if a Welsh monkey]
even Garreth? I should doubt Geronimo.
Cordially, Phil
>
> Chess One wrote:
>> "help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190931117.473182.19270@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Sep 27, 6:26 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Look here bot - when the Wikipedia Blair-action started, these
>> >> Vignettes
>> >> were a good way to rescue material - amended or not - and kept from
>> >> destruction.
>> >
>> > I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
>> > Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
>> > Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
>> > do not have such a quote, then he must have won.
>>
>> Blair won. That is, he eliminated all Sloan's posts, the good the bad and
>> the ugly. Nothing in those posts were 'moderated', they were destroyed.
>> With
>> perfect poetic justice Rob Mitchell called this practice into question,
>> not
>> only because it was behind-your-back destructive behavior, but because he
>> was about to become a 'moderator' at USCF. As we see, this word is a
>> euphemism for 'destructor', its all or nothing.
>>
>> Mitchell's reward arrived 4 weeks later, when he changed his focus from
>> this
>> pro-Sloan attention, to asking why Sloan seemed to break the HIPPA law by
>> mentioning staff medical conditions; why "Sam Sloan" was not using his
>> legal
>> name on ballots; and if he understood that some scholastic parents would
>> find his personal web-site offensive.
>>
>> For these 'attacks' the same Rob Mitchell was banned from Sloan-ville as
>> an
>> 'inconnux', which in 'Murican means of pretended uncertain identity, by
>> Defendent & Prosecutor & Judge & Jury-Sloan, who played all the parts in
>> his
>> own dramatic production.
>>
>> This presumably is the same person as Coward Sloan, who protests so much
>> about what he can say in other forums, and how fair they are to his point
>> of
>> view. <snigger>
>>
>> >> At the time there were very many opinions about the quality of writing
>> >> et
>> >> cetera - and I responded then as now, 'shut up and show us' if you're
>> >> so
>> >> smart. Get it?
>> >
>> > What I "get" is that some folks are not psychologically
>> > equipped to own their own mistakes. They stand in the
>> > kitchen, and whine that it's too hot.
>>
>> You are doing the whining guy. How much more can you cavil over a typo?
>> Just
>> as I recommended you to play chess rather than mouth off about those who
>> do,
>> try to write something if you want any critique of your own to be, shall
>> we
>> say, manly?
>>
>> >> > Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
>> >> > think they owned us or something, like a colony.
>> >>
>> >> That's what the native americans said, no? To them it was just
>> >> soldiers
>> >> and
>> >> more soldiers.
>> >
>> > Here's a snippet: "Rattlesnake Cliffs? That sounds like
>> > someplace *nobody* would want to live." -- Chief Fat Bull
>> >
>> > "It's either that, or more blankets laced with small pox."
>> > -- Col. Indyangiver
>>
>> A poor fable. It is highly unlikely that Americans ever supplied smallpox
>> blankets to natives. It is certain that some Brits did, including the
>> bloody
>> awful Amherst, whose reward was to have a town named after him. That man
>> was
>> a genocidal maniac.
>>
>> Roll over Emily Dickenson!
>>
>> ---
>>
>> >> I see you have made a useful contribution in this thread,
>> >> which was to spot the typo. We also spotted it at the same time, and
>> >> corrected it promptly.
>> >
>> > That was not exactly a typo. It looks to be an error
>> > in translating from the old style descriptive notation
>> > to the new, algebraic.
>>
>> Sure.
>>
>> > You see, in descriptive the
>> > move "B-R6" is a tad ambiguous, unless you have
>> > your bearings and know exactly who is on the move,
>> > what his legal moves are, etc. It's a lot easier for me,
>> > being a chess genius you know, than it would be for
>> > a weaker player.
>> >
>> >
>> >> For someone with such a lot to say you might want to try your own fist
>> >> at
>> >> writing a Vignette.
>> >
>> > Okay, so what exactly is a Vignette?
>>
>> A short biographical essay in the style of an anecdote. If you write to
>> Chessville then we will have 2 Kennedys with us. Find the Vignettes page
>> and
>> contact its editor, which is not me.
>>
>> > I had a
>> > Velocette once; damed unreliable piece of junk...
>> > I got rid of the contraption, and bought a Honda.
>> > Rode it all over.
>>
>> That Indian gal had two scooters which is why she is called Pocahondas.
>>
>> Relatively-Big Chief Sitting Chess
>>
>> > -- help bot
>> >
>
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Date: 30 Sep 2007 07:55:11
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 5:05 pm, "parrthe...@cs.com" <parrthe...@cs.com > wrote:
> Speaking of Arnold's result in the 1995 U.S.
> Open, I gave his win (which is listed as a draw in my
> CL article) over Emmanuel Perez, rated 2388 at the
> time. Perez as Black grabbed the b-pawn, and we know
> the rest. Arnold made it look so easy, which we know
> it was not. I introduced that game with this comment:
> "A strong young master learned the octogenarians,
> bald and benevolent, bite."
Larry, I was already aware of Denker's rather uncritical admiration
for Campomanes and Ilyumzhi, and of course your disdain for them
(which I share), so it was not surprising that your article mentioned
how you and Denker were often at loggerheads on FIDE politics. I was
wondering if he ever finally changed his mind about either, or did he
continue to support them even after Campomanes' financial malfeasance
and Ilyumzhi's mismanagement and lunacy became obvious?
|
| |
Date: 30 Sep 2007 01:15:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 29, 6:06 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> > I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
> > Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
> > Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
> > do not have such a quote, then he must have won.
>
> Blair won. That is, he eliminated all Sloan's posts, the good the bad and
> the ugly. Nothing in those posts were 'moderated', they were destroyed. With
> perfect poetic justice Rob Mitchell called this practice into question, not
> only because it was behind-your-back destructive behavior, but because he
> was about to become a 'moderator' at USCF. As we see, this word is a
> euphemism for 'destructor', its all or nothing.
If Wiki allows Blairbots to "destroy" Sloans, then perhaps
you need to change Wiki (or else just accept it for what it is).
