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Main
Date: 01 Aug 2008 16:42:48
From: John Salerno
Subject: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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Hi guys. Extreme newbie here, so be gentle! :)
I'm reading Learn Chess: A Complete Course, and I'm at the part that
describes the Scholar's Mate. If you open this way:
1 e4 e5
2 Qh5
The book suggests five ways to defend the black pawn on e5 from attack by
the white queen. But since the point of the Scholar's Mate is to attack the
pawn on f7, wouldn't it make sense to play 2...Nf6? That threatens the queen
and forces White to change his plans a little (I think). Because in order to
set up the mate, White needs Bc4, and since that hasn't happened yet, the
...Nf6 move seems like a decent defense from allowing the queen to remain at
h5 until the bishop gets into position.
Or am I just missing a bigger picture here about preferring to defend the
pawn on e5?
Thanks!
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 14:09:05
From: Frisco Del Rosario
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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In article <[email protected] >,
"John Salerno" <[email protected] > wrote:
> wouldn't it make sense to play 2...Nf6?
I recommend it, given the principles that the best way to deal with a
threat -- if possible -- is to ignore it, and the best defense is a
counterattack.
So 3. Qxe5+ Be7 plus whichever moves gain time by attacking the white
queen later are what I suggest to students, even though other coaches
and teachers are insane about making defensive moves like 2...Nc6.
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 22:28:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 1, 9:16=A0pm, Tobias Heidelmann <[email protected]
dortmund.de > wrote:
> > 1. e4 e5
> > 2. Qh5 Nf6
> > 3. Qxe5+ Be7
> > 4.d4
That is a terrible move. White has enough
problems with his exposed Queen and weak
e-pawn, without adding fuel to the fire by
tossing up another pawn to be sacrificed on
the altar of "watch me, I'm attacking like a
genius!"
> 4.d4 Nc6
> 5.Qg3
> maybe black should to do something about the threat 6.Qxg7. if he does
> not, it might continue 5.Qg3 Nxd4 6.Qxg7 Bf6 7.Qg3, which looks ok to me
> for white. While black has a small development advantage the pawn
> structure on blacks kingside is a mess and white is still a pawn up.
You may want to forget about details
like pawn structure until you can spot
the crushing tactical blows and tally up
the carnage among the officers.
> If black decides to protect g7 however, white would respond with 6.d5
> and black would lose a tempo.
>
> an interesting (at least for me, a beginner) variation is
> 4.d4 Nc6
> 5.Qg3 Nxd4
> 6.Qxg3 Nxc2+
> 7.Kd1 Bf6
> 8.Qg3 Nxa1
> 9.e5
> and black should at least give up a piece, either knight or bishop.
> do you see a flaw in this variation?
Even without a chessboard, the obvious
fact of having hung a Rook leaps forward.
In addition, you missed ...Rg8 and as is
typical of this garbage "attack", White's
King ends up stuck in the middle, on d1,
his minor pieces all asleep on the back
rank.
> or have a better suggestion? i do
> not really understand the resulting position.
My observation is this: it is good that
you are not memorizing openings by-
rote (such as the Ruy Lopez, which
goes some twenty-nine moves deep);
however, this is going too far in the
opposite direction. Somewhere in-
between there is a happy medium, not
too much fat like a Big Mac, but not
raw spinach and carrots either.
The dogmatists will preach that you
can't launch a successful attack with
just your Queen-- not in the opening,
anyway. But I would try to explain it
in this way: Black has not made any
horrible mistakes yet, so the idea of
launching your Queen clear across the
ocean to "attack", all by her lonesome,
is just wrongheaded. In the early part
of the game, you need to focus on
piece development, not wild and crazy
speculative attacks.
In the middle-game, that's where you
try to co-ordinate your pieces to go at
some weakness already created, or
perhaps the "attack" can consist in
getting the opponent to create such a
weakness-- one which can be exploited
later on.
