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Date: 17 Apr 2008 15:17:00
From: Rich Hutnik
Subject: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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Anyone have any idea what is going on with Chess in Canada?
I happened to find these articles on the Chess Federation of Canada:
http://members5.boardhost.com/ChessTalk/msg/1208372663.html
http://www.chess.ca/Gls/07-08GL7.pdf
Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
to be a member?
People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
Federation also (although it isn't as bad).
If anyone wonders why I am concerned about chess, and believe that
even small issues (aka, excessive drawishness on the highest level)
are important, it is because of things like this. If a game can't
support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
time being sustainable.
Anyone have any info and insights into this?
- Rich
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Date: 19 Apr 2008 14:48:40
From: Quadibloc
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 18, 8:35 pm, Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> As far as Reversi goes, Becker Associates (they own
> the game) makes sure there is a viable and functioning association
> over it. Considering Othello has sold over 30 million copies, that
> says something.
Somebody owns Othello, yes. Reversi, however, was allowed to lapse
into the public domain... and guess who made Reversi sets in England?
Jacques. The same guys who gave us the Staunton chess pieces.
John Savard
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 19:35:32
From: Rich Hutnik
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 18, 9:33 pm, Quadibloc <[email protected] > wrote:
> He seems to be saying that if Chess in Canada were in the position of,
> say, Nine Men's Morris in Canada, or Parcheesi in Canada, or Chinese
> Checkers in Canada, Chess would still be fine.
And how many of these games have recognized champions at them?
> Checkers and Reversi have their associations, but many who play those
> games are hardly aware of their existence. There is, I'm sure, some
> sort of Go association in Canada too, although I wouldn't know what it
> is or where to find it. There probably is one for Chinese Chess, but
> I'm doubtful about Shogi.
I believe XiangQi is part of the WXF in North America. As far as
Checkers go (I am actually working with the American Checker
Federation now), they will be looking to do more marketing and
promoting now. As far as Reversi goes, Becker Associates (they own
the game) makes sure there is a viable and functioning association
over it. Considering Othello has sold over 30 million copies, that
says something.
> As for FIDE, I thought that since it was carted off to one of the
> former Soviet Republics, the USCF and other national chess bodies had
> made arrangements to leave it and, say, join the PGA or something. I'm
> surprised that this isn't the case.
You mean they are looking to start one of their own governing
organizations to replace FIDE? I heard that there was something with
issues regarding some recognized world champ in chess. Maybe this has
something to do with it. Anyhow, I will still stand by that just
about any game with professionals in it, will end up having an
association related. This even goes with boxing, which probably has
too many such organizations.
- Rich
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 18:33:21
From: Quadibloc
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 18, 10:23 am, Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Apr 18, 5:48 am, David Richerby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > The falling membership of national associations doesn't particularly
> > concern me. The associations just don't seem to be relevant to even
> > the regular tournament player, let alone the average guy who likes to
> > play the occasional game of chess against his friends or online.
>
> So, you are saying that Chess is fine in Canada? Perhaps Canada will
> be the first of multiple nations that will happen to cause FIDE to no
> longer be relevant as more and more get themselves delisted?
He seems to be saying that if Chess in Canada were in the position of,
say, Nine Men's Morris in Canada, or Parcheesi in Canada, or Chinese
Checkers in Canada, Chess would still be fine.
Checkers and Reversi have their associations, but many who play those
games are hardly aware of their existence. There is, I'm sure, some
sort of Go association in Canada too, although I wouldn't know what it
is or where to find it. There probably is one for Chinese Chess, but
I'm doubtful about Shogi.
As for FIDE, I thought that since it was carted off to one of the
former Soviet Republics, the USCF and other national chess bodies had
made arrangements to leave it and, say, join the PGA or something. I'm
surprised that this isn't the case.
John Savard
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 09:23:57
From: Rich Hutnik
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 18, 5:48 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> What advantage does membership of an organization like the CFC confer?
