1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Date: 22 Oct 2004 22:35:04
From: Adventurous One
Subject: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Question:

How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.

Thank you very much.

Date: 24 Oct 2004 07:08:53
From: Miriling
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

>Subject: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

>On 23 October 2004 [email protected] (Adventurous One) asked in
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>Question:
>
> How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
>
>Bobby Fischer faced this variation when he played Russell Codman of Boston in
a 53-board simultaneous exhibition on May 10, 1964, at the Harvard Club in
Boston. Fischer lost the game - his only loss - not because of the variation
his opponent played, but because he blundered on the 17th move in a game that
he was clearly winning.

R. Fischer-R. Codman
May 10, 1964
Boston simul
1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 3. Nc3 g6 4. h4 Bg7 5. h5 d5 6. h6 Bf8 7. Bg5 a6 8. Bf6 Rg8
9. Nf3 Nd7 10. e5 Nxf6 11. exf6 Nf5 12. g4 Qxf6 13. gxf5 Qxf5 14. Bd3 Qf4 15.
Rh4 Qf6 16. Qe2 Bd7 17. Ne5?? [Called for was 17. Nxd5! Qd8 18. Qe5.] 17...Qxh4
18. Qf3 f5 19. 0-0-0 Bxh6+ 20. Kb1 Qxd4 21. Qe2 Bg7 22. Nxd7 Kxd7 23. Bxf5 Qe5
(0-1)
>
George Mirijanian
>
>

Date: 24 Oct 2004 13:27:05
From: Toni Lassila
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

On 24 Oct 2004 07:08:53 GMT, [email protected] (Miriling) wrote:

>R. Fischer-R. Codman
>May 10, 1964
>Boston simul
>1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 3. Nc3 g6 4. h4 Bg7 5. h5 d5 6. h6 Bf8 7. Bg5 a6 8. Bf6 Rg8
>9. Nf3 Nd7 10. e5 Nxf6 11. exf6 Nf5 12. g4 Qxf6 13. gxf5 Qxf5 14. Bd3 Qf4 15.
>Rh4 Qf6 16. Qe2 Bd7 17. Ne5 Qxh4 18. Qf3 f5 19. 0-0-0 Bxh6+ 20. Kb1 Qxd4
>21. Qe2 Bg7 22. Nxd7 Kxd7 23. Bxf5 Qe5 0-1

Wow! Fischer lost to someone who played like THIS!? Even in a simul
it's quite extraordinary. I think my respect for his chess talent just
went down a notch.

--
King's Gambit - http://kingsgambit.blogspot.com
Chess problems, tactics, analysis and more.

Date: 24 Oct 2004 19:00:56
From: bruno de baenst
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

He plays a !!!53!!! board simultaneous exhibition and only lost one.
I think my respect for his chess talent just went up a notch.

"Toni Lassila" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> On 24 Oct 2004 07:08:53 GMT, [email protected] (Miriling) wrote:
>
> >R. Fischer-R. Codman
> >May 10, 1964
> >Boston simul
> >1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 3. Nc3 g6 4. h4 Bg7 5. h5 d5 6. h6 Bf8 7. Bg5 a6 8.
Bf6 Rg8
> >9. Nf3 Nd7 10. e5 Nxf6 11. exf6 Nf5 12. g4 Qxf6 13. gxf5 Qxf5 14. Bd3 Qf4
15.
> >Rh4 Qf6 16. Qe2 Bd7 17. Ne5 Qxh4 18. Qf3 f5 19. 0-0-0 Bxh6+ 20. Kb1 Qxd4
> >21. Qe2 Bg7 22. Nxd7 Kxd7 23. Bxf5 Qe5 0-1
>
> Wow! Fischer lost to someone who played like THIS!? Even in a simul
> it's quite extraordinary. I think my respect for his chess talent just
> went down a notch.
>
> --
> King's Gambit - http://kingsgambit.blogspot.com
> Chess problems, tactics, analysis and more.

