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Main
Date: 05 Jul 2008 02:10:10
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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Now, you play at GetClub you will feel as if playing against an Human
Opponent.
It will make a few moves quickly while think longer on harder moves.
So you will not have to wait longer in simple positions and in hard
position GetClub will think longer to give best move possible.
This way GetClubs overall Strength has increased a bit. As in simple
cases long analysis is not reqired. Like when Exchanging pieces.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Now, Easy Level will play much stronger game and I have not found Help
Bot playing against it recently.
Help Bot tell me how you feel about the new improvements. Have a game
with Easy Level and see how you face it.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 21:06:59
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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On Jul 10, 12:56=A0am, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 8 Lug, 17:12, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> > > the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
> > > unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> > > time, my PC screen went completely black.
> > > I think that's enough for me.
>
> > Try again and Login & Play and tell me exactly what happen when you
> > login?
>
> > I think the game is over and it declared Game Over.
>
> > Bye
> > Sanny
>
> > PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Hi Sanny,
>
> With the utmost goodwill, I tried logging in to resume game 2 of my
> match withGetClub, but it insists on doing a Fischer on me and
> refuses to even bring up the board, let alone play. After freezing my
> firefox 4 times ( same prob with IE ) I have finally abandoned all
> hope.
> Before resigning though, since GC apparently has already declared game
> over before I could, do you know what result he decided on ?
Does your Computer allow Java scripting? If not ask it to allow
"scripting of Java" in Internet Options.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 17:55:00
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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On Jul 9, 3:56 pm, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
> With the utmost goodwill, I tried logging in to resume game 2 of my
> match with GetClub, but it insists on doing a Fischer on me and
> refuses to even bring up the board, let alone play. After freezing my
> firefox 4 times ( same prob with IE ) I have finally abandoned all
> hope.
If you had bothered to read the sign...
you would have known to abandon all hope,
ye who enter here (i.e. GetClub).
> Before resigning though, since GC apparently has already declared game
> over before I could, do you know what result he decided on ?
That's easy: Sanny and his program *always*
decide games in their own favor, as a matter of
principle. Even his "bugs" are biased.
Whenever you read that GetClub's overall record
is, say, 100/5, it is understood that perhaps half
of the five wins were really losses and/or draws.
Even Zebediah the computer operator shows a
couple of losses-- presumably not fingerfehlers
but rather, erroneous forfeits.
Try this: throw out your old computer and get
a brand new one. Then log in and create a new
player-ID, using a different name and email
address. Problem solved.
-- help bot
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 17:43:09
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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On Jul 9, 2:38 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Today again game was improved.
Thank goodness. I was getting so far ahead
with my own "improvements", that I wasn't sure
if we were even still in the same galaxy.
> So game will play Twice better moves.
Me too.
> Now, Help Bot has 2 choices either improve hig game or use some
> computers help to win?
I don't have my old Fidelity Chess Challenger
anymore, but what if I bought an old Atari2600
game machine? That could be a tough fight.
> Help Bot, now easy will play very strong moves so be careful while you
> play against easy. It is no more the carrot you used to eat.
Today I ate cucumber, pickles, olives,
tomatoes, and who knows what else;
they have a sale at Subway: foot-long
sandwiches for only $5. I've given up
Big Macs, Whoppers, half-pound hot
dogs and the like. You're gonna see a
new Ahnold.
> Yesterday 10, games were played at GetClub I was surprised to see all
> included chrisf was playing with Beginner Level. No one trying Easy
> Level as Beginner was good tough for them.
Beginner level moves quicker, so instead of
trying to switch back and forth from some
other task, they can just focus on the game.
Despite the fact that there is no real limit on
the thinking time of the human opponents at
GetClub, the fact is, all the switching between
tasks can sometimes lead to horrific blunders
(and it only takes one of these to decide the
game).
-- help bot
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 12:56:24
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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On 8 Lug, 17:12, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> > the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
> > unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> > time, my PC screen went completely black.
