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Main
Date: 20 Feb 2008 10:51:01
From: J.D. Walker
Subject: Man vs. Machine
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Hello Chess Friends,
It appears that the rec.games.chess.computer newsgroup has been
abandoned. So, I will repost this here and see if anyone else is
interested in the topic. If I am the only one that feels that this is
significant, then I will let it die. :)
One of the very strong GMs that plays on ICC goes by the handle of
"Goldmund." He is actually Alexander Rustemov from Russia. He is one
of the few, the proud, the daring humans to take on Rybka at blitz.
Lately, he has been playing at a time control of 3 minutes with an
increment of 5 seconds. Like "Smallville" (AKA Hikaru Nakamura), he is
conversant with the strategy of locking up the entire position to
achieve a draw. This appears to be a small gap in Rybka's game that the
GMs can sometimes exploit to gain a draw. Rybka is so strong that this
in itself is a victory for the humans.
Goldmund continues to try to find a path to a win while holding the
lockup strategy as a reserve plan B. Let me be clear, wins are very,
very rare for the humans against Rybka. Draws are rare also. Nakamura
might manage 2 draws out of ten games on a good night.
Thus, it was an exciting surprise to see that Goldmund managed the near
impossible yesterday by defeating Rybka straight up. The game is an
excellent example of powerful, patient positional play with the idea of
the lockup strategy in reserve. Have a look at it.
[Event "ICC"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2008.02.20"]
[White "Goldmund"]
[Black "TransWarp"]
[Result ""]
[TimeControl "180+5"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c3 b6 4. g3 d5 5. Bg2 Bd6
6. Bg5 Nc6 7. Nbd2 O-O 8. e4 Be7 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. O-O Re8
11. Re1 Bb7 12. Qc2 Qd7 13. Rad1 g6 14. h4 a5 15. h5 a4
16. hxg6 hxg6 17. e5 Bg7 18. Nf1 Na5 19. Ne3 c5 20. Ng4 Qe7
21. Qc1 Nc4 22. Re2 a3 23. b3 Nb2 24. Rdd2 Ba6 25. Re3 c4
26. b4 Bb5 27. Bh3 Rec8 28. Kg2 Nd3 29. Qh1 Rc7 30. Kg1 Re8
31. Bf1 Ra7 32. Qh3 Rc7 33. Ne1 Ba4 34. f4 Nxe1 35. Rxe1 Kf8
36. Qh7 Qd8 37. Rh2 Rc8 38. Ne3 Re7 39. g4 Rb7 40. g5 Qe7
41. Ng4 Ke8 42. Qxg7 Kd7 43. Qf6 Kc6 44. Qxe7 Rxe7 45. Rc1 Ra7
46. Kf2 Rf8 47. Ke3 Raa8 48. Be2 Rh8 49. Kd2 Rxh2 50. Nxh2 Rh8
51. Ng4 Rh4 52. Ke3 Rh3+ 53. Kf2 Rh8 54. Nh6 Rh7 55. Rh1 Bc2
56. Rh2 Bb1 57. Rh1 Bc2 58. Rc1 Ba4 59. Ke3 Kd7 60. Kd2 Ke8
61. Rh1 Rh8 62. Rh2 Bb3 63. Rh1 Ba4 64. Kc1 Kf8 65. Rh2 Ke8
66. Ng4 Rf8 67. Rh7 Ke7 68. Kb1 Bc6 69. Bd1 Bb5 70. Bc2 Kd8
71. Nh6 Be8 72. Rg7 Kc8 73. Rg8 Rxg8 74. Nxg8 Kd8 75. Nf6 Bd7
76. Ng4 Kc7 77. Ne3 Be8 78. Bd1 Kb7 79. Kc1 Bd7 80. Nc2 b5
81. Nxa3 Kb6 82. Nb1 Kb7 83. Kb2 Ka7 84. a4 Kb7 85. Ka3 Ka6
86. Nd2 Kb6 87. Nf1 Ka6 88. Ne3 Kb7 89. axb5 Kb6 90. Bf3 Bxb5
91. Bd1 Ba6 92. Ba4 Kc7 93. Be8 Bc8 94. Bxf7 Kd7 95. Bxg6 Kd8
96. b5 Ke7 97. Kb4 Kf8 98. Kc5 Kg8 99. b6 Kf8 100. Kd6 Bb7
101. Kxe6 Bc8+ 102. Kf6 Kg8 103. e6 Bxe6 104. Kxe6 Kg7 105. f5 Kg8
106. Kf6 Kf8 107. b7 Kg8 108. b8=Q#
All of Rybka's attempts to find tactical cheap shots were thwarted. This
was a very nice game, especially for blitz.
