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Main
Date: 23 Dec 2006 15:09:39
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
chess?
The Russians have done pretty well at chess, yet during the cold war,
the availability of computers in Russia was severely restricted.
Someone stated to me that:
"And it is much more difficult to improve without a database, especially
if you don't have a coach."
Again, is there any evidence of this?
I'm updating some information about the free chess database ChessDB
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/
and would like some evidence that chess databases in general result in
an improvement of ones chess. Unlike ChessBase, who make stupid claims like:
>> Everyone uses ChessBase, from the World Champion to the amateur next
door.
(see http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=211&user=&coin= if
you don't believe me the **** they talk)
I'd like to back some of this up. Has there been any serious study into
the effect databases have on one's chess? I can well imagine that could
be a subject of a PhD.
--
Dave (from the UK)
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 07 Jan 2007 21:56:28
From: Bark!
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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"Dave (from the UK)" <[email protected] >
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
> chess?
>
> The Russians have done pretty well at chess, yet during the cold war, the
> availability of computers in Russia was severely restricted.
>
> Someone stated to me that:
>
> "And it is much more difficult to improve without a database, especially
> if you don't have a coach."
>
> Again, is there any evidence of this?
>
> I'm updating some information about the free chess database ChessDB
>
> http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/
>
> and would like some evidence that chess databases in general result in an
> improvement of ones chess. Unlike ChessBase, who make stupid claims like:
>
> >> Everyone uses ChessBase, from the World Champion to the amateur next
> door.
>
> (see http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=211&user=&coin= if you
> don't believe me the **** they talk)
>
> I'd like to back some of this up. Has there been any serious study into
> the effect databases have on one's chess? I can well imagine that could be
> a subject of a PhD.
>
>
> --
> Dave (from the UK)
>
> Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
> It is always of the form: [email protected]
> Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
>
> http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
I will just reffer you to this article to prove database DOES help. Of
course, it helps if you know how to use it. I.e. if I play 100 games in
Philidor's Defense I can open my personal database and see where I went
wrong before, what lines I found that improve my game etc. This is all
hypotetic. For instance, I played Bg4 on move 3 25 times and I lost 24. Now
thats indicating something to me. I won 1 game. Ok, I find that game in the
database and see that the opponent was 400 points lower than my rating is.
That is how it works. And you let Fritz analyse move 3 for black and then
you play that next time. And you play more and more and in the end you make
a conclusion - arrrr.... I don't wanna play Philidor anymore. LOL
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mig03.pdf
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 17:32:27
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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En/na Dave (from the UK) ha escrit:
> Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
> chess?
Databases can help you the study of several aspects:
1) Openings research.
It's easier to study a concrete line knowing what happened in played
games not only as usefuol examples but also as evidence os research of
concrete players.
2) Endings study.
From practical ending we can undertand better some aspects od endgame
play. And from concrete stititics we can evaluate better some concrete
endings.
3) Middlegame study.
If you are interested in a concrete theme (as example fight 3 pieces vs
3 rooks) you can obtain many examples and ideas from databases.
But that do not mean databases have no problems:
- Some people devote more time to ramdom visits to his database than to
serious study.
- Some people devote more time to add games to his database than to
serious study.
...
But generaly the problem is in the user not in the tool
> The Russians have done pretty well at chess, yet during the cold war,
> the availability of computers in Russia was severely restricted.
>
> Someone stated to me that:
>
> "And it is much more difficult to improve without a database, especially
> if you don't have a coach."
Of course a coach can be very useful and a coach with a complete
database devoted to teach can be more useful.
Antonio
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 22:50:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected] > wrote:
> Databases can help you the study of several aspects:
>
> 3) Middlegame study.
>
> If you are interested in a concrete theme (as example fight 3 pieces
> vs 3 rooks) you can obtain many examples and ideas from databases.
That sounds like a pretty specialized case. Three pieces vs two rooks
might be a little more common. ;-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Perforated Mouldy Ghost (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a haunting spirit but it's
starting to grow mushrooms and full
of holes!
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 00:52:59
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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En/na David Richerby ha escrit:
> Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Databases can help you the study of several aspects:
>>
>>3) Middlegame study.
>>
>>If you are interested in a concrete theme (as example fight 3 pieces
>>vs 3 rooks) you can obtain many examples and ideas from databases.
>
>
> That sounds like a pretty specialized case. Three pieces vs two rooks
> might be a little more common. ;-)
>
> Dave.
I'm sorry, ... typo error :-)
I wrote that concrete example because I studied it not log ago.
AT
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 17:33:11
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:
> En/na Dave (from the UK) ha escrit:
>
>> Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve
>> one's chess?
A similar question can be asked for chess engines.
:-)
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 16:07:47
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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I should have sent this to rec.games.chess.computer too, so are doing so
now.
Perhaps if anyone would wants to reply to the comment, it would be
better if they reply under this, as it is cross-posted.
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
chess?