> > I think that's enough for me.
>
> Try again and Login & Play and tell me exactly what happen when you
> login?
>
> I think the game is over and it declared Game Over.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Hi Sanny,
With the utmost goodwill, I tried logging in to resume game 2 of my
match with GetClub, but it insists on doing a Fischer on me and
refuses to even bring up the board, let alone play. After freezing my
firefox 4 times ( same prob with IE ) I have finally abandoned all
hope.
Before resigning though, since GC apparently has already declared game
over before I could, do you know what result he decided on ?
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 11:14:43
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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> So weak players can play with Baby Level and show atleast a few games
> where they won.
Sanny, what would you say is the ELO rating of Baby Carrot level?
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 11:13:36
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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> Today again game was improved. So game will play Twice better moves.
>
> Now, Help Bot has 2 choices either improve hig game or use some
> computers help to win?
>
> Help Bot, now easy will play very strong moves so be careful while you
> play against easy. It is no more the carrot you used to eat.
Soon we shall see Sanny's name in lights on the Strip in Las Vegas, as
Sanny hits the big time.
Not as a chess programmer or chess player, but as a comedian. Sanny
The Carrot, $100 a ticket, every show sold out.
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 04:44:57
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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> =A0 The ratings on Sanny's Web site would
> themselves tell us something about these
> many "improvements", except that some
> folks seem to feel they can't compete
> without the aid of their ownchessengines.
> Zebediah has manipulated the ratings, and
> even a cursory glance at his games reveals
> an engine versus engine battle, where poor
> Sanny is simply outclassed.
A new level called "BABY LEVEL" has been created. For those who cant
beat even the Beginner Level.
If find nowadays most players play Beginner & Easy Levels.
Higher Levels: Normal, Master are not played often.
And I also saw many players getting killed by beginner again and
again.
Baby Level will make move in 2-5 sec/ move. Most of the moves will be
made in just 2 seconds.
Baby Level will not think in opponent time. So a player can think
longer still Baby Level will play same moves.
I was able to play till 40 moves with Baby Level. While Beginner Level
kills my game in just 30 moves.
So weak players can play with Baby Level and show atleast a few games
where they won.
Still it was difficult for me to tackle the Baby Level.
Help Bot has not played a game after the improvement was made So I do
not have his expactations from the games.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 09 Jul 2008 01:10:56
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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> But hey, help bot says I don't know what I'm talking about...
>
> If your car breaks down, to you go to a strangers house to ask them to
> fix it?
Thanks, for your good advices.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 23:38:42
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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> > Hey, isn't that nearly ....
>
> =A0 A record? =A0No. =A0Sanny himself holds
> the all-time-low record, with a score of
> 0-for-238, as of Dec. 12, 2007, which
> beats your zero-rating on tie-breaks.
> You came close, mister, but no cigar.
Today again game was improved. So game will play Twice better moves.
Now, Help Bot has 2 choices either improve hig game or use some
computers help to win?
Help Bot, now easy will play very strong moves so be careful while you
play against easy. It is no more the carrot you used to eat.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Yesterday 10, games were played at GetClub I was surprised to see all
included chrisf was playing with Beginner Level. No one trying Easy
Level as Beginner was good tough for them.
What do Help Bot say, Can he still compete the Easy Level?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 17:57:55
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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On Jul 7, 5:50 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> In one message Sanny writes:
>
> "3 months back GetClub was twice improved.
> 2 months back GetClub was Twice improved.
> 1 monrh back GetClub was twice improved
> 2 weeks back GetClub was Twice improved
> 3 days back GetClub was twice improved.
> So GetClub was improve 2*2*2*2*2 = 32 times. "
>
> And in the very next message, Sanny writes:
>
> "There was a bug that was removed.
> That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
> This update will slow the GetClub but make good moves."
>
> 32 times improved, but making inferior moves due to a bug. Of course
> now it will make good moves but be slower.