> Mitchell's reward arrived 4 weeks later, when he changed his focus from this
> pro-Sloan attention, to asking why Sloan seemed to break the HIPPA law by
> mentioning staff medical conditions;
Exploitation of Wiki bylaws is attacked as unfair when
practiced by a Blairbot; but when Rob Mitchell goes on a
tear, the rules are changed mid-game. (This is what I
mean by standing in the kitchen and whining about heat.
If you establish a "standard", then for god sake, stick to
it for more than a split-second, for once.)
> why "Sam Sloan" was not using his legal
> name on ballots;
Strange obsession with SS duly noted. I wonder how
Mr. Mitchell finds the time to obsess over Mr. Sloan,
when he has important business to attend to.
> and if he understood that some scholastic parents would
> find his personal web-site offensive.
Personally, I find it to be an indictment of the election
process that anyone with SS's, shall we say "credentials",
would be elected to the board. Any organization which
would have him as a director, I don't really want to be a
part of.
> For these 'attacks' the same Rob Mitchell was banned from Sloan-ville as an
> 'inconnux', which in 'Murican means of pretended uncertain identity
Ah, pretense; that rings a familiar bell. Just moments
ago, I recall reading complaints about SS's "legal name" --
a pretense to not know if he is really the dimwit who plays
the Damiano's, or an impostor.
> Defendent & Prosecutor & Judge & Jury-Sloan, who played all the parts in his
> own dramatic production.
>
> This presumably is the same person as Coward Sloan, who protests so much
> about what he can say in other forums, and how fair they are to his point of
> view. <snigger>
I have also noticed that Mr. Sloan has the very same
problem which plagues the Evans ratpack: double
standards.
SS likes to complain about unfairness when he is the
supposed victim, but then he also likes to attack any
and every body in sight, when it suits a whim. A recent
example would be the accusation that Paul Truong is
known to be the fake SS/JL/etc., when in fact SS himself
has written as though it might well be /either/ Mr. Truong
/or/ Susan Polgar. I might add that logic dictates the
possibility that the fake SS could possibly be one, while
the Jackass Laferty poster could be the other, or they
might even have taken turns, however unlikely this may
seem.
Mr. Sloan is very touchy when others accuse him, but
he is exceedingly quick on the draw when it comes to
accusing others. This sort of thing makes him out to be
a hypocritical ass.
> You are doing the whining guy. How much more can you cavil over a typo?
?? A "typo" is where you are typing, and your
finger misses a key, or hits the wrong one. This was
something different, something involving carelessness,
incompetence, or a little of both.
In my experience, a single such error is not unusual,
and I am not blasting LP's article; my earlier comments
were based on the game /as posted here/ by the
inimitable IM Innes. Obviously, every such error leads
to a diminished impression of Arnold Denker's skill, and
repeating the error again and again is not the way to go.
If one is going to give only one annotated game to
serve as proxy for AD's chess skill, then at least try to
get it right; stop the mindless repetition of what you want
to term a "typo", and give AD his due. BTW, the folks at
chessgames.com somehow got the moves right, despite
all the repeatedly published "typos". (Just hire a decent
player to proof your articles and this won't happen. All
too often I get the impression that such work is put upon
the writers' wives, or hapless secretary.)
> > Okay, so what exactly is a Vignette?
>
> A short biographical essay in the style of an anecdote. If you write to
> Chessville then we will have 2 Kennedys with us. Find the Vignettes page and
> contact its editor, which is not me.
I have no "biographical anecdotes" of famous chess
personalities. Fritz and I mainly critique bad moves
and blundering, while sometimes providing deep insights
into things like blatant hypocrisy, a missed mate-in-two,
or elementary logic. One recent example can be seen
in the thread regarding the recent Rybka/Zappa match,
where GM Suba stated that he largely agreed with my
(admittedly longwinded) comments.
As noted in ad hominem attacks on Neil Brennan, a
lot of people are not much interested in local heroes or
local, backwoods chess tournaments, but prefer to read
about and discuss the big, internationally famous GMs.
So what you need are anecdotes from other GMs -- the
guys who went and played in the big tourneys. But I
should warn that in many cases, these people are long
on ego and very short on fuse, and they expect to be
well paid for any sort of "work". Thus, IMO, you might
be better served by lesser known folk, who just happen
to be willing to work for free and because they are not
(yet) bloated, may even do a better job of it.
The problem right now is that everyone still obsesses
over Bobby Fischer, yet his actions necessitate profuse
apologetics. Possibly GM Anand would make a decent
subject; at least we have a change of pace, for he is not
"just another Russian".
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 25 Sep 2007 19:07:09
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
Chess One wrote:
>
> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> Brava!
>
Is that Andean?
--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
|
| | |
Date: 01 Oct 2007 22:21:24
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
Kenneth Sloan <KennethRSloan@gmail.com > wrote:
> Chess One wrote:
>> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>>
>> Brava!
>
> Is that Andean?
No, it's Italian. But only when you're applauding a woman.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Solar-Powered Ghost
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ (TM): it's like a haunting spirit but
it doesn't work in the dark and it's
perfect for your grandparents!
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:49:43
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
"David Richerby" <davidr@chiark.greenend.org.uk > wrote in message
news:q6x*1KfWr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Kenneth Sloan <KennethRSloan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Chess One wrote:
>>> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>>>
>>> Brava!
>>
>> Is that Andean?
>
> No, it's Italian. But only when you're applauding a woman.
like L'Opera at La Scala
notes: 'Muricanis not a universal language, English is, and because it takes
words from other languages to incorporate them. Now, America has invented
many things, but English invented the computer medium where you now read
this, and the English invented English.
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Old-Fashioned Solar-Powered Ghost
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ (TM): it's like a haunting spirit
> but
> it doesn't work in the dark and
> it's
> perfect for your grandparents!
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Oct 2007 21:21:12
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
David Richerby wrote:
> Kenneth Sloan <KennethRSloan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Chess One wrote:
>>> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>>>
>>> Brava!
>> Is that Andean?
>
> No, it's Italian. But only when you're applauding a woman.
>
Arnold was a woman?