Date: 24 Oct 2004 17:44:52
From: Adventurous One
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
get is generalities. Come on... can you do better than that? What the
best plan for White?

1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?

Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?

You tell me.

"bruno de baenst" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> He plays a !!!53!!! board simultaneous exhibition and only lost one.
> I think my respect for his chess talent just went up a notch.
>
>
> "Toni Lassila" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > On 24 Oct 2004 07:08:53 GMT, [email protected] (Miriling) wrote:
> >
> > >R. Fischer-R. Codman
> > >May 10, 1964
> > >Boston simul
> > >1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 3. Nc3 g6 4. h4 Bg7 5. h5 d5 6. h6 Bf8 7. Bg5 a6 8.
> Bf6 Rg8
> > >9. Nf3 Nd7 10. e5 Nxf6 11. exf6 Nf5 12. g4 Qxf6 13. gxf5 Qxf5 14. Bd3 Qf4
> 15.
> > >Rh4 Qf6 16. Qe2 Bd7 17. Ne5 Qxh4 18. Qf3 f5 19. 0-0-0 Bxh6+ 20. Kb1 Qxd4
> > >21. Qe2 Bg7 22. Nxd7 Kxd7 23. Bxf5 Qe5 0-1
> >
> > Wow! Fischer lost to someone who played like THIS!? Even in a simul
> > it's quite extraordinary. I think my respect for his chess talent just
> > went down a notch.
> >
> > --
> > King's Gambit - http://kingsgambit.blogspot.com
> > Chess problems, tactics, analysis and more.

Date: 27 Oct 2004 09:46:24
From: Roman M. Parparov
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Adventurous One <[email protected] > wrote:
> I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
> get is generalities. Come on... can you do better than that? What the
> best plan for White?

> 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?

> Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?

> You tell me.

If you don't understand yourself, you may consider abandoning chess.

--
Roman M. Parparov - NASA EOSDIS project node at TAU technical manager.
Email: [email protected] http://www.nasa.proj.ac.il/
Phone/Fax: +972-(0)3-6405205 (work), +972-(0)50-734-18-34 (home)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The economy depends about as much on economists as the weather does on
weather forecasters.
-- Jean-Paul Kauffmann

Date: 27 Oct 2004 23:42:41
From: Adventurous One
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

I would tell Mr. Paparov to watch his language. Try suggesting good moves instead.

"Roman M. Parparov" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Adventurous One <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
> > get is generalities. Come on... can you do better than that? What the
> > best plan for White?
>
> > 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?
>
> > Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?
>
> > You tell me.
>
> If you don't understand yourself, you may consider abandoning chess.

Date: 28 Oct 2004 09:33:23
From: Roman M. Parparov
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Adventurous One <[email protected] > wrote:
> I would tell Mr. Paparov to watch his language. Try suggesting good moves instead.

What for? You lack skill and talent to understand them.

--
Roman M. Parparov - NASA EOSDIS project node at TAU technical manager.
Email: [email protected] http://www.nasa.proj.ac.il/
Phone/Fax: +972-(0)3-6405205 (work), +972-(0)50-734-18-34 (home)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The economy depends about as much on economists as the weather does on
weather forecasters.
-- Jean-Paul Kauffmann

Date: 28 Oct 2004 11:31:48
From: Adventurous One
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Paparov, you don't know anything about making good moves in the first
place. I play better chess than you. If you ever drop by on the
Internet Chess Club, I will gladly play you some games.

"Roman M. Parparov" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Adventurous One <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I would tell Mr. Paparov to watch his language. Try suggesting good moves instead.
>
> What for? You lack skill and talent to understand them.

Date: 28 Oct 2004 23:51:23
From: Roman M. Parparov
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Adventurous One <[email protected] > wrote:
> Paparov, you don't know anything about making good moves in the first
> place. I play better chess than you. If you ever drop by on the
> Internet Chess Club, I will gladly play you some games.

