Main
Date: 04 Feb 2008 22:49:12
From: Sanny
Subject: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
Here is a game with Help Bot. I do not understand why Normal Level
gave away its pawn for no reasion?

By playing 12. d5 Black played 12..... cxd5 and won a pawn. Is it a
correct move only advantage white got is Black Pawns become Double
Pawn and Isolated. And Black was able to give Check to Help Bot.

Is Normal Level playing wrong moves.?


Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM15691&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)

1. e2-e4{0} c7-c6{6}
2. d2-d4{0} d7-d5{2}
3. Nb1-c3{0} d5-e4{6}
4. Nc3-e4{0} Nb8-d7{10}
5. Qd1-d3{230} Ng8-f6{64}
6. Bc1-e3{84} Nf6-e4{32}
7. Qd3-e4{324} Nd7-f6{36}
8. Qe4-f4{86} Nf6-d5{18}
9. Qf4-e5{322} Nd5-e3{84}
10. f2-e3{110} Qd8-d6{96}
11. Qe5-d6{322} e7-d6{4}
12. d4-d5{196} c6-d5{64} {Is it a correct move by white}
13. Bf1-b5{222} Ke8-e7{78}
14. Ng1-f3{322} g7-g6{66}
15. Ke1-c1{164} Bc8-e6{60}
16. Rd1-d3{226} Bf8-g7{180}
17. Rh1-f1{322} Ra8-c8{82}
18. Nf3-d4{236} Rc8-c5{134}
19. Bb5-a4{98} Rh8-b8{188}
20. a2-a3{180} b7-b5{62}
21. b2-b4{84} Rc5-c8{718}
22. Nd4-b5{84} Be6-d7{128}
23. Rd3-d5{206} Bd7-c6{48}
24. Rf1-d1{150} Bc6-d5{82}
25. Rd1-d5{146} a7-a6{74}
26. Nb5-a7{116} Rc8-c3{124}
27. Na7-c6{162} Ke7-e6{58}
28. Rd5-d3{254} Rb8-c8{148}
29. Rd3-c3{84} Bg7-c3{6}
30. e3-e4{152} Rc8-c7{200}
31. Kc1-b1{322} h7-h5{30}
32. h2-h3{206} h5-h4{26}
33. Kb1-a2{136} Ke6-f6{138}
34. Nc6-b8{264} Rc7-a7{64}
35. Nb8-c6{90} Ra7-a8{46}
36. Ba4-b3{188} Ra8-c8{266}
37. Bb3-d5{322} g6-g5{394}
38. Ka2-b1{152} g5-g4{46}
39. h3-g4{116} Rc8-g8{72}
40. a3-a4{174} Bc3-b4{64}
41. e4-e5{106} d6-e5{26}
42. g4-g5{98} Kf6-g5{50}
43. Nc6-e5{204} Bb4-c3{68}
44. Ne5-f7{218} Kg5-f4{34}
45. a4-a5{112} Rg8-b8{84}
46. Kb1-c1{100} Kf4-e3{76}
47. Bd5-b3{124} Ke3-f2{74}
48. Bb3-c4{148} Kf2-g2{52}
49. Bc4-d5{104} Kg2-f2{60}
50. Nf7-g5{98} Kf2-e3{42}
51. Ng5-e4{144} Bc3-a5{94}
52. Bd5-c6{162} h4-h3{34}
53. c2-c3{160} Rb8-g8{84}
54. Kc1-c2{124} Rg8-g2{30}
55. Ne4-f2{322} Rg2-f2{22}
56. Kc2-d1{306} Ba5-c3{144}
57. Bc6-b7{156} h3-h2{52}
58. Kd1-c1{180} a6-a5{68}
59. Bb7-d5{102} a5-a4{36}
60. Kc1-d1{132} Ke3-d3{52}
61. Bd5-h1{182}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM15691&game=Chess