--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Oct 2007 07:40:11
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
The Arnold Denker I remember from the Manhattan CC in the 1950s was
arrogant, conceited, all too self-important, and unfriendly to those who
didn't belong to his generation. He got his comeuppance one day in a
Manhattan Championship game against a young Reuben Klugman, a strong amateur
player. A time scramble ensued as the end of their game was nearing. The
position was equal, and after making a move Klugman offered a draw. Denker
was disdainful, and as he blitzed off his move shouting "check, check," he
added, "No draw, sonny, this game is for the money."
There was no check. Klugman had moved his king off its original square
during the earlier complications and Denker was checking a phantom king. As
Klugman removed Denker's queen, which he had attacked on his previous move,
he had the great pleasure of saying, "Sorry, boss, but you just left your
money en prise."
How happy I was to have witnessed this!
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
/
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Oct 2007 10:06:33
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
Ian Burton wrote:
> The Arnold Denker I remember from the Manhattan CC in the 1950s was
> arrogant, conceited, all too self-important, and unfriendly to those who
> didn't belong to his generation. He got his comeuppance one day in a
> Manhattan Championship game against a young Reuben Klugman, a strong amateur
> player. A time scramble ensued as the end of their game was nearing. The
> position was equal, and after making a move Klugman offered a draw. Denker
> was disdainful, and as he blitzed off his move shouting "check, check," he
> added, "No draw, sonny, this game is for the money."
>
> There was no check. Klugman had moved his king off its original square
> during the earlier complications and Denker was checking a phantom king. As
> Klugman removed Denker's queen, which he had attacked on his previous move,
> he had the great pleasure of saying, "Sorry, boss, but you just left your
> money en prise."
>
> How happy I was to have witnessed this!
>
I look forward to relating a similar posthumous anecdote about you.
--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
|
| |
Date: 27 Sep 2007 15:11:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 27, 6:26 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
>
> Look here bot - when the Wikipedia Blair-action started, these Vignettes
> were a good way to rescue material - amended or not - and kept from
> destruction.
I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
do not have such a quote, then he must have won.
> At the time there were very many opinions about the quality of writing et
> cetera - and I responded then as now, 'shut up and show us' if you're so
> smart. Get it?
What I "get" is that some folks are not psychologically
equipped to own their own mistakes. They stand in the
kitchen, and whine that it's too hot.
> > Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
> > think they owned us or something, like a colony.
>
> That's what the native americans said, no? To them it was just soldiers and
> more soldiers.
Here's a snippet: "Rattlesnake Cliffs? That sounds like
someplace *nobody* would want to live." -- Chief Fat Bull
"It's either that, or more blankets laced with small pox."
-- Col. Indyangiver
> > Ah, the apple does not fall far from the tree. Learned
> > how to talk from her old man, I see.
>
> You may not be aware, but navy folk often talk a bit 'rough', though I
> forgive you for not being able to hear them from the cornfields.
Have you never heard an Iowan corn farmer cuss at his
mule for refusing to budge in the noonday sun? Many a
stubborn mule has had to be buried (or eaten).
> > Chess can be a strenuous game, and not only is it
> > tougher to recall things as you get older, but the clock
> > seems to speed up on you as well.
>
> Does it though?
That depends. I played a fellow once or twice who had
this special clock, where one side -- which he always
placed toward his opponent, ran three times faster than
his side. They say there are nice guys and tough players,
and with this clock, he was a very tough player.
> I see you have made a useful contribution in this thread,
> which was to spot the typo. We also spotted it at the same time, and
> corrected it promptly.
That was not exactly a typo. It looks to be an error
in translating from the old style descriptive notation
to the new, algebraic. You see, in descriptive the
move "B-R6" is a tad ambiguous, unless you have
your bearings and know exactly who is on the move,
what his legal moves are, etc. It's a lot easier for me,
being a chess genius you know, than it would be for
a weaker player.
> For someone with such a lot to say you might want to try your own fist at
> writing a Vignette.
Okay, so what exactly is a Vignette? I had a
Velocette once; damed unreliable piece of junk...
I got rid of the contraption, and bought a Honda.
Rode it all over.
-- help bot
|
| | |
Date: 29 Sep 2007 11:06:45
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
"help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1190931117.473182.19270@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 6:26 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Look here bot - when the Wikipedia Blair-action started, these Vignettes
>> were a good way to rescue material - amended or not - and kept from
>> destruction.
>
> I know nothing about any Wiki/Blair wars; who won?
> Did they out-quote him, or did his quote-machine prevail?
> Is there an actual quote of Dr. Blair surrendering? If you
> do not have such a quote, then he must have won.
Blair won. That is, he eliminated all Sloan's posts, the good the bad and
the ugly. Nothing in those posts were 'moderated', they were destroyed. With
perfect poetic justice Rob Mitchell called this practice into question, not
only because it was behind-your-back destructive behavior, but because he
was about to become a 'moderator' at USCF. As we see, this word is a
euphemism for 'destructor', its all or nothing.
Mitchell's reward arrived 4 weeks later, when he changed his focus from this
pro-Sloan attention, to asking why Sloan seemed to break the HIPPA law by
mentioning staff medical conditions; why "Sam Sloan" was not using his legal
name on ballots; and if he understood that some scholastic parents would
find his personal web-site offensive.
For these 'attacks' the same Rob Mitchell was banned from Sloan-ville as an
'inconnux', which in 'Murican means of pretended uncertain identity, by
Defendent & Prosecutor & Judge & Jury-Sloan, who played all the parts in his
own dramatic production.
This presumably is the same person as Coward Sloan, who protests so much
about what he can say in other forums, and how fair they are to his point of
view. <snigger >
>> At the time there were very many opinions about the quality of writing et
>> cetera - and I responded then as now, 'shut up and show us' if you're so
>> smart. Get it?
>
> What I "get" is that some folks are not psychologically
> equipped to own their own mistakes. They stand in the
> kitchen, and whine that it's too hot.
You are doing the whining guy. How much more can you cavil over a typo? Just
as I recommended you to play chess rather than mouth off about those who do,
try to write something if you want any critique of your own to be, shall we
say, manly?
>> > Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
>> > think they owned us or something, like a colony.
