Main
Date: 16 Nov 2006 02:26:59
From: Sanny
Subject: Beginner Level playing very fast.
Today, I just thought of playing a game with Beginner Level

Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

I was surprised to see how fast it was making it's move.

initial 5 moves were made in just 2 seconds.

First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.

Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves

And Now it is way too fast for Lightning Games.

Start a Game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

However if you want to play Tough games you should play Normal & Master
Levels like Zebediah has beaten Master Level yesterday.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html





 
Date: 20 Nov 2006 23:21:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Game Strength Increased.

Sanny wrote:

> Game Strength increased by utilizing little Extra time. As it is
> useless for Chess playing moves in 2 seconds and make a dirty move.
> Instead think for 10 seconds And make the move.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> So Beginner will always take atleast 10 seconds.
> Easy: atleast 20 seconds
> Normal: atleast 40 seconds


I played a game against a human opponent tonight,
which is quite rare for me. But I also managed to
finish a couple of games against Sanny's program,
and even on Normal level it hangs pieces right out of
the starting gate. One game went something like
this:

1.e3 e5
2.Bd3 Nf6
3.Nf3?? e4

0-1

Needless to say, playing moves like this one
has earned the lower levels ratings in the 600s,
compared to new players, who are started at 1000.
I guesstimate that I earned more points for my one
win against SoftTanks than I have all month playing
the program's easier levels. It's lonely at the top.

-- help bot



 
Date: 18 Nov 2006 02:05:52
From: Sanny
Subject: Game Strength Increased.

> Now I'm back to playing the quicker levels, and
> the playing strength is gone. Sanny keeps
> alternating between (some) strength and (some)
> speed, responding to the complaints here on rgc.
> But we want both strength AND speed, and his
> programmers don't seem to be up to the task.

Game Strength increased by utilizing little Extra time. As it is
useless for Chess playing moves in 2 seconds and make a dirty move.
Instead think for 10 seconds And make the move.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

So Beginner will always take atleast 10 seconds.
Easy: atleast 20 seconds
Normal: atleast 40 seconds

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



  
Date: 18 Nov 2006 12:47:15
From: Rob Berlan
Subject: Re: Game Strength Increased.
"Sanny" < > So Beginner will always take atleast 10 seconds. Easy: atleast 20
seconds Normal: atleast 40 seconds
>

This is more honest. It is like going to one of those Dollar Stores where it
says on the window: Everything is AT LEAST $1.

You know that many things will cost more.

What happened to those Chess Software games that were freeware? I think at
Office Depot or Wal-t they are about $5.

Aren't they faster than what Sanny is doing?




   
Date: 18 Nov 2006 13:28:04
From: Duncan Oxley
Subject: Re: Game Strength Increased.

"Rob Berlan" <[email protected] > wrote
>
> What happened to those Chess Software games that were freeware? I think at
> Office Depot or Wal-t they are about $5.
>
> Aren't they faster than what Sanny is doing?
>
>

Rob check out http://tim-mann.org/chess.html
for WinBoard & Crafty.

Much better, much faster. Free.

--Duncan




 
Date: 18 Nov 2006 00:14:56
From: help bot
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.

Roly Poly Man wrote:
> "Ruud" <> And still, blind to all the feedback, the advertizing
> continues....
> >
>
> Have you ever had a really old shitty car that barely got you to work and
> you only worked a mile from your house? I have.
>
> I understand Sanny perfectly. For the time I had that hunk of shit car, I
> thought of it as the best car on earth and praised its virtues in spite of
> reality.
>
> Why? Because the alternative was walking. Public transportation in Miami is
> practically non-existant.


I believe Sanny really is trying to improve his
chess program, but not making much headway.

Chess is just one of the games offered on his
Web site, and apparently, it is not very profitable
so far. His programming team has a lot more to
do than just work on the chess program, I imagine.

Also note that we, the complainers here in rgc,
are not your average-strength chess players. For
example, I am millions of times stronger than your
typical, casual chess player. : >D

I finally was able to finish up a game which had
been in progress for some time, as the program now
seems to have sped up a bit. My King was in a
mess despite my being a piece ahead, but when
the program gained speed, it seems to also have
lost the thread; I won quite easily on Normal level.
Now I'm back to playing the quicker levels, and
the playing strength is gone. Sanny keeps
alternating between (some) strength and (some)
speed, responding to the complaints here on rgc.
But we want both strength AND speed, and his
programmers don't seem to be up to the task.
My view is that chess programming requires some
special techniques, which are (apparently) not
well-known to HTML and Web site designer types.

-- help bot



  
Date: 18 Nov 2006 09:47:41
From: Ruud
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.

