Main
Date: 30 Jan 2008 07:09:53
From: SAT W-7
Subject: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.

I am white..

White..
Pawns on , A-4 , B-3, D-3, E-4,F-3, G-5 , G-2.
Rooks on , C-I and H-I
Bishop on D-I
King on E-3
.....................................................................

Black computer on

Pawns on , A-5 , B-4 , C-5, D-6, E-5, E-6 , G-6, H-5 ..

Rooks on , A-7 and F-8 ..
Knight on D-4 ..
King on H-8 ..

It was blacks move and it moved King to G-8.
It was moving King to G-8 to H-8 and i was moving Rook from H-I to F-I
..

It would not leave it's King on the H-file when i moved my rook to the
H-file so after about 8 of the same moves each i finally said draw ....


This computer is very simple to use , you do not have to register , just
click on the play button and you can have white or black and just start
playing it .....If i knew how to post it here i would..

Can you guys see a way for me to crack it's defences ?





 
Date: 01 Feb 2008 15:05:27
From: help bot
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 31, 10:28 am, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:

> My apologies for neglecting the f3-pawn when I set up the original
> position. With that pawn on the board Black has a tougher time, but
> still is clearly winning. White is totally passive, with a bad bishop
> vs. a classically unassaiblable outpost knight.

For an explanation of exactly what an unassaiblable
outpost is, see nearly-IMnes' new book, "Mie Sistem",
subtitled: "Not Your Boy!"


> His rooks and king are
> far less mobile too. There are probably several winning plans. Here's
> an illustration of one, involving invading on the kingside to swap off
> a rook or two, while transferring the king to the queenside to support
> an advance of Black's pawn majority on that wing:
>
> 2... Rh7 3. g3
>
> If White tries to prevent the h-pawn's advance with 3. Rh4, Black
> has a cute petite combinaison:

> 3...Rf5! 4. exf5 Nxf5+ 5. Kf2 Nxh4.


That is not a particularly brilliant idea, as the
Knight is easily trapped on h4:

3. ...Rf5, 4. exf5 Nxf5+, 5. Kf2 Nxh4, 6. g4,
and the horse will eventually require shooting, for
it can never move again, except to f5-- a square
now attacked by a White pawn. (Still, Black
emerges winning due to his many extra pawns,
which outweigh the Bishop.)


> And in some lines there's a sac on f3, for example 3. g4 Rhf7 4.gxh5 Rxf3+
> 5. Bxf3 Rxf3+ 6. Kd2 Nxb3+ 7. Kc2 Nxc1 8. Kxc1 Rxd3 etc.

Once again, not the best idea; instead setting up for the
cheapo with: 3. ...R/h-f7 (against which White can toss
in 4. Rb1), it is all over but the shouting after: 3. g4 hg,
4. Rxh7+ Kxh7, 5. fg Rf1. Black quite easily rounds
up even more material, while White is helpless to resist.

But, as TK's lines seem to begin only at his
labeled move-3, perhaps we are looking at
slightly different positions?

One point is that the move R-f1, to defend f3,
runs smack into ...h4, after which Black will
penetrate and/or win the g5 pawn. Add that
(either one) to the pawn advantage he started
with, and White cannot possibly defend
against Frr-- I mean against /me/. ; >D


-- help bot


 
Date: 31 Jan 2008 07:28:03
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 8:24=A0pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:
> On Jan 30, 10:09=A0am, Sin...@webtv.net (SAT W-7) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am white..
>
> > =A0 White..
> > Pawns on , A-4 , B-3, D-3, E-4,F-3, G-5 , G-2.
> > Rooks on , C-I and H-I
> > Bishop on D-I
> > King on E-3
> > .....................................................................
>
> > Black computer on
>
> > Pawns on , A-5 , B-4 , C-5, D-6, E-5, E-6 , G-6, H-5 ..
>
> > Rooks on , A-7 and F-8 ..
> > Knight on D-4 ..
> > King on H-8 ..
>
> > Can you guys see a way for me to crack it's defences ?
>
> =A0 White is totally busted here. A sample line: 1... Raf7 2. g4 Rf2 3.
> gxh5 d5 4. hxg6+ Kg8 5. exd5 R8f4 6. Bg4 (if 6. dxe6 Nf5#) 6... exd5
> 7. g7 Nc2+ 8. Rxc2 d4# 0-1- Hide quoted text -