>>
>> That's what the native americans said, no? To them it was just soldiers
>> and
>> more soldiers.
>
> Here's a snippet: "Rattlesnake Cliffs? That sounds like
> someplace *nobody* would want to live." -- Chief Fat Bull
>
> "It's either that, or more blankets laced with small pox."
> -- Col. Indyangiver
A poor fable. It is highly unlikely that Americans ever supplied smallpox
blankets to natives. It is certain that some Brits did, including the bloody
awful Amherst, whose reward was to have a town named after him. That man was
a genocidal maniac.
Roll over Emily Dickenson!
---
>> I see you have made a useful contribution in this thread,
>> which was to spot the typo. We also spotted it at the same time, and
>> corrected it promptly.
>
> That was not exactly a typo. It looks to be an error
> in translating from the old style descriptive notation
> to the new, algebraic.
Sure.
> You see, in descriptive the
> move "B-R6" is a tad ambiguous, unless you have
> your bearings and know exactly who is on the move,
> what his legal moves are, etc. It's a lot easier for me,
> being a chess genius you know, than it would be for
> a weaker player.
>
>
>> For someone with such a lot to say you might want to try your own fist at
>> writing a Vignette.
>
> Okay, so what exactly is a Vignette?
A short biographical essay in the style of an anecdote. If you write to
Chessville then we will have 2 Kennedys with us. Find the Vignettes page and
contact its editor, which is not me.
> I had a
> Velocette once; damed unreliable piece of junk...
> I got rid of the contraption, and bought a Honda.
> Rode it all over.
That Indian gal had two scooters which is why she is called Pocahondas.
Relatively-Big Chief Sitting Chess
> -- help bot
>
|
| |
Date: 27 Sep 2007 14:46:19
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 8:43 am, "parrthe...@cs.com" <parrthe...@cs.com > wrote:
> Unlike Greg Kennedy, I would not imagine that
> Arnold Denker's understanding would be called into question
> question even if he had missed a mate in one. But as it turned
> out, he did not.
FYI: At the time that game was played, the young Mr.
Denker was still in high school, claims to have never
even seen the Dutch Defense in his life, etc.; thus, his
level of understanding was not that of the Arnorld Denker
I Knew and Other Stories. (Many years later, AD was
described as one of the top twenty players in the world,
but not when this game was played.)
> Alas, the Denker-Felt game had a misprint.
> The move played was 21. ... Bh3 rather than 21. ... Bh6.
My guess is that rather than a printing error, this was
most likely the result of an incompetent translation from
descriptive (B-R6) to algebraic (Bh3/Bh6). It is hardly
surprising that LP would attempt to shift the blame
somewhere else, as that typical for him; but this kind
of denial results in never learning from one's mistakes.
Much better to face the truth, and then go about fixing
the problem, once and for all.
The worst example of this kind of incompetence I have
ever run across was in a translation of a Russian
endgame book; in the algebraic edition, nearly every
other move was wrong, left-to-right being reversed in
countless cases.
> With dismay I note that that the mistaken 21.
> ... Bh6 also appeared in my long Chess Life
> appreciation of Arnold (March 2005). On the other
> hand, the correct 21. ... B-R6 appeared in the Denker-Parr
> volume THE BOBBY FISCHER I KNEW AND OTHER STORIES.
The game makes a better impression (by far) without
the missed mate-in-one, so this is unfortunate. As I
recall, the Web site chessgames.com has 184 games
of Arnold Denker, and this is one of them; their version
is correct, but their commentary may not be if they
happened to borrow from the wrong source, as noted
just above.
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 27 Sep 2007 07:01:53
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 8:43 am, "parrthe...@cs.com" <parrthe...@cs.com > wrote:
> MISPRINT
>
> >In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
>
> missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++. To me,
> this brings into serious question the level of understanding
> behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves.> -- Help Bot
>
> Unlike Greg Kennedy, I would not imagine that
> Arnold Denker's understanding would be called into question
> question even if he had missed a mate in one. But as it turned
> out, he did not.
>
> Alas, the Denker-Felt game had a misprint.
> The move played was 21. ... Bh3 rather than 21. ... Bh6.
> Also the final diagram was wrong.
>
> I am told both mistakes have been rectified. On the other hand,
> an annotation after 21. ... Bh6 suggests the move was supposed
> to be 21. ... Bh3 as in MY BEST CHESS GAMES 1929-1976 by
> GM Arnold Denker (Dover edition, 1981).
>
> With dismay I note that that the mistaken 21.
> ... Bh6 also appeared in my long Chess Life
> appreciation of Arnold (March 2005). On the other
> hand, the correct 21. ... B-R6 appeared in the Denker-Parr
> volume THE BOBBY FISCHER I KNEW AND OTHER STORIES.
>
> Yours, Larry Parr
Congratulations on a well-written piece, Larry. I was once again
touched by your account of your friendship with GM Denker. You are his
friend still.
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 15:48:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 4:05 pm, "parrthe...@cs.com" <parrthe...@cs.com > wrote:
> Speaking of Arnold's result in the 1995 U.S.
> Open, I gave his win (which is listed as a draw in my
> CL article
I would like to take this opportunity to draw attention
to the fact that those antequarians/historians who are
always demanding proof of something in the form of a
printed article are barking up a wrong tree. Setting an
error in type and wasting dead trees to disseminate
it widely, in no way amounts to proof of an event's
actual occurrence. To the contrary, all it really proves
is that Error gets half way 'round the world before Fact
can get his pants on.
> over Emmanuel Perez, rated 2388 at the
> time. Perez as Black grabbed the b-pawn, and we know
> the rest. Arnold made it look so easy, which we know
> it was not. I introduced that game with this comment:
> "A strong young master learned the octogenarians,
> bald and benevolent, bite."
I wouldn't want to brag about that monstrosity of a
sentence. How about this instead: "A strong young
master learned that octogenarians, bald and
benevolent, bite." (Proofreading is easy; what is hard
is finding a writer who is not too ego-bloated to realize
he needs one.)
