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Date: 03 Dec 2007 01:23:02
From: Sanny
Subject: What type of End Game are Drawn?
Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html









 
Date: 04 Dec 2007 11:49:05
From: Fromper
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.
>
> 1. Bishop+King -- King
> 2- Knight+King -- King
> 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
> 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
> 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> What about below combinations are they draw?
>
> Rook+king -- Queen + King?
> Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> Rook + King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> Queen +King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

If you need to ask these questions, then you definitely need to get a
book like Silman's Complete Endgame Course.

--Fromper


 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 23:28:49
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
On Dec 4, 12:10 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.
>
> > 1. Bishop+King -- King
> > 2- Knight+King -- King
> > 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
> > 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
> > 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King
>
> > PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> > What about below combinations are they draw?
>
> > Rook+king -- Queen + King?
> > Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> > Rook + King -- Bishop +King?
>
> > Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> > Queen +King -- Bishop +King?
>
> > Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> > it for automatic Draw atGetClubChess.
>
> Since your program cannot be expected to detect
> all conceivable drawn positions, it is wise to focus
> on the simplest ones first:
>
> K vs. K = insufficient [i.e. nonexistent] mating material
>
> K&N vs. K = insufficient mating material
>
> K&B vs. K = insufficient mating material
>
> K&B vs. K&(B of the same color) = ditto
>
> --------------
>
> Look at the following position:
>
> White: Kd1, pawns on a4, d4, g4
>
> Black: Kd8, pawns on a5, d5, g5
>
> It is impossible for either side to make any
> headway because the pawns are fixed and
> there exist no legal entry squares for the
> Kings, so this too is drawn. However, for
> theGetClubprogram to detect this kind of
> draw, it would require connection to an
> /artificial intelligence/ (like IM Innes' brain, for
> instance).
>
> The other examples at the top of this post
> were not draws in this respect; some are
> draws with best play and some are wins with
> best play, but either way their cases are
> handled by the threefold-repetition rule or by
> the fifty-moves draw rule.
>
> -- help bot- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Now all Draw positions has been Added. So if the Game ends and it
finds Bishop vs Rook, Knight vs King or any other combination it will
End Game with a Draw instead of Playing in Drawn Position.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Lets see if it works Correctly.

Play a few games with Beginner Level & See if it sees Draws Correctly
or not.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 23:10:33
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.
>
> 1. Bishop+King -- King
> 2- Knight+King -- King
> 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
> 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
> 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> What about below combinations are they draw?
>
> Rook+king -- Queen + King?
> Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> Rook + King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> Queen +King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.


Since your program cannot be expected to detect
all conceivable drawn positions, it is wise to focus
on the simplest ones first:

K vs. K = insufficient [i.e. nonexistent] mating material

K&N vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K&(B of the same color) = ditto

--------------

Look at the following position:

White: Kd1, pawns on a4, d4, g4

Black: Kd8, pawns on a5, d5, g5


It is impossible for either side to make any
headway because the pawns are fixed and
there exist no legal entry squares for the
Kings, so this too is drawn. However, for
the GetClub program to detect this kind of
draw, it would require connection to an
/artificial intelligence/ (like IM Innes' brain, for
instance).

The other examples at the top of this post
were not draws in this respect; some are
draws with best play and some are wins with
best play, but either way their cases are
handled by the threefold-repetition rule or by
the fifty-moves draw rule.


-- help bot





 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 14:04:37
From:
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?


Sanny wrote:
> Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.
>
> 1. Bishop+King -- King
> 2- Knight+King -- King
> 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
> 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
> 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> What about below combinations are they draw?
>
> Rook+king -- Queen + King?
> Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> Rook + King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> Queen +King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

You're confusing two different cases here: positions in which a win is
_impossible_ (e.g. K+B vs. K), and positions which are drawn _with
best play_ (Iike K+R vs. K+N). In answer to your specific questions: K
+Q vs. K+R = win except in a few problem positions; K+R vs. K+N =
drawn from the general case, but there are losing positions if the N
is too close to a corner; K+R vs. K+B = drawn from the general case if
you know the right way but easy to lose; K+Q vs K+N (or B) = easy
win.

Perhaps I'm misreading it, but your first paragraph seems to be
including K+B+N vs. K and K+B+B vs King under the draws. Both are
forced wins, though non-trivial. Also worth mentioning is K+N+N vs. K
-- theoretical draw but _possible_ to lose if the defender plays
stupidly.