>
> Have we heard this before? At least 32 times?
The thinking time has been changed so that
the program will think longer on difficult moves,
and shorter on easier ones. That's the idea,
anyway. It's /feels/ a bit more like playing a
human opponent.
In one of my most recent games at GetClub,
I had K&R against K, and the program saw
checkmate coming several moves in advance
on Easy level, which is better than in the old
days. On the other hand, in that game I was
disgusted at how many times I made crude
tactical blunders, yet I still managed to win,
by a hair:
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM21991&game=Chess
The Normal level now seems to take quite
some time, as many, if not most of the
positions are judged to be worthy of long
thinks. On the other hand, my computer's
cooling fan no longer goes crazy, suggesting
a possible "improvement" of some sort which
I cannot fathom.
The ratings on Sanny's Web site would
themselves tell us something about these
many "improvements", except that some
folks seem to feel they can't compete
without the aid of their own chess engines.
Zebediah has manipulated the ratings, and
even a cursory glance at his games reveals
an engine versus engine battle, where poor
Sanny is simply outclassed.
I still believe that a stupid but tactically-
correct engine would do better than this
one, because correctly calculating tactics
is (or should be) the computer's strength
and our weakness.
-- help bot
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 08:12:59
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
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> I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
> unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> time, my PC screen went completely black.
> I think that's enough for me.
Try again and Login & Play and tell me exactly what happen when you
login?
I think the game is over and it declared Game Over.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 08:11:15
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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> And in the very next message, Sanny writes:
>
> "There was a bug that was removed.
> That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
> This update will slow theGetClubbut make good moves."
>
> 32 times improved, but making inferior moves due to a bug. =A0Of course
> now it will make good moves but be slower.
>
> Have we heard this before? =A0At least 32 times?
Bug comes without giving invitation. Whats the use of depth of search
in increased while that makes it dumb at strategy.
However whenever we find a bug we remove that immidietely even if that
reduce the performance. As correct move is our first priority.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 12:26:35
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:11:15 -0700 (PDT), Sanny <[email protected] >
wrote:
>> And in the very next message, Sanny writes:
>>
>> "There was a bug that was removed.
>> That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
>> This update will slow theGetClubbut make good moves."
>>
>> 32 times improved, but making inferior moves due to a bug. �Of course
>> now it will make good moves but be slower.
>>
>> Have we heard this before? �At least 32 times?
>
>Bug comes without giving invitation. Whats the use of depth of search
>in increased while that makes it dumb at strategy.
Simple little test which will help you out there.
If Rybka has a position scoring mode, use it. If not, any old chess
program will do. Play a game against it. Analyze the game, and
determine how far program X determines you are ahead.
I know the earlier versions of Chessmaster allowed you to adjust the
weights of pieces (which you could make it prefer knights over
bishops, or how many pieces it would trade for a queen).
Put the same position into GC, and see how close it comes to that.
Best place to start actually is the endgame (P+K v. K is probably the
simplest, the king opposing the pawn needs to remain within as many
squares as the pawn has to go to get promoted). Fewer pieces, and it's
very tactical play (you actually should be able to cheat there,
increasing ply because you don't have as many pieces). Work your way
backwards to the middle game. This also works pretty well for
verifying the correct moves of pieces.
A program often written by students is the knight's tour. You might
want to find out what that is. That also helps pave the way for game
mechanics.
You might also want to check out some chess books. They have
diagrams, and are a faster source of information than the internet.
Don't tell me you can't afford them, or don't have time. If you're
trying to make a business out of this, you'll invest some time and
money into learning exactly what in the hell you're trying to do.
You should have some scoring system, consisting of at least
- Value of pieces (e.g. pawn 1, queen 9, king MAX)
And also probably
- Increase the value of a trade when you are ahead on material.
Trading material when ahead increases how far you are ahead
proportionally (e.g. if the score is 100-90, taking 10 points from
both to 90-80 takes the advantage from .11 to .125).