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 15:37:13
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 12:27 pm, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Good work done by Help Bot. Now the Correction has been made. I think
> Zebediah is using Computer to beat Master Level. He is playing such
> risky moves like hanging its both knights Still winning the Game.
Ah, if Zebediah is using Rybka, that would explain why
he is very *nearly* as good as I am. ; >D
> Can nomorechess still beat the Master Level?
Well, I can if it hangs pieces to simple pawn forks,
yes. Now, if you want me to try and beat a computer
which never hangs any material, that's a different story.
I still recall the strategic victory where I failed to play
the "obvious" (to Fritz, anyway) move ...g5 for quite
some time, but GetClub had allowed me a winning
pin which could not be escaped from without a simple
piece "donation".
I am still getting disconnected many, many times
during a game, and always at the moment when the
program is going to play its move; against Master or
Advance levels, this means recalculating for an hour
or more just to get back to where I was... .
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 15:27:22
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 6:02 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> >> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> > The official crosstable shows he tied for 6th through 12th,
> > which is not quite the same as "finishing sixth".
>
> When I raised the same issue about a certain bloke's finish at Nottingham, I
> was assured that the official way of recording these things in the US these
> days, is to say 6th.
Never rely on other imbeciles to tell you how to do
something -- it only leads to trouble! You must one
day learn to think for yourself, and so why not start
now and get it over with?
The key idea here is that saying he finished sixth
lends a false impression that he was the sixth best
player (in terms of this result, anyway); but of course
*you* would never want to deceive anybody, so you
give all the facts, like when talking to the FBI:
"No, officer, I didn't actually *see* Mr. Kortchnoi toss
Mr. Karpov out the window, but I overheard him threaten
to do it and when I looked back, Mr. Karpov had suddenly
disappeared from sight, while his antagonist had a big,
evil smile on his face. Unfortunately, we were only on
the first floor."
> > It was a
> > very good tourney for GM Denker, as he went from USCF
> > 2322 all the way up to 2375! Note that (apart from Alex
> > Yermolinsky) this event was not exactly packed with
> > grandmasters; so where the heck were they? Was the
> > U.S. Closed championship huge that year? In any case,
> > at 81 years old, he smacked around several masters; this
> > reminds me of Jack Palance falling to the stage floor and
>
> My daughter aged 16 was crew on a big wooden boat up there on Erie, a lake
> boat built to fight the Brits
Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
think they owned us or something, like a colony.
> and a couple of guests showed up, the Gov of
> PA, plus a 'star'. Guests had to put on life jackets, and the star couldn't
> quite figure his out, so #1 daughter went over and tied it for him, but he
> tried to 'help'. "Put your f*** hands down, man!" she said to Jack Palance.
> Which he did, quiet as a lamb. She had no idea who he was.
Ah, the apple does not fall far from the tree. Learned
how to talk from her old man, I see.
> Anyway, 2375 is not too bad at age 81! My gosh! That's not too bad at all.
He no doubt left several masters scratching their heads
in wonder at how they could lose to such an old fellow.
Chess can be a strenuous game, and not only is it
tougher to recall things as you get older, but the clock
seems to speed up on you as well.
I went to chessgames.com and (finally) replayed the
correct moves of this game, where the note about
the King retreating to e7 actually made sense. On
that site, a note can be found in which some poster
borrowed intermittant comments by "Lev Albert and
Larry Parr" ("What villiage idiot...?"). Again, there is
no objectivity; my view is that Rybka could simply
take over in mid game and probably squeak out a
draw through a miraculous defense; but not when
the annotator talks as though Black does not even
get to move while White goes thrice in a row! LOL
-- help bot
|
| | |
Date: 27 Sep 2007 11:26:22
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
"help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1190845642.766796.245160@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Look here bot - when the Wikipedia Blair-action started, these Vignettes
were a good way to rescue material - amended or not - and kept from
destruction.
At the time there were very many opinions about the quality of writing et
cetera - and I responded then as now, 'shut up and show us' if you're so
smart. Get it?
>> > It was a
>> > very good tourney for GM Denker, as he went from USCF
>> > 2322 all the way up to 2375! Note that (apart from Alex
>> > Yermolinsky) this event was not exactly packed with
>> > grandmasters; so where the heck were they? Was the
>> > U.S. Closed championship huge that year? In any case,
>> > at 81 years old, he smacked around several masters; this
>> > reminds me of Jack Palance falling to the stage floor and
>>
>> My daughter aged 16 was crew on a big wooden boat up there on Erie, a
>> lake
>> boat built to fight the Brits
>
> Those scum! The way they treated us, you would
> think they owned us or something, like a colony.
That's what the native americans said, no? To them it was just soldiers and
more soldiers.
>
>> and a couple of guests showed up, the Gov of
>> PA, plus a 'star'. Guests had to put on life jackets, and the star
>> couldn't
>> quite figure his out, so #1 daughter went over and tied it for him, but
>> he
>> tried to 'help'. "Put your f*** hands down, man!" she said to Jack
>> Palance.
>> Which he did, quiet as a lamb. She had no idea who he was.
>
> Ah, the apple does not fall far from the tree. Learned
> how to talk from her old man, I see.
You may not be aware, but navy folk often talk a bit 'rough', though I
forgive you for not being able to hear them from the cornfields.
>
>> Anyway, 2375 is not too bad at age 81! My gosh! That's not too bad at
>> all.
>
> He no doubt left several masters scratching their heads
> in wonder at how they could lose to such an old fellow.
>
> Chess can be a strenuous game, and not only is it
> tougher to recall things as you get older, but the clock
> seems to speed up on you as well.
Does it though? I see you have made a useful contribution in this thread,
which was to spot the typo. We also spotted it at the same time, and
corrected it promptly.
For someone with such a lot to say you might want to try your own fist at
writing a Vignette.
Phil Innes
> I went to chessgames.com and (finally) replayed the
> correct moves of this game, where the note about
> the King retreating to e7 actually made sense. On
> that site, a note can be found in which some poster
> borrowed intermittant comments by "Lev Albert and
> Larry Parr" ("What villiage idiot...?"). Again, there is
> no objectivity; my view is that Rybka could simply
> take over in mid game and probably squeak out a
> draw through a miraculous defense; but not when
> the annotator talks as though Black does not even
> get to move while White goes thrice in a row! LOL
>
>
> -- help bot
>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 14:45:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 5:55 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> > In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
> > missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++.