Help Bot game is improving day by day. I am amajed to see him winning
against Normal Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date: 08 Feb 2008 06:39:37
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
On Feb 7, 4:46=A0am, help bot <nomorech...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 3:32 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >38. Ka2-b1{152}
>
> > > =A0 Here it is again-- the running for a corner
> > > when that is precisely the wrong thing to do!
>
> > > =A0 In the endgame, the King must come out
> > > from hiding and take up the sword.
>
> > I found King at a2 was doing nothing. And b1 & a1 both are corner, It
> > just went from one corner to other corner. There was no good move left
> > for black. It was already one point down, So any attacking move would
> > not succedd, So it was playing in defensive mode. Can you suggest any
> > good line at 38. Ka2-b1{152}
>
> =A0 Certainly. =A0At the point where theGetClub
> program ran its King for the safety of the
> corner, what it ought to have been doing is
> advancing its Queen-side pawns as rapidly
> as possible (without losing any of them).
>
> =A0 First, I like K-b3 to drive the annoying
> Bishop away and free the c-pawn from
> being blocked. =A0Then the White pawns
> must be advanced toward the Queening
> squares; there is no time for dilly-dallying.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =A0 This was a very tough game for me; I may
> have to stop experimenting with openings I
> don't know well, like the Caro-Kan. =A0I think
> it was the previous one where I, as Black,
> played both ...e6 and ...c6, blocking in my
> Queen's Bishop. =A0In that game I got away
> with ...a6, ...b5, ...Bb7 and ...c5, thus
> escaping the bind and freeing my QB, but
> I was, perhaps, lucky. =A0Certainly, that "felt
> wrong"-- like the way Jimmy Sherwin
> played against Bobby Fischer in the game
> Larry Evans included in a recent link in
> another thread; in that game, Black tried
> the very passive ...b6 and ...d6, getting
> himself into a mess both in the center and
> on the long diagonal; BF slaughtered him
> nicely. (That game was a KIA[?], not a
> Caro-Kan, of course.)
>
> =A0 One thing I have learned from watching
> the way strongchessprograms handle
> things, is that only rarely do passed
> pawns become overextended and result
> in loss of the game; far more often, their
> rapid, unrelenting advance can result in a
> win (or a saving draw).
>
> =A0 Another interesting thing I learned from
> this game in particular, is that near the
> end, where I obtained passed pawns on
> opposite sides of the board and advanced
> them both to overwork the opponent's
> Bishop, I missed not one but several
> opportunities to force checkmate in five
> or six moves! =A0The trick was to swing my
> Rook to the opposite side, then step
> forward with my King-- threatening mate
> next move; this forces the spite-check
> B-e4+, I capture the B, then White moves
> and I step back up for a mate-next-move.
>
> =A0 It is very discouraging to see that I miss
> such simple things, but then, so do many
> other humans; world champion Kramnik,
> for instance. =A0:>D
>
> =A0 -- help bot

Today a lot of improvement was done, Play a few games and tell your
opinion about the game played by GetClub Chess.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Today a bug was removed which was causing it to play weak moves.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 06 Feb 2008 15:46:07
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
On Feb 6, 3:32 am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> > > >38. Ka2-b1{152}
>
> > Here it is again-- the running for a corner
> > when that is precisely the wrong thing to do!
>
> > In the endgame, the King must come out
> > from hiding and take up the sword.
>
> I found King at a2 was doing nothing. And b1 & a1 both are corner, It
> just went from one corner to other corner. There was no good move left
> for black. It was already one point down, So any attacking move would
> not succedd, So it was playing in defensive mode. Can you suggest any
> good line at 38. Ka2-b1{152}

Certainly. At the point where the GetClub
program ran its King for the safety of the
corner, what it ought to have been doing is
advancing its Queen-side pawns as rapidly
as possible (without losing any of them).

First, I like K-b3 to drive the annoying
Bishop away and free the c-pawn from
being blocked. Then the White pawns
must be advanced toward the Queening
squares; there is no time for dilly-dallying.