- Value of pieces en prise, and a penalty if you take a piece out of
en prise.
- Value of squares controlled. You might vary the value based on how
many times a square is controlled (read Pandolfini to learn more, if
black attacks a sqaure 4 times, and white only 3, black controls the
square), and where the square is located (center game values center
squares more). A controlled square ISN'T one that has a piece on it.
You generally can tell programs that value this because they love
closed games.
- Value of a square with a piece on it that is protected by other
pieces.
More nuanced checks (which might be fractions of a pawn):
- Value of connected versus unconnected pawns. Slight penalty for
doubled pawns.
- Value of sqaures controlled when you only have one bishop, and the
square is the same color as the bishop.
If you can't do this because the program is written in a fashion where
you can't do this, you're an arrogant idiot (and help bot calls me
arrogant... I'm not the one thinking I could write a chess program
correct ON THE FIRST TRY. Maybe he thinks he can).
It's called UNIT TESTING. The more programs you use to evaluate the
position, the better GC should be. That's called REVERSE ENGINEERING
(black-box because you're not looking at the source).
And programmers make bugs. Don't tell me otherwise. They generally
appear because somebody didn't think or understand. The better you
know what you're doing, the fewer bugs you will have.
>
>However whenever we find a bug we remove that immidietely even if that
>reduce the performance. As correct move is our first priority.
Bullshit. If a correct move was truly your first priority, it would
have made correct moves before we ever saw it. One of the biggest
excuses programmers and managers make is there wasn't enough time to
test.
The other thing that is downright annoying, is you don't really go
into any detail of the bugs.
Also, your 'human' play may hide it's tactical blind spots at the
moment, but if someone plays a few games, it will become pretty
obvious (c.f. security by obscurity).
And, you should be thankful people are playing your program, and not
be upset that people are using chess programs to beat it. Even people
on ICC complain about that.
Finally, a lot of bugs are linear. It's like a water pipe with a
bunch of leaks in it. Fix one, and the next one down the line becomes
obvious. Fixing the one doesn't make the program any better.
In reality the bug shows that the programs wasn't half as much as it
was claimed to be. Better get proactive, or you will be able to see
how many bugs people tolerate before they give up (one catastrophic
bug every 2 hours... probably every other game of chess).
Don't think for a moment you're really convincing anyone that bugs
come out of the blue. People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan.
But hey, help bot says I don't know what I'm talking about...
If your car breaks down, to you go to a strangers house to ask them to
fix it?
>
>Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
>
>
>
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 11:08:18
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
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Sanny wrote:
>> And in the very next message, Sanny writes:
>>
>> "There was a bug that was removed.
>> That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
>> This update will slow theGetClubbut make good moves."
>>
>> 32 times improved, but making inferior moves due to a bug. Of course
>> now it will make good moves but be slower.
>>
>> Have we heard this before? At least 32 times?
>
> Bug comes without giving invitation. Whats the use of depth of search
> in increased while that makes it dumb at strategy.
>
> However whenever we find a bug we remove that immidietely even if that
> reduce the performance. As correct move is our first priority.
>
You remove bugs immediately?
OK - here's a bug report: you program does not observe the time limit.
Please advise when this is fixed.
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 08 Jul 2008 00:59:44
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On Jul 7, 2:38 pm, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
> > > I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> > > the fact that I've brough to an endgame
Hmm-- so you couldn't beat GC in the
opening or in the middle-game, eh?
> > > R+Ps v. Ps with an
> > > unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> > > time, my PC screen went completely black.
That is just the latest in a long line of
"improvements".
> > Ratings are for people and programs that don't cheat. GetClub is rated
> > zero.
> That's a pity, with my 2/2 my " Sanny rating " would be around 2350.
Your second games was banished to
Oblivion-- it doesn't count for rating
purposes. A few quick calculations...
your provisional rating at GC is zero,
based on one win against an opponent
rated zero. (Note that even if we were
to "give you" the other game, it would
still come out to zero.)
