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Main
Date: 28 Feb 2006 12:48:14
From: Nick
Subject: Endgame Position
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r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
White to move:
How should White and Black play?
With best play, how should the game end?
--Nick
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Date: 07 Mar 2006 18:57:15
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Endgame Position
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Jarkko Pesonen wrote:
> "Nick" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >David Richerby wrote:
> >> Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
> >>
> >> Alas, winboard won't read FEN with spaces in it;
> >> better to leave them out.
> >
> >I was attempting to make the notation easier
> >for people rather than for software to read. :-)
> >
> >> But then it'll complain that the side to move isn't specified
> >> (I know you're asking for both cases).
> >
> >Sorry, I was asking only for the case of White to move.
> >
> >> Here's a FEN string that can be cut and pasted.
> >> r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w
> >>
> >> > White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
> >> > Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
> >> > White to move:
> >
> >I described (above) the FEN position in terms that
> >seem easier for at least one person (me) to visualize.
> >
> >> > How should White and Black play?
> >> > With best play, how should the game end?
> >>
> >> I'm no expert on endgames so I had a look at Mueller and Lamprecht.
> >> Unfortunately, they don't analyze any any similar positions.
> >
> >Thanks to David Richerby.
> >
> >A friend of mine looked through thousands of rook endgame positions
> >in the latest edition of ChessBase (which I don't have), and he could
> >not find anything closely comparable to my given position.
> >
> >> My guess is that it's drawn and that White should try to
> >> activate his rook, say with Rf1-f2.
> >
> >The position is from a game of mine, where I had White.
> >I did win the game, but I believe that Black (who, like me,
> >was in zeitnot) could have improved on his play.
> >
> >> But you seem to be a stronger player than I am
> >> so that's probably not much help.
> >
> >This position already has been shown to players
> >ranging in strength from about 200 BCF to an IM.
> >Both the about 200 BCF player and the IM thought
> >that White probably should win the endgame, but
> >they were unable to cite enough variations in detail
> >to prove it to my satisfaction.
> >
> >I did not mention this earlier because I preferred to
> >encourage the readers here to approach this position
> >without being influenced by others' impressions.
> >
>
> With computer I get White to win
> with line
> [Event "Blitz:2'+1""]
> [Site "Home"]
> [Date "????.??.??"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "A1."]
> [Black "Toga"]
> [Result "*"]
> [SetUp "1"]
> [FEN "r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w - - 0 1"]
> [PlyCount "25"]
> [TimeControl "120+1"]
>
> 1. Rc1 Ke6 2. Kg2 Rb8 3. Rc2 d5 4. h4 c4 5. g4 Ke5 6. Rf2 d4 7. h5 d3
> 8. Kf3 Kd4 9. h6 c3 10. bxc3+ Kxc3 11. g5 {0} Rf8+ 12. Kg3 Rxf2
> 13. Kxf2 *
>
> 1-0 with endgame tablebase
>
> Any flaws?
I think so.
I don't yet own a chess engine, and I tend to distrust such computer
analysis, particularly with little time (2' 1'', as given) of endgames.
Here are my (brief) human thoughts:
1 Rc1 Ke6 1 Rf1 warrants attention.
2 Kg2 Rb8
3 Rc2 d5
4 h4 c4 For the first moves, other move orders seem all right.
5 g4 Ke5 In some variations, White can promote the h-pawn with
check. 5...Ke5 seems a bit committal, Black may
prefer to move the king to blockade the pawns.
6 Rf2 d4
7 h5 d3
At first sight, 7...d3? seems to be an error.
Here's my suggested main line:
7... c3 8 bxc3 dxc3 9 h6 Rc8 10 h7 Rh8 11 Rf7 c2
12 Rc7 Rxh7 13 Rxc2 Kf4 14 Rc4+ Kg5 draw
Black seems to have enough resources to draw
against other attempts by White after 7...c3.
Can anyone find some improvements?
--Nick
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Date: 05 Mar 2006 15:02:39
From: Jarkko Pesonen
Subject: Re: Endgame Position
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With computer I get White to win
with line
[Event "Blitz:2'+1""]
[Site "Home"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "A1."]
[Black "Toga"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[TimeControl "120+1"]
1. Rc1 Ke6 2. Kg2 Rb8 3. Rc2 d5 4. h4 c4 5. g4 Ke5 6. Rf2 d4 7. h5 d3
8. Kf3 Kd4 9. h6 c3 10. bxc3+ Kxc3 11. g5 {0} Rf8+ 12. Kg3 Rxf2 13.
Kxf2 *
1-0 with endgame tablebase
Any flaws?
Jarkko
On 28 Feb 2006 12:48:14 -0800, "Nick" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
>
>White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
>Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
>White to move:
>
>How should White and Black play?
>With best play, how should the game end?
>
>--Nick
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Date: 03 Mar 2006 13:50:32
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Endgame Position
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David Richerby wrote:
> Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
> > r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
>
> Alas, winboard won't read FEN with spaces in it;
> better to leave them out.