>
> Good catch, but actually the errata was caught beforehand, and will be
> changed to the correct Black's 21st move which is 21. ...
> Bh3. Hence the diagram also needs correction from 21 forward. //PI
When I visited the Web site, there were no diagram
errors in this game, but there was an error in the text
below one diagram.
In reading Larry Parr's article, I was astounded that
AD would pick a game where he had missed an ultra-
obvious mate-in-one, and I started thinking about
things like severe time pressure, and chess clocks.
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 14:05:11
From: parrthenon@cs.com
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
OCTOGENARIAN DENKER
<Anyway, 2375 is not too bad at age 81! My gosh! That's not too bad at
all. >
Phil Innes
Speaking of Arnold's result in the 1995 U.S.
Open, I gave his win (which is listed as a draw in my
CL article) over Emmanuel Perez, rated 2388 at the
time. Perez as Black grabbed the b-pawn, and we know
the rest. Arnold made it look so easy, which we know
it was not. I introduced that game with this comment:
"A strong young master learned the octogenarians,
bald and benevolent, bite."
Yours, Larry Parr
Chess One wrote:
> "help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190783387.944515.261330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 25, 5:56 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Note the date above, and also this one:
> >>
> >> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
> >
> >
> > The official crosstable shows he tied for 6th through 12th,
> > which is not quite the same as "finishing sixth".
>
> When I raised the same issue about a certain bloke's finish at Nottingham, I
> was assured that the official way of recording these things in the US these
> days, is to say 6th.
>
> > It was a
> > very good tourney for GM Denker, as he went from USCF
> > 2322 all the way up to 2375! Note that (apart from Alex
> > Yermolinsky) this event was not exactly packed with
> > grandmasters; so where the heck were they? Was the
> > U.S. Closed championship huge that year? In any case,
> > at 81 years old, he smacked around several masters; this
> > reminds me of Jack Palance falling to the stage floor and
>
> My daughter aged 16 was crew on a big wooden boat up there on Erie, a lake
> boat built to fight the Brits, and a couple of guests showed up, the Gov of
> PA, plus a 'star'. Guests had to put on life jackets, and the star couldn't
> quite figure his out, so #1 daughter went over and tied it for him, but he
> tried to 'help'. "Put your f*** hands down, man!" she said to Jack Palance.
> Which he did, quiet as a lamb. She had no idea who he was.
>
> Anyway, 2375 is not too bad at age 81! My gosh! That's not too bad at all.
>
> Phil Innes
>
> > doing one-armed pushups at the Academy Awards. (Big
> > deal; let's see him do just *one* with no arms!)
> >
> >
> > -- help bot
> >
> >
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 10:27:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 26, 6:43 pm, "parrthe...@cs.com" <parrthe...@cs.com > wrote:
> MISPRINT
>
> >In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
>
> missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++. To me,
> this brings into serious question the level of understanding
> behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves.> -- Help Bot
>
> Unlike Greg Kennedy, I would not imagine that
> Arnold Denker's understanding would be called into question
> question even if he had missed a mate in one. But as it turned
> out, he did not.
>
> Alas, the Denker-Felt game had a misprint.
> The move played was 21. ... Bh3 rather than 21. ... Bh6.
> Also the final diagram was wrong.
>
> I am told both mistakes have been rectified. On the other hand,
> an annotation after 21. ... Bh6 suggests the move was supposed
> to be 21. ... Bh3 as in MY BEST CHESS GAMES 1929-1976 by
> GM Arnold Denker (Dover edition, 1981).
>
> With dismay I note that that the mistaken 21.
> ... Bh6 also appeared in my long Chess Life
> appreciation of Arnold (March 2005). On the other
> hand, the correct 21. ... B-R6 appeared in the Denker-Parr
> volume THE BOBBY FISCHER I KNEW AND OTHER STORIES.
>
> Yours, Larry Parr
>
>
>
> Chess One wrote:
> > This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
> > including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
>
> > (9/23) Chessville Vignettes: If You Must Meet Arnold Denker, a remembrance
> > by Larry Parr. Denker, former US Champion, and once among the top-20
> > players in the world, about whom Al Horowitz once wrote, "He can handle an
> > attack with a fertility of ideas and richness of imagination that are rare."
>
> > full article:http://www.chessville.com:80/misc/History/vignettes/Denker.htm
>
> > Denker,A - Feit,H
> > New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> > 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> > Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> > 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> > 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
>
> > Note the date above, and also this one:
>
> > "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> > Brava!
Good work done by Help Bot. Now the Correction has been made. I think
Zebediah is using Computer to beat Master Level. He is playing such
risky moves like hanging its both knights Still winning the Game.
Can nomorechess still beat the Master Level?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 26 Sep 2007 06:43:39
From: parrthenon@cs.com
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
MISPRINT
>In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++. To me,
this brings into serious question the level of understanding
behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves. > -- Help Bot
Unlike Greg Kennedy, I would not imagine that
Arnold Denker's understanding would be called into question
question even if he had missed a mate in one. But as it turned
out, he did not.
Alas, the Denker-Felt game had a misprint.
The move played was 21. ... Bh3 rather than 21. ... Bh6.
Also the final diagram was wrong.
I am told both mistakes have been rectified. On the other hand,
an annotation after 21. ... Bh6 suggests the move was supposed
to be 21. ... Bh3 as in MY BEST CHESS GAMES 1929-1976 by
GM Arnold Denker (Dover edition, 1981).
With dismay I note that that the mistaken 21.
... Bh6 also appeared in my long Chess Life
appreciation of Arnold (March 2005). On the other
hand, the correct 21. ... B-R6 appeared in the Denker-Parr
volume THE BOBBY FISCHER I KNEW AND OTHER STORIES.