"help bot" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]
>
> Roly Poly Man wrote:
>> "Ruud" <> And still, blind to all the feedback, the advertizing
>> continues....
>> >
>>
>> Have you ever had a really old shitty car that barely got you to work and
>> you only worked a mile from your house? I have.
>>
>> I understand Sanny perfectly. For the time I had that hunk of shit car, I
>> thought of it as the best car on earth and praised its virtues in spite
>> of
>> reality.
>>
>> Why? Because the alternative was walking. Public transportation in Miami
>> is
>> practically non-existant.
>
>
> I believe Sanny really is trying to improve his
> chess program, but not making much headway.

Trying is not good enough!!!
Advertizing for something that is no good, is a form of swindle.




 
Date: 17 Nov 2006 01:44:24
From: Sanny
Subject: All levels play fast.
> > First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.
>
> No. By move 10 EACH move was taking 10 seconds.
> >
> > Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves
>
> Ah...so you recognize that the program is not meeting the advertised
> time control (10 seconds/move). When will this be fixed?

The Game Advertise as below

Games at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Beginner Level 10-20 seconds/move
Easy Level 30-60 seconds/move
Normal Level 1-2 minutes/move

Bye
Sanny

Play chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



  
Date: 17 Nov 2006 19:51:18
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.
Sanny wrote:
>>> First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.
>> No. By move 10 EACH move was taking 10 seconds.
>>> Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves
>> Ah...so you recognize that the program is not meeting the advertised
>> time control (10 seconds/move). When will this be fixed?
>
> The Game Advertise as below
>
> Games at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Beginner Level 10-20 seconds/move
> Easy Level 30-60 seconds/move
> Normal Level 1-2 minutes/move
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

I see: "[Free] Beginner (10 sec / move) SCORE: Win:100 Draw:!"

Do you see something different?

Or, do you just not see?


--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/


  
Date: 18 Nov 2006 02:16:22
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.
Sanny wrote:
>>>First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.
>>
>>No. By move 10 EACH move was taking 10 seconds.
>>
>>>Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves
>>
>>Ah...so you recognize that the program is not meeting the advertised
>>time control (10 seconds/move). When will this be fixed?
>
>
> The Game Advertise as below
>
> Games at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Beginner Level 10-20 seconds/move
> Easy Level 30-60 seconds/move
> Normal Level 1-2 minutes/move

Why do you bother lying about it? It still takes easily up to 7 minutes
per move.


  
Date: 17 Nov 2006 15:32:30
From: Ruud
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.

"Sanny" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]
>> > First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.
>>
>> No. By move 10 EACH move was taking 10 seconds.
>> >
>> > Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves
>>
>> Ah...so you recognize that the program is not meeting the advertised
>> time control (10 seconds/move). When will this be fixed?
>
> The Game Advertise as below
>
> Games at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Beginner Level 10-20 seconds/move
> Easy Level 30-60 seconds/move
> Normal Level 1-2 minutes/move
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

And still, blind to all the feedback, the advertizing continues....




   
Date: 17 Nov 2006 13:26:01
From: Roly Poly Man
Subject: Re: All levels play fast.
"Ruud" < > And still, blind to all the feedback, the advertizing
continues....
>

Have you ever had a really old shitty car that barely got you to work and
you only worked a mile from your house? I have.

I understand Sanny perfectly. For the time I had that hunk of shit car, I
thought of it as the best car on earth and praised its virtues in spite of
reality.

Why? Because the alternative was walking. Public transportation in Miami is
practically non-existant.




 
Date: 16 Nov 2006 17:28:34
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: Beginner Level playing very fast.
On 2006-11-16, Sanny wrote:
> Today, I just thought of playing a game with Beginner Level
>
> Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> I was surprised to see how fast it was making it's move.
>
> initial 5 moves were made in just 2 seconds.
>
> First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.
>
> Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves
>
> And Now it is way too fast for Lightning Games.

Sorry to disillusion you, but it is still nowhere near lightning
speed.

On beginner level, it played the first 5 or 6 moves quickly. Since
then it has taken from 2 to 6 minutes for every move. Currently
on about move 12 (why does the program not display move numbers?
and standard algebraic notation would be nice).

Ah... from about move 13 or 14, it has picked up speed and is now
taking 20 to 30 seconds per move.

A few moves further on it is moving very quickly -- less than 10
seconds per move -- but it is throwing pieces away.

Now, a rook and two pieces down, it is taking longer again ... 4
minutes ... 5 ... 6.5 minutes to move.

A little better on the next .. 1 minute .. same again ... for a
few moves.