My apologies for neglecting the f3-pawn when I set up the original
position. With that pawn on the board Black has a tougher time, but
still is clearly winning. White is totally passive, with a bad bishop
vs. a classically unassaiblable outpost knight. His rooks and king are
far less mobile too. There are probably several winning plans. Here's
an illustration of one, involving invading on the kingside to swap off
a rook or two, while transferring the king to the queenside to support
an advance of Black's pawn majority on that wing:

2... Rh7 3. g3

If White tries to prevent the h-pawn's advance with 3. Rh4, Black
has a cute petite combinaison: 3...Rf5! 4. exf5 Nxf5+ 5. Kf2 Nxh4. And
in some lines there's a sac on f3, for example 3. g4 Rhf7 4.gxh5 Rxf3+
5. Bxf3 Rxf3+ 6. Kd2 Nxb3+ 7. Kc2 Nxc1 8. Kxc1 Rxd3 etc.

3... Rhf7 4. Rf1 h4 5.gxh4 Rf4 6. Rb1

Or 6. Rh1 Rxf3+ 7. Bxf3 Rxf3+ 8. Kd2 Nxb3+ 9. Kc2 Nxc1 10. Rxc1 Rh3

6... Rxh4 7. Rb2 Rff4 8. Rg2 Rh3 9. Rgg1 Rfh4 10. Rg2 Kf7 11. Kf2 Ke7
12.Ke1 d5 13. Kd2 Rh2 14. Rff2 Rxg2 15. Rxg2 Rh3 16. Ke3

If 16. Rf2 Rg3 17. Rh2 Rxg5 18. Rh7+ Kd6 19. Ra7 Nc6

16... Rh1 17. Kd2 Kd6 18. Rf2 c4 19. dxc4 dxc4 20.bxc4 Kc5 21. Bc2 b3
22. Bd3 b2 and wins.

This is not exhaustive analysis, just some illustrative lines that
should give you some idea of the winning methods possible in this
position.





  
Date: 31 Jan 2008 15:18:17
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
Thank you for all those lines , i will try them ..

I am happy with the game i played ..I thought i played well ..

If the computer would have made a different move we mite have
finished it but it was not going too and i was not going too so after
about 8 of the same moves i just said draw.



 
Date: 30 Jan 2008 17:41:38
From: help bot
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 8:24 pm, Taylor Kingston <tkings...@chittenden.com > wrote:

> White is totally busted here. A sample line: 1... Raf7 2. g4 Rf2 3.
> gxh5 d5 4. hxg6+ Kg8 5. exd5 R8f4 6. Bg4 (if 6. dxe6 Nf5#) 6... exd5
> 7. g7 Nc2+ 8. Rxc2 d4# 0-1


Unsurprisingly, Taylor Kingston has analyzed
*the wrong position*. In his usual, reckless and
often shallow manner, he seems to have set
the position up such that there is no White
pawn obstructing the f-file, as seen in his 2nd
move above, R-f2, which is *illegal*.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, it is quite unnecessary for Black to
advance his d-pawn here; the h-file and the
f-file are sufficient avenues of attack and/or
penetration.

In addition, trust me when I say that there
is no "mate-in-X", as given by the reckless
nonsense above; if there were, Fritz would
have spotted it easily. The key is to look at
the actual position-- something which
certain folks around here can't seem to grok.

This might help (but I somehow doubt it):

> White..
> Pawns on , A-4 , B-3, D-3, E-4, F-3, G-5 , G-2.