 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 12:02:36
From: SBD
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
On Dec 3, 8:23 am, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:


> (B)
> White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
> Black: Ke5, Ne4

This is a very trivial draw, white has 11 drawing moves and only a few
silly losing moves like 1. Ba4??. The fortress seens easy to find, but
since today we know so many, it makes finding such things easier. Can
you give the year in which it was thought to be won and the year it
was declared drawn, since you state it has a 150 year lag until it was
found drawn (at least that is how I interpreted your "Philish"). I
can't locate my "Domination" book (the classic on all piece captures
in these endings leading to a win), are you saying that until the 5
man tablebases were developed, it was thought to be a win? I can't
believe that those Russian composers working in the dead of winter
didn't find it.....



 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 10:38:36
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.


Let's assume in the following that nothing is en prise or
can be won in a simple forced sequence.
>
> 1. Bishop+King -- King
> 2- Knight+King -- King

These two are drawn. It is easy to show that there
is no possible mating position.

> 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King

This is drawn with best play from the defending
side. A mating position exists, but can only come about
if the weaker side blunders.

> 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King

This is an easy win.

> 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

This is also a win, though more difficult.

> What about below combinations are they draw?
>

> Rook+king -- Queen + King?

Almost always a win, except where tactics give the weaker side a draw
- in a few positions stalemate
swindles are possible, for example. Mating positions
obviously exist for the side with the rook, also.

> Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

No general rule is possible. These are sometimes
drawn, sometimes a win for the stronger side. The
player with the rook can selfmate against the player
with the knight.

>
> Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Easy wins.
>
> Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Then you should only apply this to (1) and (2) above.

There is no possible mating position with king and bishop vs king and
bishop of the same colour, so you should add that one.

William Hyde


 
Date: 03 Dec 2007 09:23:30
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?
Sanny, here are 2 useful exercises you can conduct to explore what are
called MAMS studies. [what you ask below you can get from almost any
beginning chess book]

I would like you to set up 2 positions, and see if your program can solve
them - they are called Kling&Horwitz Fortresses.

[for historical interest these positions went unsolved since 1851 - and
credit for challenging them goes to John Roycroft /Test Tube Chess/ 1972]

Evidently Timman understood this well enough, since the first GM win was
over Speelman 1992 Linares.

(A) this is the easy one - set up
White: Kd5, Ba4, Bf8
Black: Kb6, Nh1

that's easy, no? if too easy try the N on f2 - now, here comes the hard one:

(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

solve.

this (B) makes 'the fortress' which went unsolved for 150 years. [ if anyone
has another engine, try it, taking note of the number of moves <grin > ]

Phil Innes



"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.
>
> 1. Bishop+King -- King
> 2- Knight+King -- King
> 3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
> 4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
> 5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> What about below combinations are they draw?
>
> Rook+king -- Queen + King?
> Rook+King -- Knight + King?
> Rook + King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Queen +King -- Knight + King?
> Queen +King -- Bishop +King?
>
> Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
> it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
>
>
>
>




  
Date: 04 Dec 2007 13:54:42
From: Wiebe
Subject: Re: What type of End Game are Drawn?

"Chess One" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Sanny, here are 2 useful exercises you can conduct to explore what are
> called MAMS studies. [what you ask below you can get from almost any
> beginning chess book]
>
> I would like you to set up 2 positions, and see if your program can solve
> them - they are called Kling&Horwitz Fortresses.
>
> [for historical interest these positions went unsolved since 1851 - and
> credit for challenging them goes to John Roycroft /Test Tube Chess/ 1972]
>
> Evidently Timman understood this well enough, since the first GM win was
> over Speelman 1992 Linares.
>
> (A) this is the easy one - set up
> White: Kd5, Ba4, Bf8
> Black: Kb6, Nh1
>
> that's easy, no? if too easy try the N on f2 - now, here comes the hard
> one:
>
> (B)
> White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
> Black: Ke5, Ne4
>
> solve.
>
> this (B) makes 'the fortress' which went unsolved for 150 years. [ if
> anyone has another engine, try it, taking note of the number of moves
> <grin> ]

Wow! Same amount as squares on a chessboard ;-)

> Phil Innes
>