In short, this whole 2. Q-h5 thing is for
the birds. The best square for the White
Queen, after 1. e4 e5, is obviously d1, so
why surrender it? Let your least valuable
officers, your second lieutenants go into
battle first, along with a private or two. If
you don't like the hackneyed openings,
try a reasonably-sound gambit.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 13:01:56
From: Tobias Heidelmann
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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help bot schrieb:
> My observation is this: it is good that
> you are not memorizing openings by-
> rote (such as the Ruy Lopez, which
> goes some twenty-nine moves deep);
> however, this is going too far in the
> opposite direction. Somewhere in-
> between there is a happy medium, not
> too much fat like a Big Mac, but not
> raw spinach and carrots either.
>
thanks for comments. i have read those things in books, but sometimes i
have to try them in order to believe them. well, obviously i missed Rg8
which is a far better move than the ones i chose.
thanks again,
Tobias
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 22:04:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 1, 7:29=A0pm, Frisco Del Rosario <[email protected] > wrote:
> 1. e4 e5
> 2. Qh5 Nf6
> 3. Qxe5+ Be7
>
> > After the 3rd move i think black might castle to the king side. And g3
> > looks like a safe square for the white queen, putting preasure on black=
s
> > king side. Thus a possible continuation could be
> > 4.d4 o-o
> Not 4...0-0, because it doesn't threaten anything.
Not so fast, Freddie. Castling here does
in fact threaten something, namely: ...d5
(a double-attack on a fixed target) which
will win material and/or open the e-file (on
which rest both the White monarchs).
You need to look a bit deeper when
talking about "threats", for there are
ultra-obvious ones, and some that are a
bit more subtle.
> Black ought to play
> 4...Nc6, which recovers the d4-pawn right away. Just like 2...Nf6 was
> good because it threatens something (while 2...Nc6 does not)
Ditto. The move 2. ... Nc6 defers the threats
by one move, that's all.
> Chessplayers are never so comfortable as when their opponents are not
> threatening, but any threatening move might upset an opponent's brain,
> and then they can make all kinds of goofy mistakes.
In reality, posing simple problems to
which there is but one solution is the
best way to get even a weak player to
stut his tactical stuff. It is often when
given a free hand that the duffer will
reveal himself for what he truly is (a
duffer).
> Poker teachers remind poker players that checking and calling is a
> passive, losing strategy, while betting and raising is the way to win.
That's an interesting theory.
> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 is a passive call
Actually, would not Petroff's line be the
true "passive call" here?
> while 2...d5, 2...Nf6, 2...f5 are
> all aggressive stabs at the same pot.
Well, 2. Nf6 is a copy-cat move, where
White is allowed to make the first move
in a *symmetrical position*. If your
theory held water, it would support the
idea of 1. e4 Nf6! or maybe 1. e4 d5!,
not messing around until the second draw
to "raise the stakes", "double-down" or
whatever you want to "call" it.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 21:49:39
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 1, 5:09=A0pm, Frisco Del Rosario <[email protected] > wrote:
> So 3. Qxe5+ Be7 plus whichever moves gain time by attacking the white
> queen later are what I suggest to students, even though other coaches
> and teachers are insane about making defensive moves like 2...Nc6.
That move is not really "defensive"; it
is a natural developing move which just
happens to hold a key center pawn if
played immediately.
It is not clear what sort of advantage
sacrificing the pawn leads to, whereas
*not* sacrificing it leads to a rather
clear-cut scenario of embarrassment
for silly White's Queen.
Far from advocating "defensive" moves,
most chess teachers will be seen to be
dogmatic about piece development and
such (which explains why ...Nc6 has
been preferred-- see dogmatic rules
like "Knights before Bishops" and the
one about making just one pawn move
in the opening, for instance).
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 01:22:50
From: Tobias Heidelmann
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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Frisco Del Rosario schrieb:
> So 3. Qxe5+ Be7 plus whichever moves gain time by attacking the white
> queen later are what I suggest to students, even though other coaches
> and teachers are insane about making defensive moves like 2...Nc6.