> I can play chess for free and get a rating on the internet. I can
> read chess websites for articles and information. I can play against
> people face-to-face by joining a local club and/or being lucky enough
> to have friends who are interested in the game. Here in the UK, I can
> play in OTB tournaments and get a rating from the ECF for a small fee
> per game that's included in the tournament entry fee. (ECF members
> typically get a discount on tournament entry that I believe slightly
> more than covers the rating fee.)
Ok, so what it looks like then is Chess in North America needs to
change things a bit, and have it so that you can play in an
association chess tournament, but if you become an association member,
you need a discount.
Do any other sports require amateurs to join some kind of national or
> regional association as a condition for taking part in competitions?
Sports that operate on a professional level normally have a governing
body for them. There is an exception of poker, but that is an
exception. Poker has owners of main events that work in that manner.
What happens with the CFC if it folds, is that Canada would have a
governing body for chess. This means it will have no voice in Canada
to attempt to market it. To have a champion in a country over a given
game, don't you need some sort of governing body to make the champion
valid?
> The falling membership of national associations doesn't particularly
> concern me. The associations just don't seem to be relevant to even
> the regular tournament player, let alone the average guy who likes to
> play the occasional game of chess against his friends or online.
So, you are saying that Chess is fine in Canada? Perhaps Canada will
be the first of multiple nations that will happen to cause FIDE to no
longer be relevant as more and more get themselves delisted?
- Rich
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Date: 19 Apr 2008 16:32:50
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What advantage does membership of an organization like the CFC
>> confer? [...] Here in the UK, I can play in OTB tournaments and
>> get a rating from the ECF for a small fee per game that's included
>> in the tournament entry fee. (ECF members typically get a discount
>> on tournament entry that I believe slightly more than covers the
>> rating fee.)
>
> Ok, so what it looks like then is Chess in North America needs to
> change things a bit, and have it so that you can play in an
> association chess tournament, but if you become an association
> member, you need a discount.
A discount seems like a good idea. Whatever form it takes, there has
to be some relevant incentive to join the association if people are
going to join it. I am not a member of the ECF because I feel no
incentive to join; this doesn't seem to be a problem for me or the
ECF. The USCF, on the other hand, seems to believe that everybody who
wants to play chess in the USA with any degree of seriousness should
be a member; this position seems untenable to me.
>> Do any other sports require amateurs to join some kind of national or
>> regional association as a condition for taking part in competitions?
>
> Sports that operate on a professional level normally have a governing
> body for them. There is an exception of poker, but that is an
> exception.
And boxing which, at the last count, had 1,487 governing bodies.
> What happens with the CFC if it folds, is that Canada would
^ not! :-)
> have
> a governing body for chess. This means it will have no voice in
> Canada to attempt to market it.
Not necessarily. Art, for example, doesn't have a governing body but
it still has a voice.
> To have a champion in a country over a given game, don't you need
> some sort of governing body to make the champion valid?
Not at all -- you just need people to accept the champion. Remember
that the chess world championship was not organized by any governing
body until 1948 but nobody disputes the status of Steinitz, Lasker,
Capablanca, Alekhine and Euwe as world champions of their time.
>> The falling membership of national associations doesn't
>> particularly concern me. The associations just don't seem to be
>> relevant to even the regular tournament player, let alone the
>> average guy who likes to play the occasional game of chess against
>> his friends or online.
>
> So, you are saying that Chess is fine in Canada?
No -- I know nothing of the state of chess in Canada. All I'm saying
is that your reports of the bad state of the Canadian federation don't
necessarily mean that *chess* has a problem in Canada.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Accelerated Newspaper (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a daily broadsheet but it's twice
as fast!
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 11:57:06
From: Hugh Brodie
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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Refer to http://www.chesstalk.com for a heated discussion on this topic.
"Rich Hutnik" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:cb7e91e2-aa9e-4176-96b3-b47bce57edac@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> Anyone have any idea what is going on with Chess in Canada?
>
> I happened to find these articles on the Chess Federation of Canada:
> http://members5.boardhost.com/ChessTalk/msg/1208372663.html
> http://www.chess.ca/Gls/07-08GL7.pdf
>
> Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
> from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
> to be a member?
>
> People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
> under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
> Federation also (although it isn't as bad).