------------------------------------------------------------

This was a very tough game for me; I may
have to stop experimenting with openings I
don't know well, like the Caro-Kan. I think
it was the previous one where I, as Black,
played both ...e6 and ...c6, blocking in my
Queen's Bishop. In that game I got away
with ...a6, ...b5, ...Bb7 and ...c5, thus
escaping the bind and freeing my QB, but
I was, perhaps, lucky. Certainly, that "felt
wrong"-- like the way Jimmy Sherwin
played against Bobby Fischer in the game
Larry Evans included in a recent link in
another thread; in that game, Black tried
the very passive ...b6 and ...d6, getting
himself into a mess both in the center and
on the long diagonal; BF slaughtered him
nicely. (That game was a KIA[?], not a
Caro-Kan, of course.)

One thing I have learned from watching
the way strong chess programs handle
things, is that only rarely do passed
pawns become overextended and result
in loss of the game; far more often, their
rapid, unrelenting advance can result in a
win (or a saving draw).

Another interesting thing I learned from
this game in particular, is that near the
end, where I obtained passed pawns on
opposite sides of the board and advanced
them both to overwork the opponent's
Bishop, I missed not one but several
opportunities to force checkmate in five
or six moves! The trick was to swing my
Rook to the opposite side, then step
forward with my King-- threatening mate
next move; this forces the spite-check
B-e4+, I capture the B, then White moves
and I step back up for a mate-next-move.

It is very discouraging to see that I miss
such simple things, but then, so do many
other humans; world champion Kramnik,
for instance. : >D


-- help bot









 
Date: 06 Feb 2008 00:32:32
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
> > >38. Ka2-b1{152}
>
> =A0 Here it is again-- the running for a corner
> when that is precisely the wrong thing to do!
>
> =A0 In the endgame, the King must come out
> from hiding and take up the sword.

I found King at a2 was doing nothing. And b1 & a1 both are corner, It
just went from one corner to other corner. There was no good move left
for black. It was already one point down, So any attacking move would
not succedd, So it was playing in defensive mode. Can you suggest any
good line at 38. Ka2-b1{152}


Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 05 Feb 2008 19:59:19
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
On Feb 5, 10:20 am, tin Brown <

 
Date: 05 Feb 2008 17:27:22
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
On Feb 5, 12:22 pm, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> > >Here is a game with Help Bot. I do not understand why Normal Level
> > >gave away its pawn for no reasion?
>
> > >By playing 12. d5 Black played 12..... cxd5 and won a pawn. Is it a
> > >correct move only advantage white got is Black Pawns become Double
>
> > It is weaker than it needs to be. Material was given away for nothing.
> > Almost any normal developing move or O-O-O would be better. It wasn't a
> > good move but it didn't cause much trouble either.
>
> Here is the detail of Why it hang the pawn.
>
> 1. It calculated 1/2 Point for Double Pawn
> 2. It gave 1/2 point for king comming out to second rank without
> Chastling.
>
> So it equate 1/2 + 1/2 points to cover the Pawn loss.

As for the doubling of pawns, it is an inconvenience
to Black, and it is no easy matter to hold on to the
extra pawn without compromising Black's position.
Still, unless the program "sees" how to regain the
sacrificed pawn or equivalent compensation, it is
unwise for it to make such a positional sacrifice.

If you step forward just a few moves, you will see
that Black's King is no more in danger than White's--
and White has castled. Once the Queens are off the
board, it's not always clear whether a centralized
King is a plus or a minus; often as not it is an
advantage, since valuable tempos are saved when a
few more pieces are exchanged.


-- help bot


 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level


 
Date: 05 Feb 2008 09:22:01
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level
> >Here is a game with Help Bot. I do not understand why Normal Level
> >gave away its pawn for no reasion?
>
> >By playing 12. d5 Black played 12..... cxd5 and won a pawn. Is it a
> >correct move only advantage white got is Black Pawns become Double
>
> It is weaker than it needs to be. Material was given away for nothing.
> Almost any normal developing move or O-O-O would be better. It wasn't a
> good move but it didn't cause much trouble either.

Here is the detail of Why it hang the pawn.

1. It calculated 1/2 Point for Double Pawn
2. It gave 1/2 point for king comming out to second rank without
Chastling.

So it equate 1/2 + 1/2 points to cover the Pawn loss.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html




 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Please Analyze Game with Help Bot vs Normal Level