After the 3rd move i think black might castle to the king side. And g3
looks like a safe square for the white queen, putting preasure on blacks
king side. Thus a possible continuation could be
4.d4 o-o
5.Bc4
and now i have difficulty finding a good move for black
5... Bd6 gives white the opportunity for a pawn fork
5... Nc6 makes d5 AND e5 uncomfortable for black
5... d6 just makes the queen retreat.
whatever the options i think the queen might retreat safely to g3 or (if
attacked again) to d3 or e3 and white will have a strong control of the
center with possible advances e5 or d5 which threaten at least one other
black piece and force it to move again. So white might be able to regain
the tempo lost due to threats to the queen.
On the other hand, if black decides against castling and immediately
attacks the queen, the situation does not change much. Due to whites
strong control of the center c6 and f6 are constantly threatended by a
possible advance e5 or d5.
Either way, i would feel comfortable playing white in this situation. Up
a pawn, control of the center and a possible retreat for the queen (at
most loss of a tempo). I think that is sufficient reason to discourage
2... Nc6.
But, i am rather new to chess and inexperienced. What would you suggest,
how should the game proceed after move 3?
Tobias
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 16:29:12
From: Frisco Del Rosario
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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In article <[email protected] >,
Tobias Heidelmann <[email protected] > wrote:
> Frisco Del Rosario schrieb:
1. e4 e5
2. Qh5 Nf6
> > So 3. Qxe5+ Be7 plus whichever moves gain time by attacking the white
> > queen later are what I suggest to students, even though other coaches
> > and teachers are insane about making defensive moves like 2...Nc6.
3. Qxe5+ Be7
> After the 3rd move i think black might castle to the king side. And g3
> looks like a safe square for the white queen, putting preasure on blacks
> king side. Thus a possible continuation could be
> 4.d4 o-o
Not 4...0-0, because it doesn't threaten anything. Black ought to play
4...Nc6, which recovers the d4-pawn right away. Just like 2...Nf6 was
good because it threatens something (while 2...Nc6 does not), 4...Nc6 is
good because it threatens something (while 4...0-0 does not).
Chessplayers are never so comfortable as when their opponents are not
threatening, but any threatening move might upset an opponent's brain,
and then they can make all kinds of goofy mistakes.
Poker teachers remind poker players that checking and calling is a
passive, losing strategy, while betting and raising is the way to win.
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 is a passive call, while 2...d5, 2...Nf6, 2...f5 are
all aggressive stabs at the same pot.
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 03:16:13
From: Tobias Heidelmann
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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Frisco Del Rosario schrieb:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tobias Heidelmann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Frisco Del Rosario schrieb:
>
> 1. e4 e5
> 2. Qh5 Nf6
> 3. Qxe5+ Be7
>> 4.d4 o-o
>
> Not 4...0-0, because it doesn't threaten anything. Black ought to play
> 4...Nc6, which recovers the d4-pawn right away.
what about
4.d4 Nc6
5.Qg3
maybe black should to do something about the threat 6.Qxg7. if he does
not, it might continue 5.Qg3 Nxd4 6.Qxg7 Bf6 7.Qg3, which looks ok to me
for white. While black has a small development advantage the pawn
structure on blacks kingside is a mess and white is still a pawn up.
If black decides to protect g7 however, white would respond with 6.d5
and black would lose a tempo.
an interesting (at least for me, a beginner) variation is
4.d4 Nc6
5.Qg3 Nxd4
6.Qxg3 Nxc2+
7.Kd1 Bf6
8.Qg3 Nxa1
9.e5
and black should at least give up a piece, either knight or bishop.
do you see a flaw in this variation? or have a better suggestion? i do
not really understand the resulting position.
Tobias
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 18:30:13
From: Frisco Del Rosario
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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In article <[email protected] >,
Tobias Heidelmann <[email protected] > wrote:
> 1. e4 e5
> 2. Qh5 Nf6
> 3. Qxe5+ Be7
> 4.d4 Nc6
> what about 5.Qg3
> maybe black should to do something about the threat 6.Qxg7.
Have I already written in this thread that the best thing to do about a
threat is ignore it, if possible, and you're just not paying attention?
5...Nxd4, and if 6. Qxg7, then 6...Rg8 and Black wins.
You've spent too much time dealing with the opening now. Learn the basic
endgames.