The Russians have done pretty well at chess, yet during the cold war,
the availability of computers in Russia was severely restricted.
Someone stated to me that:
"And it is much more difficult to improve without a database, especially
if you don't have a coach."
Again, is there any evidence of this?
I'm updating some information about the free chess database ChessDB
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/
and would like some evidence that chess databases in general result in
an improvement of ones chess. Unlike ChessBase, who make stupid claims
like:
>> Everyone uses ChessBase, from the World Champion to the
>> amateur next door.
(see http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=211&user=&coin= if
you don't believe me the **** they talk)
I'd like to back some of this up. Has there been any serious study into
the effect databases have on one's chess? I can well imagine that could
be a subject of a PhD.
--
Dave (from the UK)
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 01:56:35
From: Ange1o DePa1ma
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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"Dave (from the UK)" <[email protected] >
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>I should have sent this to rec.games.chess.computer too, so are doing so
>now.
> Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
> chess?
Sorry for losing the original post.
The database question comes down to whether it's easier to study and prepare
from paper notes or from electronic compilations of games, openings, and
positions. I don't see how it could be easier to do it the old way. The
databases per se aren't doing anything magical, they're just maintaining
these records -- and a lot more -- in an easily, readily, and quickly
accessible format. Instead of hunting for something in a book and probably
not finding it, you now have it on a computer.
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 09:59:03
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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En/na Ange1o DePa1ma ha escrit:
> "Dave (from the UK)" <[email protected]>
> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>I should have sent this to rec.games.chess.computer too, so are doing so
>>now.
>
>>Dave (from the UK) wrote:
>>Is there any *hard* evidence that computer Chess databases improve one's
>>chess?
>
> Sorry for losing the original post.
>
> The database question comes down to whether it's easier to study and prepare
> from paper notes or from electronic compilations of games, openings, and
> positions. I don't see how it could be easier to do it the old way. The
> databases per se aren't doing anything magical, they're just maintaining
> these records -- and a lot more -- in an easily, readily, and quickly
> accessible format. Instead of hunting for something in a book and probably
> not finding it, you now have it on a computer.
An Spanish player answered in an interview that some years ago He
traveled with many chess informants, opening books and ending books to
play tournaments. Last years HE only needed his computer.
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 22:48:22
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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Dave (from the UK) <[email protected] > wrote:
> Someone stated to me that:
>
> "And it is much more difficult to improve without a database,
> especially if you don't have a coach."
>
> Again, is there any evidence of this?
Well, I don't know about ``much more difficult to improve'' but I, as
a pretty weak player (106BCF) find databases very useful as a means of
finding a collection of games in an opening I might be interested in.
This lets me see what the general plans are in the openings: whizz
through thirty or forty games at a couple of seconds a move and you
soon see whether you should be aiming for a kingside attack, queenside
space advantage or whatever.
>>> Everyone uses ChessBase, from the World Champion to the
>>> amateur next door.
>
> (see http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=211&user=&coin= if
> you don't believe me the **** they talk)
Well, the World Champion almost certainly uses ChessBase. There are
plenty of amateurs who use it (otherwise, the software wouldn't be
commercially viable). And while it's not true to say that literally
everybody uses it, that's fairly standard keting speak for ``people
of a wide range of abilities use ChessBase''.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Solar-Powered Microsoft.com (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an E-commerce portal that's
really hard to use but it doesn't work
in the dark!
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Date: 26 Dec 2006 22:13:01
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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Even those who don't use databases or engines play against those who do, so
they are impacted as well.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
The OFFICIAL Ray Gordon Blog:
http://moderncaveman.typepad.com
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Date: 31 Dec 2006 07:35:08
From: pocobueno
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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well that's a stunning piece of logic, congratulations...I think that might
have been a given, what do ya reckon?...fuckwit
"Ray Gordon, creator of the "pivot"" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Even those who don't use databases or engines play against those who do,
> so they are impacted as well.
>
>
> --
> Ray Gordon, Author
> The OFFICIAL Ray Gordon Blog:
> http://moderncaveman.typepad.com
>
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 11:38:54
From: Johnny T
Subject: Re: Any evidence for improvement with databases?
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Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> I'd like to back some of this up. Has there been any serious study into
> the effect databases have on one's chess? I can well imagine that could
> be a subject of a PhD.
You are never going to get a "control" group together, or create a
double blind study of non-users or users of bad data.
At the grandmaster level, they use it period. At lower levels you will
never be able to filter out for talent or training.
So, I think your PHD study will be non-existent.
There is a truth that at the match level at the highest levels, players
prepare against each other, and database work is a part of that
preparations. For trainers, use of database work to investigate things
like opening theory are useful. For writers of opening books for
computers.
Sometimes it is sort of basically obvious that some tools are basically
suited for a job at hand.
What I suspect you are asking, is just rummaging around a database
useful for plastic-pieces joe. Who knows, who cares. They enjoy it or
don't. But if you have a specific task you are doing, of course it
helps, why wouldn't it?
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