>
> If anyone wonders why I am concerned about chess, and believe that
> even small issues (aka, excessive drawishness on the highest level)
> are important, it is because of things like this. If a game can't
> support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
> time being sustainable.
>
> Anyone have any info and insights into this?
>
> - Rich
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 10:48:04
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
> from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
> to be a member?
>
> People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
> under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
> Federation also (although it isn't as bad). [...] If a game can't
> support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
> time being sustainable.
What advantage does membership of an organization like the CFC confer?
I can play chess for free and get a rating on the internet. I can
read chess websites for articles and information. I can play against
people face-to-face by joining a local club and/or being lucky enough
to have friends who are interested in the game. Here in the UK, I can
play in OTB tournaments and get a rating from the ECF for a small fee
per game that's included in the tournament entry fee. (ECF members
typically get a discount on tournament entry that I believe slightly
more than covers the rating fee.)
Do any other sports require amateurs to join some kind of national or
regional association as a condition for taking part in competitions?
The falling membership of national associations doesn't particularly
concern me. The associations just don't seem to be relevant to even
the regular tournament player, let alone the average guy who likes to
play the occasional game of chess against his friends or online.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Flammable Tree (TM): it's like a tree
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ but it burns really easily!
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Date: 20 Apr 2008 11:46:04
From: John Savard
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On 18 Apr 2008 10:48:04 +0100 (BST), David Richerby
<[email protected] > wrote, in part:
>The falling membership of national associations doesn't particularly
>concern me. The associations just don't seem to be relevant to even
>the regular tournament player, let alone the average guy who likes to
>play the occasional game of chess against his friends or online.
It's certainly true that the "average guy" you refer to is not affected
by the fate of national associations.
But when it gets to the ordinary tournament player, I don't think that
the health of the national associations is irrelevant any longer. Yes,
they aren't the ones to partake of the gravy that revitalizing the
organizational level of chess would start flowing. Rather, they would
benefit in other ways.
If the country were to become chess-minded, then smaller towns and
cities would have their own chess tournaments. Local chess clubs would
have more members.
John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
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Date: 19 Apr 2008 02:13:16
From:
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On 18 Apr 2008 10:48:04 +0100 (BST), David Richerby
<[email protected] > wrote:
>What advantage does membership of an organization like the CFC confer?
>I can play chess for free and get a rating on the internet. I can
>read chess websites for articles and information. I can play against
>people face-to-face by joining a local club and/or being lucky enough
>to have friends who are interested in the game. Here in the UK, I can
>play in OTB tournaments and get a rating from the ECF for a small fee
>per game that's included in the tournament entry fee. (ECF members
>typically get a discount on tournament entry that I believe slightly
>more than covers the rating fee.)
>
When I play a CFC rated tournament I pay $10 less if I am a member of
the CFC
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 11:07:01
From: David Kane
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:S3A*[email protected]...
> Rich Hutnik <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
>> from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
>> to be a member?
>>
>> People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
>> under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
>> Federation also (although it isn't as bad). [...] If a game can't
>> support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
>> time being sustainable.
>
> What advantage does membership of an organization like the CFC confer?
> I can play chess for free and get a rating on the internet. I can
> read chess websites for articles and information. I can play against
> people face-to-face by joining a local club and/or being lucky enough
> to have friends who are interested in the game. Here in the UK, I can
> play in OTB tournaments and get a rating from the ECF for a small fee
> per game that's included in the tournament entry fee. (ECF members
> typically get a discount on tournament entry that I believe slightly
> more than covers the rating fee.)
>
> Do any other sports require amateurs to join some kind of national or
> regional association as a condition for taking part in competitions?
In the States, most sports have one or more national organizations
that sanction competition, and many require individual membership.
Of course, there are often opportunities to participate in those sports
outside of these umbrellas as well. These organizations operate under
many different models.
Few seem as unsuccessful as the US chess federation, though.
> The falling membership of national associations doesn't particularly
> concern me. The associations just don't seem to be relevant to even
> the regular tournament player, let alone the average guy who likes to
> play the occasional game of chess against his friends or online.