Yours, Larry Parr
Chess One wrote:
> This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
> including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
>
> (9/23) Chessville Vignettes: If You Must Meet Arnold Denker, a remembrance
> by Larry Parr. Denker, former US Champion, and once among the top-20
> players in the world, about whom Al Horowitz once wrote, "He can handle an
> attack with a fertility of ideas and richness of imagination that are rare."
>
> full article: http://www.chessville.com:80/misc/History/vignettes/Denker.htm
>
> Denker,A - Feit,H
> New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
>
> Note the date above, and also this one:
>
> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> Brava!
>
> Phil Innes
> Chessville's Honorable Spam Director
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Date: 26 Sep 2007 06:37:24
From: parrthenon@cs.com
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
Chess One wrote:
> "help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190782072.475096.152880@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 25, 1:18 pm, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Denker,A - Feit,H
> >> > New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
> >>
> >> > 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5
> >> > 9.Ng5
> >> > Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4
> >> > Bxg5
> >> > 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4
> >> > Be3+
> >> > 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
> >
> >> I loved reading whole story. And also the game was very nice. Imagine,
> >> he played such a good game in 1929. When there was no computer to
> >> practise.
> >
> > In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
> > missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++.
>
> Good catch, but actually the errata was caught beforehand, and will be
> changed to the correct Black's 21st move which is 21. ...
> Bh3. Hence the diagram also needs correction from 21 forward. //PI
>
>
> > To me,
> > this brings into serious question the level of understanding
> > behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves; in fact,
> > I wonder if this Queen's Indian style setup was a common
> > way of playing the Dutch Defense way back then. His
> > opponent, a young Mr. Feit, also missed several better
> > defensive tries. The move 7. ...d6 is where Black went
> > astray; that move can be and is played in what we now
> > call the Lenningrad Dutch -- with no Queenside
> > fianchetto, of course.
> >
> > I think it must be the aggressive, attacking style
> > which pleases the eye here; to me, it looks like White
> > was pursuing the opponent's Queen (not his King), up
> > until the final move, and that Black was defending the
> > wrong monarch, but to no avail.
> >
> >
> > -- help bot
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
|
| |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 00:14:28
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 25, 5:56 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
> including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
> Denker,A - Feit,H
> New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
I find GM Denker's own annotations of this game to
be just a tad misguided.
a) He says that the fianchetto of Black's QB is a
strategical error, which may be true; but then he
just assumes that Black will later advance his
d-pawn, and gives that as the proof. (In fact, this
later advance is a strategical blunder *in itself*.)
b) GM Denker says that ...Bc8 is "forced"; in
reality, there are alternative ways of handling the
situation, as any decent computer program will
demonstrate. This tack of suggesting that every
later move was "forced", is just wrongheaded.
Both sides had plenty of options; for instance,
White could have exploited the e6 weakness in
several different ways, not just as in the game.
c) He gives his own moves exclams over and
over, even when they are obvious; this approach
leads to "exclamflation" (an oversupply of exclams
with no counterbalancing question marks). I
expect the idea is to render an artificial "brilliancy"
effect.
d) At move 15, a very poor move is handed an
exclamation mark. What was needed of course
was to defend the King with ...Bf5. It is oh so
obvious that chopping wood on f4 gives White a
free move with which to capture on h7 with check.
GM Denker even gives faulty analysis to support
this exclam, as if "in denial" that here was Black's
big chance to defend his King, and take his trip
to the woodshed.
e) Move 19: White pursues the enemy Queen,
when his King was on the auction block. Tsk,
tsk.
f) Move 20: another double-exclam is awarded,
though White got himself into the fix by not
swinging his Rook into play on move 19 . Black
is said to be "completely tied up and helpless
against the many threats of mate". Well, in that
case I would expect an efficient execution, not
this stumbling about. I know this is from when
Mr. Denker was a wee lad, but fumbling about,
when combined with severe exclamflation, makes
for artificially inflated opportunities to spread the
disease until it can potentially become a pandemic.
(The simple 19.Rf1, Black resigns, could perhaps
have saved hundreds of innocent lives.)
g) The imbecile IM Innes has transcribed the
moves incorrectly, as I just now discovered when
looking at GM Denker's own annotations. Above,
where the move 21. ...Bh6 is given, the actual
move played was ...Bh3. This explains a lot;
there was no missed mate-in-one, because a
key square was not in fact occupied by Black's
KB.
h) But the game annotations as given in the article by
Larry Parr are also incorrect: below the diagram for the
position after 22. ...Kg5, GM Denker comments:
-------------
23. ...Bxf1
24. Qf5+ Ke7
25.Qf7 mate.
------------
Obviously, the King cannot move through check, so
the winning line should read: 24. Qf5+ Kh6, 25. Qh5++.
This is the famous R-f1 move which has no doubt
appeared in the pages of Chess Life numerous times;
the Rook is immune from capture because of this two-
move mate.
i) But the single most alarming thing about the game's
annotations is the ridiculous claim that AD had never
even seen the Dutch Defense before this game. Let
the math majors figure the odds, but I'll take the side of
the bet which says this is either a baldfaced lie, or just
a titanic lapse of memory! A billion to one? A zillion to
one? Go, go, calculus nerds... .
For the record, although it has been *many years*, I do
recall having seen the famous R-f1 diagram before, but
had no clue who was playing either side. What are the
odds?
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 25 Sep 2007 22:09:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 25, 5:56 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> Note the date above, and also this one:
>
> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
The official crosstable shows he tied for 6th through 12th,
which is not quite the same as "finishing sixth". It was a
very good tourney for GM Denker, as he went from USCF
2322 all the way up to 2375! Note that (apart from Alex
Yermolinsky) this event was not exactly packed with
grandmasters; so where the heck were they? Was the
U.S. Closed championship huge that year? In any case,
at 81 years old, he smacked around several masters; this
reminds me of Jack Palance falling to the stage floor and
doing one-armed pushups at the Academy Awards. (Big
deal; let's see him do just *one* with no arms!)
-- help bot
|
| | |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 11:02:41
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
"help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1190783387.944515.261330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 25, 5:56 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Note the date above, and also this one:
>>
>> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
>
> The official crosstable shows he tied for 6th through 12th,
> which is not quite the same as "finishing sixth".