You top-post.
You can't read your opponent's surname.
And I am a regular player on ICC (handle Romm) but I won't play you,
you're not an interesting enough figure.

--
Roman M. Parparov - NASA EOSDIS project node at TAU technical manager.
Email: [email protected] http://www.nasa.proj.ac.il/
Phone/Fax: +972-(0)3-6405205 (work), +972-(0)50-734-18-34 (home)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The economy depends about as much on economists as the weather does on
weather forecasters.
-- Jean-Paul Kauffmann

Date: 30 Oct 2004 20:43:37
From: Adventurous One
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

You are just avoiding a challenge, Mr. Paparov. You can't read my
surname, but I can read yours. I can beat you anytime I want to on
ICC. I regularly beat International Masters, FIDE Masters and even
Grandmasters. Can you say the same?

Oh, and I am a lot more interesting than you are.

Date: 31 Oct 2004 07:58:13
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

En/na Adventurous One ha escrit:
> You are just avoiding a challenge, Mr. Paparov. You can't read my
> surname, but I can read yours. I can beat you anytime I want to on
> ICC. I regularly beat International Masters, FIDE Masters and even
> Grandmasters. Can you say the same?
>
> Oh, and I am a lot more interesting than you are.

what's your nick in ICC?

AT

Date: 02 Nov 2004 19:54:50
From: KJ2350
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

I'm guessing "Overblown Ego".

Date: 26 Oct 2004 08:13:39
From: Jostein
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

On 2004-10-25 02:44:52 +0200, [email protected] (Adventurous
One) said:

> I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
> get is generalities. (...)

And for a good reason.

> 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?
>
> Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?
>
> You tell me.

3. Bc4? and 3.h4?! are both bad moves.
Black would not respond with 3... Ng6? on either move if he understands
a little about positional chess. He would play 3... d5.

Date: 26 Oct 2004 17:31:35
From: Theodor Seiz
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

I would not underestimate blacks move. Cleary black has 2 reasonable
plans and a couple of stupid ones:

1. play a hippo with g6, Bg7, b6 and d6
2. play into a french structure with d5
3. some pre 1900 games show a play with f5 (not good)
4. Ng6 plans (not good)

The difficult thing for white is, that every move geared only against
1 or 2 will lead to - if black plays it purposefully - the other plan.

So white needs a move, that works against a hippo and the french. So
3.f4 d5! is just what I want to avoid, this move doesnt fit into this
type of french defence.

I would play either 3.Nf3 with the idea of h4 agains the hippo and
maintaining the fluid center against the french. As I am more of a d4
player anyway, I would possible prefer 3.c4 with 3. -d5 4. e:d or
4.Nc3 and f4 against the hippo.

Date: 26 Oct 2004 20:15:24
From: Jostein
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

On 2004-10-26 19:31:35 +0200, [email protected] (Theodor Seiz) said:

> I would not underestimate blacks move. Cleary black has 2 reasonable
> plans and a couple of stupid ones:
>
> 1. play a hippo with g6, Bg7, b6 and d6
> 2. play into a french structure with d5
> 3. some pre 1900 games show a play with f5 (not good)
> 4. Ng6 plans (not good)
>
> The difficult thing for white is, that every move geared only against
> 1 or 2 will lead to - if black plays it purposefully - the other plan.
>
> So white needs a move, that works against a hippo and the french. So
> 3.f4 d5! is just what I want to avoid, this move doesnt fit into this
> type of french defence.
>
> I would play either 3.Nf3 with the idea of h4 agains the hippo and
> maintaining the fluid center against the french. As I am more of a d4
> player anyway, I would possible prefer 3.c4 with 3. -d5 4. e:d or
> 4.Nc3 and f4 against the hippo.

Your analysis was very good by the way.