--
Cordially,
Rev. J.D. Walker, MsD, U.C.
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Date: 22 Feb 2008 04:05:17
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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On Feb 21, 7:44 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > We've told you time and time again that the length of a game has
> > little to do with the strength of the players, except that a very weak
> > player will lose quickly against a very strong player. An aggressive,
> > tactical player aiming for checkmate will win much faster than a
> > player whose style is more positional and who aims for a won endgame.
> Ok can you stand for more than 50 Moves against Rybka / Normal Level.
> Answer is probable No. But If I ask can you stand for 30 Moves you
> will say quite Possible.
>
> If I ask can you stand for 15 Moves you will say Why not. So it is
> very difficult to keep your king safe if your Opponent is strong.
>
> So Normal level was able to keep safe for 38 moves against Rybka while
> Beginner Level goes out in just 27 Moves.
>
> So Strong player can stand longer by playing good moves against Rybka.
You could possibly tell something about the
relative strength of two opponents from this
sort of thing, but not by looking at just one
game.
Generally, when I analyze my own games
against humans on the computer, it creates
a graph which reveals a good deal regarding
relative strength of play. If say, White starts
off with a small advantage and makes no
real headway until a blunder at move 25, we
may conclude that there was no big disparity
-- until the blunder. But if the graph shows a
steadily increasing advantage, the steepness
of the rise can reveal just how much stronger
one player played than the other in that game.
If one of the two players seems to average
a gain of 0.25 per move over many moves,
one explanation is that his opponent was
consistently playing moves which are inferior
by that gin. If the gin averages one
pawn (or point) per move, there is a much
greater disparity in strength, and of curse
this game would be /likely/ to end more
quickly if both were played out to the finish.
Many of my games against lower-rated
players show that I gained rather smoothly,
like a glider in calm air. But others reveal
that I got nowhere at all, until a single,
game-losing blunder was made-- sometimes
late in the game, perhaps even in time
pressure; these are disturbing, since I am
presumed to be vastly superior by virtue of
my five-digit rating. Such games as these
reveal that I am not always handling the
openings properly, or that perhaps I am
going "a bridge too far" in my efforts to
assure a decisive victory over a lower-
rated opponent, not an embarrassing draw.
In one recent game, I won a piece for one
pawn in the early opening, but my opponent
did not resign; there was, oh, perhaps five
thousand rating points between us, so this
came as a bit of a surprise. Nevertheless,
he put up /some/ fight. I simply traded off
piece after piece, until I had three and he
had but two, but the Queens were still on,
so he kept a faint glimmer of hope. I would
not say this was a particularly short game,
though it could have been; the length was
more or less dictated by a whim-- not by
the relative strength of the two players.
-- help bot
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Date: 22 Feb 2008 03:21:45
From: Sanny
Subject: A Bug found and Removed
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Today a Bug was found in the GetClub Game which was making it hang.
Now that bug has been removed so you can play comfortably.
During this week a lot of improvement was done So it was natural that
a few bug may come up. I think you will not find much problem in
playing now and it will play smoothly.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Feb 2008 04:44:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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On Feb 21, 4:27=A0pm, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
> > Normal Level. I think Master Level can have a game upto 45 Moves
> > against Rybka.
>
> We've told you time and time again that the length of a game has
> little to do with the strength of the players, except that a very weak
> player will lose quickly against a very strong player. =A0An aggressive,
> tactical player aiming for checkmate will win much faster than a
> player whose style is more positional and who aims for a won endgame.