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 12:57:26
From: Tobias Heidelmann
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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Frisco Del Rosario schrieb:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tobias Heidelmann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> 1. e4 e5
>> 2. Qh5 Nf6
>> 3. Qxe5+ Be7
>> 4.d4 Nc6
>> what about 5.Qg3
>> maybe black should to do something about the threat 6.Qxg7.
>
> Have I already written in this thread that the best thing to do about a
> threat is ignore it, if possible, and you're just not paying attention?
just saying it and not explaining why it is possible to ignore the
threat does not help much.. obviously i missed Rg8.
Tobias
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Date: 01 Aug 2008 13:58:10
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 1, 4:42=A0pm, "John Salerno" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Hi guys. Extreme newbie here, so be gentle! :)
>
> I'm reading Learn Chess: A Complete Course, and I'm at the part that
> describes the Scholar's Mate. If you open this way:
>
> 1 e4 e5
> 2 Qh5
>
> The book suggests five ways to defend the black pawn on e5 from attack by
> the white queen. But since the point of the Scholar's Mate is to attack t=
he
> pawn on f7, wouldn't it make sense to play 2...Nf6? That threatens the qu=
een
> and forces White to change his plans a little (I think). Because in order=
to
> set up the mate, White needs Bc4, and since that hasn't happened yet, the
> ...Nf6 move seems like a decent defense from allowing the queen to remain=
at
> h5 until the bishop gets into position.
>
> Or am I just missing a bigger picture here about preferring to defend the
> pawn on e5?
You can in fact sacrifice the e5 pawn to gain
a lead in development-- if you are willing to bet
that you're good enough to make lead that
count. (But White could reply Qh4, declining
the sacrifice.)
The simplest way to refute this nonsense is
to develop a piece while defending the e5 pawn
at the same time by ...Nc6, saving Nf6 for later.
For instance:
1. e4 e5
2. Qh5? Nc6
3. Bc4 g6
4. Qf3 Nf6
5. Qb3 Qe7
=2E..and the preposterous "attack" is over.
"Scholar's mate" is a horrible misnomer;
it would seem more appropriate to call this
sort of thing the kindergartener's mate.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 19:25:20
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 2, 9:26=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> =A0 It's a joke, bot. Fool's Mate takes two moves, Scholar's Mate takes
> four. The scholar lasts twice as long as the fool.
> =A0 The earliest known reference to the term in English is in Arthur
> Saul's "The Famous Game of Chesse-play," 1614.
In "English", you say? Dr. IMnes will
kindly explain how this could be, since
that language supposedly did not yet
exist in 1614-- according to alleged
authorities dragged here against their
wills to ad hominize the world-famous
Dr. IMnes, the world's foremost Andean
scholar.
As I told that numskull, j-something,
the term "English" is often used to refer
(not reefer) to that evolving language we
know today as modern English-- a
living, mutating entity which will not "die"
until we blow ourselves up, perhaps in
another hundred years or so. He seems
to like raisins, and much prefers them to
reasons.
Anyway, I had never heard of Arthur
Saul. Perhaps it was a popular opening
back then, but today's top players seem
to prefer the Sicilian Defense or the Ruy
Lopez, saving "shock and awe" moves
like Q-R5! for the middle-game.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 09:29:51
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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> "Scholar's mate" is a horrible misnomer;
> it would seem more appropriate to call this
> sort of thing the kindergartener's mate.
>
Perhaps it is so named because it is slightly move Sophisticated
than a Fool's Mate.
I thought Nakamura had played it recently.
There's a famous line inthe Scotch where black plays 4 ... Qh4. He can
sometimes win the e-pawn.
IT'S good fun and there's a good book on if.
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Date: 02 Aug 2008 06:26:37
From:
Subject: Re: Newbie question about Scholar's Mate
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On Aug 1, 4:58=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> =A0 "Scholar's mate" is a horrible misnomer;
> it would seem more appropriate to call this
> sort of thing the kindergartener's mate.
It's a joke, bot. Fool's Mate takes two moves, Scholar's Mate takes
four. The scholar lasts twice as long as the fool.
The earliest known reference to the term in English is in Arthur
Saul's "The Famous Game of Chesse-play," 1614.
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