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Flammable Tree (TM): it's like a tree
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ but it burns really easily!
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Date: 18 Apr 2008 03:32:17
From:
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:17:00 -0700 (PDT), Rich Hutnik
<[email protected] > wrote:
>Anyone have any idea what is going on with Chess in Canada?
>
>I happened to find these articles on the Chess Federation of Canada:
>http://members5.boardhost.com/ChessTalk/msg/1208372663.html
>http://www.chess.ca/Gls/07-08GL7.pdf
>
>Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
>from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
>to be a member?
>
>People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
>under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
>Federation also (although it isn't as bad).
>
>If anyone wonders why I am concerned about chess, and believe that
>even small issues (aka, excessive drawishness on the highest level)
>are important, it is because of things like this. If a game can't
>support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
>time being sustainable.
>
>Anyone have any info and insights into this?
>
>- Rich
I had a pretty good laugh at that CFC article. I tried twice to order
a clock from their website and it wouldn't process the order. Their
online business doesnt work at all!! Several other people I know have
also had this problem. pretty mickeymouse setup.
As for the magazine, It is pretty decent, but considering its
distribution numbers, its far too flashy for the amount of members. I
for one would be just as happy with an online magazine.
Here in BC, the number of tournaments has gone down. People aren't
organizing tournaments much anymore (except for the interior!) At my
local club (in a town of about 16000) I am the only person who is even
remotely interested in tournaments and I am the only CFC member.
J.Lohner
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Date: 17 Apr 2008 19:05:32
From: Quadibloc
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 17, 6:20 pm, Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> Other associations have less and they function. Just curious what
> might of happened up there that led to this state.
I don't know, but I know that the publication they issue (En Passant)
- which our public library gets, along with Chess Life - is,
necessarily, with one-tenth the people subscribing or thereabouts -
not as interesting as Chess Life. (Although it seems to have improved
greatly in recent years.) Since that is one of the main perquesites
for joining, it probably means they don't have as many members who
join just for the magazine but are not interested in playing chess
actively in rated events.
John Savard
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Date: 17 Apr 2008 17:20:10
From: Rich Hutnik
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 17, 6:40 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 17, 5:17 pm, Rich Hutnik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Anyone have any idea what is going on with Chess in Canada?
>
> > I happened to find these articles on the Chess Federation of Canada:http://members5.boardhost.com/ChessTalk/msg/1208372663.htmlhttp://www...
>
> > Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
> > from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
> > to be a member?
>
> > People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
> > under. I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
> > Federation also (although it isn't as bad).
>
> > If anyone wonders why I am concerned about chess, and believe that
> > even small issues (aka, excessive drawishness on the highest level)
> > are important, it is because of things like this. If a game can't
> > support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
> > time being sustainable.
>
> > Anyone have any info and insights into this?
>
> > - Rich
>
> 1,000 members isn't enough.
Other associations have less and they function. Just curious what
might of happened up there that led to this state.
- Rich
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Date: 17 Apr 2008 15:40:01
From:
Subject: Re: What is going on with chess in Canada?
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On Apr 17, 5:17=A0pm, Rich Hutnik <[email protected] > wrote:
> Anyone have any idea what is going on with Chess in Canada?
>
> I happened to find these articles on the Chess Federation of Canada:http:/=
/members5.boardhost.com/ChessTalk/msg/1208372663.htmlhttp://www.chess.ca/Gls=
/07-08GL7.pdf
>
> Talk of restructuring, and potentially going under, borrowing money
> from FIDE in order to stay afloat and make their payments to continue
> to be a member?
>
> People are speculating the Chess Federation of Canada may be going
> under. =A0I am seeing other stories regarding FIDE and the U.S Chess
> Federation also (although it isn't as bad).
>
> If anyone wonders why I am concerned about chess, and believe that
> even small issues (aka, excessive drawishness on the highest level)
> are important, it is because of things like this. =A0If a game can't
> support an organized association for it, it is going to have a hard
> time being sustainable.
>
> Anyone have any info and insights into this?
>
> - Rich
1,000 members isn't enough.
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