I was attempting to make the notation easier
for people rather than for software to read. :-)
> But then it'll complain that the side to move isn't specified
> (I know you're asking for both cases).
Sorry, I was asking only for the case of White to move.
> Here's a FEN string that can be cut and pasted.
> r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w
>
> > White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
> > Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
> > White to move:
I described (above) the FEN position in terms that
seem easier for at least one person (me) to visualize.
> > How should White and Black play?
> > With best play, how should the game end?
>
> I'm no expert on endgames so I had a look at Mueller and Lamprecht.
> Unfortunately, they don't analyze any any similar positions.
Thanks to David Richerby.
A friend of mine looked through thousands of rook endgame positions
in the latest edition of ChessBase (which I don't have), and he could
not find anything closely comparable to my given position.
> My guess is that it's drawn and that White should try to
> activate his rook, say with Rf1-f2.
The position is from a game of mine, where I had White.
I did win the game, but I believe that Black (who, like me,
was in zeitnot) could have improved on his play.
> But you seem to be a stronger player than I am
> so that's probably not much help.
This position already has been shown to players
ranging in strength from about 200 BCF to an IM.
Both the about 200 BCF player and the IM thought
that White probably should win the endgame, but
they were unable to cite enough variations in detail
to prove it to my satisfaction.
I did not mention this earlier because I preferred to
encourage the readers here to approach this position
without being influenced by others' impressions.
--Nick
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Date: 05 Mar 2006 14:45:27
From: Jarkko Pesonen
Subject: Re: Endgame Position
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On 3 2006 13:50:32 -0800, "Nick" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>David Richerby wrote:
>> Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
>>
>> Alas, winboard won't read FEN with spaces in it;
>> better to leave them out.
>
>I was attempting to make the notation easier
>for people rather than for software to read. :-)
>
>> But then it'll complain that the side to move isn't specified
>> (I know you're asking for both cases).
>
>Sorry, I was asking only for the case of White to move.
>
>> Here's a FEN string that can be cut and pasted.
>> r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w
>>
>> > White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
>> > Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
>> > White to move:
>
>I described (above) the FEN position in terms that
>seem easier for at least one person (me) to visualize.
>
>> > How should White and Black play?
>> > With best play, how should the game end?
>>
>> I'm no expert on endgames so I had a look at Mueller and Lamprecht.
>> Unfortunately, they don't analyze any any similar positions.
>
>Thanks to David Richerby.
>
>A friend of mine looked through thousands of rook endgame positions
>in the latest edition of ChessBase (which I don't have), and he could
>not find anything closely comparable to my given position.
>
>> My guess is that it's drawn and that White should try to
>> activate his rook, say with Rf1-f2.
>
>The position is from a game of mine, where I had White.
>I did win the game, but I believe that Black (who, like me,
>was in zeitnot) could have improved on his play.
>
>> But you seem to be a stronger player than I am
>> so that's probably not much help.
>
>This position already has been shown to players
>ranging in strength from about 200 BCF to an IM.
>Both the about 200 BCF player and the IM thought
>that White probably should win the endgame, but
>they were unable to cite enough variations in detail
>to prove it to my satisfaction.
>
>I did not mention this earlier because I preferred to
>encourage the readers here to approach this position
>without being influenced by others' impressions.
>
>--Nick
With computer I get White to win
with line
[Event "Blitz:2'+1""]
[Site "Home"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "A1."]
[Black "Toga"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[TimeControl "120+1"]
1. Rc1 Ke6 2. Kg2 Rb8 3. Rc2 d5 4. h4 c4 5. g4 Ke5 6. Rf2 d4 7. h5 d3
8. Kf3 Kd4 9. h6 c3 10. bxc3+ Kxc3 11. g5 {0} Rf8+ 12. Kg3 Rxf2 13.
Kxf2 *
1-0 with endgame tablebase
Any flaws?
Jarkko
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Date: 03 Mar 2006 10:04:22
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Endgame Position
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Nick <[email protected] > wrote:
> r7 / 3k4 / 3p4 / 2p5 / 8 / 6P1 / 1P5P / 1R5K
Alas, winboard won't read FEN with spaces in it; better to leave them
out. But then it'll complain that the side to move isn't specified (I
know you're asking for both cases). Here's a FEN string that can be
cut and pasted.
r7/3k4/3p4/2p5/8/6P1/1P5P/1R5K w
> White: Kh1 Rb1 pawns: b2 g3 h2
> Black: Kd7 Ra8 pawns: c5 d6
> White to move:
>
> How should White and Black play?
> With best play, how should the game end?
I'm no expert on endgames so I had a look at Mueller and Lamprecht.
Unfortunately, they don't analyze any any similar positions. My guess
is that it's drawn and that White should try to activate his rook, say
with Rf1-f2. But you seem to be a stronger player than I am so that's
probably not much help.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Salted Bulb (TM): it's like a light
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ bulb but it's covered in salt!
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