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Beefy Ge=
rbil (TM): it's like awww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/=A0 =A0 children's =
pet that's made from a cow!
Ok can you stand for more than 50 Moves against Rybka / Normal Level.
Answer is probable No. But If I ask can you stand for 30 Moves you
will say quite Possible.
If I ask can you stand for 15 Moves you will say Why not. So it is
very difficult to keep your king safe if your Opponent is strong.
So Normal level was able to keep safe for 38 moves against Rybka while
Beginner Level goes out in just 27 Moves.
So Strong player can stand longer by playing good moves against Rybka.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Feb 2008 04:14:07
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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There was a server Problem in that Game, So it was playing So Bad and
then Hanged, Otherwise Normal Level always plays in 1-2 min and
Maximum 5 min.
Actually the Program resigned at that move but due to server problem
the Resign could not be completed correctly. That Game need to be
deleted for proper functioning. The Programmers have found that
mistake But you need to restart a new game as that Game was having
errors.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Feb 2008 04:00:05
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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On Feb 21, 6:10=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 20, 3:15=A0pm, SBD <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 20, 1:17=A0pm, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
> > > Normal Level.
>
> > 1200, with a tailwind.
>
> =A0 Not even 1200, Steve. Here's a game I tried vs. "Normal" level this
> afternoon. I was Black:
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5.dxc5 Qxc5 6. Bf4 e5 7. b4
> Qc7 8. Bg5 Be7 9. Bd3 O-O 10. Nf3?? e4
>
> =A0 Sanny's program has always had a problem with simple pawn forks like
> this.
>
> 11. Bxf6 exf3 12. Bxh7+??
>
> =A0 Rather than take the least of evils with 12.Bxe7 Qxe7+ 13.Kd2 fxg2,
> it gives up another piece!
>
> 12...Kxh7 13. Qd3+ Kg8 14. Qxf3 Bxf6 15. O-O Re8 16. Qd3 Be6 17.
> Qh7+???
>
> =A0 Incredible! Gives up the queen for nothing.
>
> 17...Kxh7 18. Re1 Nc6 19. b5 Nb4 20. Re4 Nc2
>
> =A0 And now I'm winning a rook. In the first 20 moves, Sanny's program
> has managed to give up two minor pieces, a rook and a queen for zilch.
> Shooting fish in a barrel is arduous by comparison.
>
> 21. Nd2 Nxa1 22. c4 Bxc4 23. b6 Rxe4 24. Nxe4 Qf4 25. Nxf6+ gxf6 26.
> h3 Re8
>
> =A0 At this point mate in at most 3 moves is inevitable. Sanny's program
> refused to move, "thinking on pawn" for about an hour until I shut it
> off. This despite the fact that "normal" level is supposed to move in
> 1-2 minutes.
>
> =A0 And this is the program that's going to beat Rybka! =A0 ROFLMAO.
I think there was some error in loading of the program on your
Computer. That was the reasion it played so badly.
As from the games played by it against Rybka I do not think it does
such mistakes normally.
And Moreover the Normal Level Will always make move in 1-2 min Max it
can go to 5 min. It will never take more than 5 min unless the loading
of Program is not proper.
If you say, I will remove this game and you restart a new game and
see your Connection is OK.
The Fork Problem was solved 2 months back. Since then this is the
first time I am hearing someone able to Fork its pieces. May be its
pieces got stuck somewhere Or the Program has not loaded properly.
I remember when playing with Rybka Rybka hanged saying "unable to
response" I was thinking that Rybka has lost the match but later I
found it was a Mate in 8 Condition and the problem was with my
Internet Connection.
Java Applets sometimes do not work properly as sometimes browser do
not load it properly.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Feb 2008 11:23:52
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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J.D. Walker <[email protected] > wrote:
> It appears that the rec.games.chess.computer newsgroup has been
> abandoned.
Does it?
Dave.
--
David Richerby Strange Monk (TM): it's like a man of
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ God but it's totally weird!
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Date: 20 Feb 2008 17:10:22
From:
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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On Feb 20, 3:15=A0pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 1:17=A0pm, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
> > Normal Level.