When I raised the same issue about a certain bloke's finish at Nottingham, I
was assured that the official way of recording these things in the US these
days, is to say 6th.
> It was a
> very good tourney for GM Denker, as he went from USCF
> 2322 all the way up to 2375! Note that (apart from Alex
> Yermolinsky) this event was not exactly packed with
> grandmasters; so where the heck were they? Was the
> U.S. Closed championship huge that year? In any case,
> at 81 years old, he smacked around several masters; this
> reminds me of Jack Palance falling to the stage floor and
My daughter aged 16 was crew on a big wooden boat up there on Erie, a lake
boat built to fight the Brits, and a couple of guests showed up, the Gov of
PA, plus a 'star'. Guests had to put on life jackets, and the star couldn't
quite figure his out, so #1 daughter went over and tied it for him, but he
tried to 'help'. "Put your f*** hands down, man!" she said to Jack Palance.
Which he did, quiet as a lamb. She had no idea who he was.
Anyway, 2375 is not too bad at age 81! My gosh! That's not too bad at all.
Phil Innes
> doing one-armed pushups at the Academy Awards. (Big
> deal; let's see him do just *one* with no arms!)
>
>
> -- help bot
>
>
|
| |
Date: 25 Sep 2007 21:47:52
From: help bot
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 25, 1:18 pm, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > Denker,A - Feit,H
> > New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> > 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> > Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> > 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> > 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
> I loved reading whole story. And also the game was very nice. Imagine,
> he played such a good game in 1929. When there was no computer to
> practise.
In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++. To me,
this brings into serious question the level of understanding
behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves; in fact,
I wonder if this Queen's Indian style setup was a common
way of playing the Dutch Defense way back then. His
opponent, a young Mr. Feit, also missed several better
defensive tries. The move 7. ...d6 is where Black went
astray; that move can be and is played in what we now
call the Lenningrad Dutch -- with no Queenside
fianchetto, of course.
I think it must be the aggressive, attacking style
which pleases the eye here; to me, it looks like White
was pursuing the opponent's Queen (not his King), up
until the final move, and that Black was defending the
wrong monarch, but to no avail.
-- help bot
|
| | |
Date: 26 Sep 2007 10:55:46
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
"help bot" <nomorechess@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1190782072.475096.152880@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 25, 1:18 pm, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Denker,A - Feit,H
>> > New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>>
>> > 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5
>> > 9.Ng5
>> > Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4
>> > Bxg5
>> > 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4
>> > Be3+
>> > 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
>
>> I loved reading whole story. And also the game was very nice. Imagine,
>> he played such a good game in 1929. When there was no computer to
>> practise.
>
> In the game to which you refer, the young Mr. Denker
> missed an obvious *mate-in-one* by 23.h4++.
Good catch, but actually the errata was caught beforehand, and will be
changed to the correct Black's 21st move which is 21. ...
Bh3. Hence the diagram also needs correction from 21 forward. //PI
> To me,
> this brings into serious question the level of understanding
> behind the grandmasterly-looking opening moves; in fact,
> I wonder if this Queen's Indian style setup was a common
> way of playing the Dutch Defense way back then. His
> opponent, a young Mr. Feit, also missed several better
> defensive tries. The move 7. ...d6 is where Black went
> astray; that move can be and is played in what we now
> call the Lenningrad Dutch -- with no Queenside
> fianchetto, of course.
>
> I think it must be the aggressive, attacking style
> which pleases the eye here; to me, it looks like White
> was pursuing the opponent's Queen (not his King), up
> until the final move, and that Black was defending the
> wrong monarch, but to no avail.
>
>
> -- help bot
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 25 Sep 2007 12:43:54
From: Rob
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 25, 5:56 am, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
> including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
>
> (9/23) Chessville Vignettes: If You Must Meet Arnold Denker, a remembrance
> by Larry Parr. Denker, former US Champion, and once among the top-20
> players in the world, about whom Al Horowitz once wrote, "He can handle an
> attack with a fertility of ideas and richness of imagination that are rare."
>
> full article:http://www.chessville.com:80/misc/History/vignettes/Denker.htm
>
> Denker,A - Feit,H
> New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
>
> Note the date above, and also this one:
>
> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> Brava!
>
> Phil Innes
> Chessville's Honorable Spam Director
This is a wonderful piece of work. Mr. Parr did a fine job. Lets hope
we shall soon have more submissions of equal quality with which to
build the Vignette library.
|
| |
Date: 25 Sep 2007 11:18:08
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: If you must meet Arnold Denker
|
On Sep 25, 3:56 pm, "Chess One" <inn...@verizon.net > wrote:
> This week there appears a new memoire of Arnold Denker at Chessville
> including Arnold's favorite game [score given below].
>
> (9/23) Chessville Vignettes: If You Must Meet Arnold Denker, a remembrance
> by Larry Parr. Denker, former US Champion, and once among the top-20
> players in the world, about whom Al Horowitz once wrote, "He can handle an
> attack with a fertility of ideas and richness of imagination that are rare."
>
> full article:http://www.chessville.com:80/misc/History/vignettes/Denker.htm
>
> Denker,A - Feit,H
> New York Interscholastic Championship, 1929
>
> 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 Be7 7.Nc3 d6 8.d5 e5 9.Ng5
> Bc8 10.e4 0-0 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 fxe4 13.Ncxe4 Nxe4 [diagram] 14.Bxe4 Bxg5
> 15.Qh5 Rxf4 16.Qxh7+ Kf7 17.Bg6+ Kf6 18.Rxf4+ Bxf4 19.Qh4+ Bg5 20.Qe4 Be3+
> 21.Kh1 Bh6 22.Rf1+ Kg5 23.Bh7 1-0
>
> Note the date above, and also this one:
>
> "in 1995, at age 81, he finished sixth in the U. S. Open."
>
> Brava!
>
> Phil Innes
> Chessville's Honorable Spam Director
I loved reading whole story. And also the game was very nice. Imagine,
he played such a good game in 1929. When there was no computer to
practise.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
|