Date: 26 Oct 2004 20:13:11
From: Jostein
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Date: 25 Oct 2004 21:48:31
From: Ron
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (Adventurous One) wrote:

> I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
> get is generalities. Come on... can you do better than that? What the
> best plan for White?
>
> 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?
>
> Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?
>
> You tell me.

And now what?

You start playing chess.

I know it's crazy, but you can't start looking for a wild refutation
just because your opponent makes a dumb move on move 2.

You don't want generalities? Sorry-- you've got to play your own chess.

I will say that if you're looking for a refutatin, I like 3.f4 and
4.Nf3 more than I like 3.h4-h5, which is pretty cave-man. Ng6 looks like
it's trying to control e5. This is sort of weird, of course, since he's
already played e6, but I'd assume that d6 and e5 are on the menu at some
point. You either preempt this by playing e5 yourself (in which case the
f-pawn provides useful support) or allow it, in which case the f-pawn
helps undermine it.

But the thing is, it's not at all clear what black has in mind here, so
it's hard to say, "oh, beat it like this!" He's only made too moves, and
unless his first moves are f6 and g5, or he's hung a piece, it's pretty
much impossible to define your long term strategy after two moves.

Date: 25 Oct 2004 06:02:22
From: Avanti
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

"Adventurous One" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I asked about the best way to play against 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 and all I
> get is generalities. Come on... can you do better than that? What the
> best plan for White?
>
> 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3 Bc4 Ng6 ... and now what?
>
> Or 3 h4!? Ng6 4 h5!?
>
> You tell me.

Is this a quiz or were you asking for help?
I play the french and 2...Ne7 is not in any book I know, at this point black
is behind in space , development and time, so many classic plans to
capitalise on this situation should suffice.

Date: 23 Oct 2004 12:07:31
From: Jostein
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

On 2004-10-23 07:35:04 +0200, [email protected] (Adventurous
One) said:

> Question:
>
> How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.
> Thank you very much.

2 .... Ne7 uses a tempo to misplace the knight. Black now has the
problem of how to get out Bf8. If he playes g6 he has got a hole on f6.
If not he will have to move the knight away from its bad position.

White can play anything and have a large advantage.

Date: 23 Oct 2004 08:42:38
From: Adventurous One
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

Black will play 3...Ng6 anyway, and then, 4...Be7. Could you be more specific here?

Jostein <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 2004-10-23 07:35:04 +0200, [email protected] (Adventurous
> One) said:
>
> > Question:
> >
> > How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.
> > Thank you very much.
>
> 2 .... Ne7 uses a tempo to misplace the knight. Black now has the
> problem of how to get out Bf8. If he playes g6 he has got a hole on f6.
> If not he will have to move the knight away from its bad position.
>
> White can play anything and have a large advantage.

Date: 24 Oct 2004 00:13:41
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

En/na Adventurous One ha escrit:

> Black will play 3...Ng6 anyway, and then, 4...Be7. Could you be more specific here?
>
> Jostein <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>On 2004-10-23 07:35:04 +0200, [email protected] (Adventurous
>>One) said:
>>
>>>Question:
>>>
>>> How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.
>>> Thank you very much.
>>
>>2 .... Ne7 uses a tempo to misplace the knight. Black now has the
>>problem of how to get out Bf8. If he playes g6 he has got a hole on f6.
>>If not he will have to move the knight away from its bad position.
>>
>>White can play anything and have a large advantage.

In that case I recommend: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 3.Bf4 Ng6 4.Bc7 Be7 5.Bd8

Jokes apart, ... Ne7 is clearly a bad move but there is no forced mate
in less than 10 moves after it.

As a demostration a simple "counting development" shows it.

AT

Date: 23 Oct 2004 06:25:06
From: Avanti
Subject: Re: 1 d4 e6 2 e4 Ne7 : HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THIS?

"Adventurous One" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Question:
>
> How best to play against this variation? Please demonstrate.
>
> Thank you very much.

is it not the same as e4 e6, d4 d5 Nd2 Ne7?