-- help bot






 
Date: 30 Jan 2008 17:24:12
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 10:09=A0am, Sin...@webtv.net (SAT W-7) wrote:
> I am white..
>
> =A0 White..
> Pawns on , A-4 , B-3, D-3, E-4,F-3, G-5 , G-2.
> Rooks on , C-I and H-I
> Bishop on D-I
> King on E-3
> .....................................................................
>
> Black computer on
>
> Pawns on , A-5 , B-4 , C-5, D-6, E-5, E-6 , G-6, H-5 ..
>
> Rooks on , A-7 and F-8 ..
> Knight on D-4 ..
> King on H-8 ..
>
> It was blacks move and it moved King to G-8.
> It was moving King to G-8 to H-8 and i was moving Rook from H-I to F-I
> ..
>
> It would not leave it's King on the H-file when i moved my rook to the
> H-file so after about 8 of the same moves each i finally said draw ....
>
> This computer is very simple to use , you do not have to register , just
> click on the play button and you can have white or black and just start
> playing it .....If i knew how to post it here i would..
>
> Can you guys see a way for me to crack it's defences ?

White is totally busted here. A sample line: 1... Raf7 2. g4 Rf2 3.
gxh5 d5 4. hxg6+ Kg8 5. exd5 R8f4 6. Bg4 (if 6. dxe6 Nf5#) 6... exd5
7. g7 Nc2+ 8. Rxc2 d4# 0-1



  
Date: 30 Jan 2008 21:32:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, Sin...@webtv.net (SAT W-7) wrote:

> Well if he moves rook to F-7 you have ME moving pawn g-2 to G-4 ??? I
> My move would be H-I to F-I rook..

Obviously, Taylor Kingston was analyzing the
wrong position, as he has Black's Rook leaping
in to f2 illegally, right away.


> On what i meant how to post , i was wondering how to post that on line
> chess computer here.
>
> I just sent it too you instead...Did you get it and play it ? Pretty
> easy to use .....

What I got was a link to a site where I could
play a correspondence style game-- starting
from move one; I saw no way to easily set up
a position and play forward from there.


> O and i can see your point on my bishop but i was not going to move that
> , i wanted to protect F-3 and B-3 pawns ..

Yeah, well... defense works if the attack
cannot break through, but here it can.

The p-h5 break is an attempt at counter-play.
Without counter-play, the defense crumbles
since Black threatens to break through on
either the h-file, or else the f-file.

Suppose for a moment that White is frozen;
Black is threatening ...R-h7, ...h4, ...R-f4, and
then ...Rh5, rounding up the g5 pawn.

Another plan for Black is to double Rooks on
the f-file, penetrate to f4, advance p-h4-- now
guarded from the side, then go back to the
h-file with the other Rook and come up to h5
to gather up a free pawn.

Any active play by White will likely open up
one of the files for a decisive penetration by
Black. In fact, Fritz happily sacrifices a pawn
right away to exploit the clumsy position of
White's stupid-looking Rook-- the one on the
far side of the moon. I don't like that, because
it is much too generous; the clumsy position
of White's men -- which get in one another's
way here -- is more or less a permanent
feature, so there's no big hurry.

Note that if White attempts to stop ...h4 by
playing g3 and leaving the Rook on the h-file,
f3 is weakened and the result is anything but
pretty; Black sumily "sacrifices" one of
his Rooks for around twenty-seven pawns (I'm
kidding) by ...Rxf3+, Bxf3 Rxf3+, Kd2 Nb3+.

Please note that *all* of my analysis starts
with the position you originally gave, before
the commentary regarding moving things
back and forth. I punched it in and clicked
on "Black to move", then let her rip. The
result was a toss-up between ...R-h7 and
...Rf7, both leading to tactical action which
is ultimately decisive in Black's favor. In
one case, White lost material but was able
to double Rooks on the h-file, yet his
desperate attempt to manage a perpetual
check failed horribly; Black ended up
advancing his pawns and winning easily.
Other tries seem even worse.


-- help bot





  
Date: 30 Jan 2008 20:36:54
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
Well if he moves rook to F-7 you have ME moving pawn g-2 to G-4 ??? I
My move would be H-I to F-I rook..

On what i meant how to post , i was wondering how to post that on line
chess computer here.

I just sent it too you instead...Did you get it and play it ? Pretty
easy to use .....

O and i can see your point on my bishop but i was not going to move that
, i wanted to protect F-3 and B-3 pawns ..

I wanted you and not your computer to finish the game .....But since you
used your Fritz , ill pass on playing you......