Now back to minutes, with the computer (Black) kpp against
KRNBPPPP. My b pawn is 2 squares from promotion with Black's king
on the other side of the board. 5 minutes, and Black didn't take a
free knight. 4 minutes, and Black took the knight; I promoted to a
queen. Mate's 3 or 4 moves (i.e., half an hour) away ... no,
Black resigned.

The time taken is a vast improvement, but still nowhere near the
time claimed, and nowhere near blitz or lightning speed. The
quality of play, on the other hand, is abysmal.

> Start a Game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> However if you want to play Tough games you should play Normal & Master
> Levels like Zebediah has beaten Master Level yesterday.

The last game I played at normal level took days. The rest of my
beard would turn grey before I could finish a game at master
level.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


 
Date: 16 Nov 2006 09:10:45
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Beginner Level playing very fast.


On Nov 16, 10:07 am, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:

> Annoying interface, slower than advertised, seems to be solving
> self-mate problems.

Slower than advertised is something of an understatement still. On the
Beginner level it took 20 seconds to consider the only king move it
had. And yes, just throwing pieces at it works wonders. When there is a
defense, it doesn't play that, but instead starts to sacrifice its own
pieces. Very odd.

I would say that saying it is solving self-mate problems is an insult
to any computer that can solve selfmates. But the older term "sui-mate"
for suicide mate, seems to describe it nicely.

In fact, I suggest to Sanny that he call it "Sanny's sui-mate chess" -
after all, all the other engines have a name.

I still say the program I made from an old TRS-80 magazine in the 1980s
played better than this - and that one had to run off of a cassette
tape (!) - still, after months of so-called "development." I think
Sanny must be planning some Borat-type of joke, because no one could be
serious about this thing.



  
Date: 20 Nov 2006 09:30:05
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Beginner Level playing very fast.
SBD <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 10:07 am, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Annoying interface, slower than advertised, seems to be solving
>> self-mate problems.
>
> Slower than advertised is something of an understatement still. On
> the Beginner level it took 20 seconds to consider the only king move
> it had.

This post probably doesn't apply to Sanny's engine but does apply to
chess engines in general.

In the case where an engine has been set to think for N seconds per
move, it is absolutely right for the engine to think for the full N
seconds even when it has only one legal move. The reason is that it
can use the time to fill the hash table with useful information about
positions that will result from this unique move.

(Of course, it is not right for an engine that has been set to think
for 10s per move to spend 20s on an only move, which is where the
reasoning breaks down for Sanny's engine.)


> I would say that saying it is solving self-mate problems is an
> insult to any computer that can solve selfmates. But the older term
> "sui-mate" for suicide mate, seems to describe it nicely.

Isn't a self-mate a puzzle where, say, White forces Black to checkmate
him? Sanny's engine doesn't do that, TTBOMK.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Unholy Umbrella (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ an umbrella but it's also a crime
against nature!


 
Date: 16 Nov 2006 10:07:56
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Beginner Level playing very fast.
Sanny wrote:
> Today, I just thought of playing a game with Beginner Level

Me, too.

>
> Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> I was surprised to see how fast it was making it's move.

It was hard to see how fast moves were made, because the
board display was often wrong. Pieces did not move correctly, sometimes
there were extra pieces on the board for about 10 seconds. The
interface was generally annoying.

>
> initial 5 moves were made in just 2 seconds.

I think that's right, but it took 10 seconds for the display to be correct.

>
> First 10 moves in 4-5 seconds.

No. By move 10 EACH move was taking 10 seconds.

>
> Later it took 10-15 seconds for a few moves

Ah...so you recognize that the program is not meeting the advertised
time control (10 seconds/move). When will this be fixed?

>
> And Now it is way too fast for Lightning Games.

It's also pitifully weak. It played an Alekhine's defense, so (just for
fun) I sac'd a N on f7, developed a few pieces into the center, pushed
the two center pawns down it's throat, and...ah...what's that? Q-h5 mate.

Ho hum.

Annoying interface, slower than advertised, seems to be solving
self-mate problems.

>
> Start a Game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> However if you want to play Tough games you should play Normal & Master
> Levels like Zebediah has beaten Master Level yesterday.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

You can play here - but it's not "chess".


--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/


 
Date: 16 Nov 2006 12:48:12
From: Ruud
Subject: Re: Beginner Level playing very fast.
> And Now it is way too fast for Lightning Games.

???
Please explain this to me. My native language is not English, but I allways
thought, that lighting chess, can't ever be played fast enough.
3 sec per move seems very slow for Lightning chess.
If there's something I misunderstood, then my apologies.
Otherwise, please don't agree with me, just to get me to play your game.