>
> 1200, with a tailwind.
Not even 1200, Steve. Here's a game I tried vs. "Normal" level this
afternoon. I was Black:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5.dxc5 Qxc5 6. Bf4 e5 7. b4
Qc7 8. Bg5 Be7 9. Bd3 O-O 10. Nf3?? e4
Sanny's program has always had a problem with simple pawn forks like
this.
11. Bxf6 exf3 12. Bxh7+??
Rather than take the least of evils with 12.Bxe7 Qxe7+ 13.Kd2 fxg2,
it gives up another piece!
12...Kxh7 13. Qd3+ Kg8 14. Qxf3 Bxf6 15. O-O Re8 16. Qd3 Be6 17.
Qh7+???
Incredible! Gives up the queen for nothing.
17...Kxh7 18. Re1 Nc6 19. b5 Nb4 20. Re4 Nc2
And now I'm winning a rook. In the first 20 moves, Sanny's program
has managed to give up two minor pieces, a rook and a queen for zilch.
Shooting fish in a barrel is arduous by comparison.
21. Nd2 Nxa1 22. c4 Bxc4 23. b6 Rxe4 24. Nxe4 Qf4 25. Nxf6+ gxf6 26.
h3 Re8
At this point mate in at most 3 moves is inevitable. Sanny's program
refused to move, "thinking on pawn" for about an hour until I shut it
off. This despite the fact that "normal" level is supposed to move in
1-2 minutes.
And this is the program that's going to beat Rybka! ROFLMAO.
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Date: 20 Feb 2008 12:15:59
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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On Feb 20, 1:17=A0pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
> Normal Level.
1200, with a tailwind.
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Date: 20 Feb 2008 11:17:15
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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I played GetClubs Normal Level against Rybka. Rybka won in just 38
Moves. I still consider that to be very good as Normal was able to
resist Rybka for 38 Moves.
How many moves can you stand against Rybka. Beginner was beaten in
just 27 Moves. So its very tough to get keep yourself alive till 38
Moves by Normal Level.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
Normal Level. I think Master Level can have a game upto 45 Moves
against Rybka.
Rybka Sacrificed its Bishop in One Move, In Next Move it Sacrificed
Its Rook So I was ahead by 5+3 Points. But then after 10 Moves it
brought Mate in 4. And Normal Level Lost the Game.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 21 Feb 2008 11:27:44
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
> Normal Level. I think Master Level can have a game upto 45 Moves
> against Rybka.
We've told you time and time again that the length of a game has
little to do with the strength of the players, except that a very weak
player will lose quickly against a very strong player. An aggressive,
tactical player aiming for checkmate will win much faster than a
player whose style is more positional and who aims for a won endgame.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Beefy Gerbil (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ children's pet that's made from a cow!
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Date: 22 Feb 2008 10:53:14
From: David Kane
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:08o*[email protected]...
> Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>> If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
>> Normal Level. I think Master Level can have a game upto 45 Moves
>> against Rybka.
>
> We've told you time and time again that the length of a game has
> little to do with the strength of the players, except that a very weak
> player will lose quickly against a very strong player. An aggressive,
> tactical player aiming for checkmate will win much faster than a
> player whose style is more positional and who aims for a won endgame.
Conjecture does not become fact, no matter how many times it
is repeated. Do you have any actual *data* to support your claims?
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Date: 20 Feb 2008 11:14:06
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine
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I played GetClubs Normal Level against Rybka. Rybka won in just 38
Moves. I still consider that to be very good as Normal was able to
resist Rybka for 38 Moves.
How many moves can you stand against Rybka. Beginner was beaten in
just 27 Moves. So its very tough to get keep yourself alive till 38
Moves by Normal Level.
If my Normal Level stands for 38 Moves what would be Approx Rating of
Normal Level. I think Master Level can have a game upto 45 Moves
against Rybka.
Rybka Sacrificed its Bishop in One Move, In Next Move it Sacrificed
Its Rook So I was ahead by 5+3 Points. But then after 10 Moves it
brought Mate in 4. And Normal Level Lost the Game.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Ches.html
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Ches.html
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