 
Date: 30 Jan 2008 16:50:36
From: help bot
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 7:04 pm, Sin...@webtv.net (SAT W-7) wrote:

> I have been studding the game and i do not see a weakness in my position

Okay, first of all, you are missing one pawn;
that's a weakness. Secondly, nearly all your
pawns are on the "wrong" color, which is to
say, the same color as your Bishop-- a purely
defensive piece as a result.


> , BUT then again i am not a IM or GM or even I500 ELO....

Here, you need only be nearly-an-IM,
nearly-a-GM or nearly-a-1500, so that's
OK.


> Helpbot , you take black and lets finish this game , want too ?

My computer has already shown me the
problems with White's position, so it would
not really be "you" versus "me"; because
of this "help", I believe I can win fairly easily.


> Helpbot how do you post in these groups ?

I exist in the ether that coalesced when
Al Gore first invented the internet. I post by
simply thinking of what I want to say, and
electrons the world over dance to my whims.


> I can post that computer , i have played it a few times and i think it
> is my ELO because i win a few and lose and few and now i just had a
> draw.

But you were losing; it is only because
computers can't think deeply enough to
envision a winning breakthrough that you
escaped with a draw. Looking at the
position, I see that you locked up a lot
of pawns, and that tends to make the
weak computers even weaker.


> You should play it ....It is very easy , just click on play and start
> to play it .....After you play it set the final position for us .....

By "it", I take it you want me to scan
the entire 'net with my psychic powers;
this could take some time, as the 'net
has grown rather larger than I expected,
back when I convinced Bill Gates that he
was wrong about there being no advantage
to a *graphical* user interface. That scum
not only made billions of dollars off of my
genius, but pouring acid in the wound, he
then gave much of it away, to charity.

Anyway, back to my old buddy Al Gore,
who invented the internet after I showed
him how one computer could be connected
to another, by demonstrating the technique
with jumper cables, one set connected to
a wall socket and the other ends clamped
to my ear and tongue... . Well, now that I
think about it, that wasn't the best idea I
ever had, but it's the principle that counts.

Trust me on this one: I can win as Black
without any trouble; you are objectively
lost. If you think you can learn something
from playing this out -- and losing like a
fish -- then I will be happy to let my chess
computer show you what it has already
shown me. To sum up: a classic case of
bad Bishop-itis, with an extra pawn thrown
in for good measure.


-- help bot






 
Date: 30 Jan 2008 16:04:39
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
I have been studding the game and i do not see a weakness in my position
, BUT then again i am not a IM or GM or even I500 ELO....

Helpbot , you take black and lets finish this game , want too ?

Helpbot how do you post in these groups ?
I can post that computer , i have played it a few times and i think it
is my ELO because i win a few and lose and few and now i just had a
draw.
You should play it ....It is very easy , just click on play and start
to play it .....After you play it set the final position for us .....



 
Date: 30 Jan 2008 12:29:16
From: help bot
Subject: Re: My final position vs on line chess computer , it was a draw.
On Jan 30, 10:09 am, Sin...@webtv.net (SAT W-7) wrote:
> I am white..
>
> White..
> Pawns on , A-4 , B-3, D-3, E-4,F-3, G-5 , G-2.
> Rooks on , C-I and H-I
> Bishop on D-I
> King on E-3
> .....................................................................
>
> Black computer on
>
> Pawns on , A-5 , B-4 , C-5, D-6, E-5, E-6 , G-6, H-5 ..
>
> Rooks on , A-7 and F-8 ..
> Knight on D-4 ..
> King on H-8 ..
>
> It was blacks move and it moved King to G-8.
> It was moving King to G-8 to H-8 and i was moving Rook from H-I to F-I
> ..
>
> It would not leave it's King on the H-file when i moved my rook to the
> H-file so after about 8 of the same moves each i finally said draw ....
>
> This computer is very simple to use , you do not have to register , just
> click on the play button and you can have white or black and just start
> playing it .....If i knew how to post it here i would..
>
> Can you guys see a way for me to crack it's defences ?

Defenses? Are you kidding?

White was very lucky to survive here, as Black
stands much better. Take your draw, and as the
song goes: don't worry; be happy!


-- help bot