> Hey, isn't that nearly ....
A record? No. Sanny himself holds
the all-time-low record, with a score of
0-for-238, as of Dec. 12, 2007, which
beats your zero-rating on tie-breaks.
You came close, mister, but no cigar.
-- help bot
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Date: 07 Jul 2008 14:50:06
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug found and removed.
|
In one message Sanny writes:
"3 months back GetClub was twice improved.
2 months back GetClub was Twice improved.
1 monrh back GetClub was twice improved
2 weeks back GetClub was Twice improved
3 days back GetClub was twice improved.
So GetClub was improve 2*2*2*2*2 = 32 times. "
And in the very next message, Sanny writes:
"There was a bug that was removed.
That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
This update will slow the GetClub but make good moves."
32 times improved, but making inferior moves due to a bug. Of course
now it will make good moves but be slower.
Have we heard this before? At least 32 times?
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Date: 07 Jul 2008 14:29:41
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Sanny's Delusions of Grandeur (was: Even Easy Level will win you
|
On Jul 6, 11:39 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Help Bot complained me that lower levels are getting higher rating So
> he do not play with Higher Levels.
In reality, I was merely explaining why I preferred to
play the lower levels, and not the higher ones Sanny
kept requesting I play.
> For real Comparision.
>
> I played 3 games against IVAN rated 1800+ and GetClub easily defeated
> IVAN So I guessed the correct rating.
Easily? What about the first game-- the one
played out here in rgcm, which did not go like
a strawberry smoothie, but more like broken
glass.
> Zebediah is using 2900+ rated program against higher levels and
> winning all the games So it is very difficult to assess correct rating
> based on that.
I don't know which program Zeb is using, but when
I looked at his moves using Rybka, she was not very
impressed. As always, numbers are just being pulled
out of a hat.
> So people use brains only when playing with Beginner & Easy Levels.
> While those playing with Normal/ Master take help of other Commercial
> programs rated 3000+.
Perhaps they believed the "stories" they saw
posted here in rgc, and thought it was hopeless?
> I would have agreed But GetClub Easy Level has beaten IVAN with 1800+
> rating 3 times. So Beginner Level is atleast 2100+ as the game has
> been improved 5 times by then.
I am patiently waiting for all these "improvements"
to get the program up to my own level-- roughly
47,000,000 USCF.
-- help bot
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Date: 07 Jul 2008 14:17:23
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Sanny's Delusions of Grandeur (was: Even Easy Level will win you
|
On Jul 6, 11:02 am, [email protected] wrote:
> Has anyone bothered to look at the actual results for GetClub's
> various levels, as posted by Sanny himself:
>
> Advanced: +2 -51
> Master: +18 -300
> Normal: +14 -270
>
> Overall, Sanny's top 3 levels lose about 94.5% of the time.
> According to the Percentage Expectancy Table on page 31 of Elo's "The
> Rating of Chessplayers," that means that GetClub's Elo rating is
> somewhere around 433 to 484 Elo points *_below_* its average
> opposition. For his program to be truly at master strength (at least
> 2200) its opponents would have to be rated on average at least 2633,
> i.e. strong FIDE GM level. For it to be 2400, it could only have
> played Gary Kasparov in his prime.
> Obviously GetClub's opponents have not been world-class GMs -- they
> have been the ordinary schmoes who post here, the strongest of whom
> are probably no more than 2200 themselves, and who on average are
> probably closer to 1800 or even 1600, which is about the average adult
> level.
One problem with this "analysis" is the clueless way
in which it just assumes everything. For instance,
Zebediah is obviously using a chess engine, which
might very well be in the GM class mentioned above.
Even so, there are many others who obviously don't
use computer help, and as the GC program has lost
the vast majority of its games, we can conclude that
it was nowhere near Sanny's rating numbers.
> Therefore, I would say a more reasonable estimate of GetClub's
> strength is closer to Elo 1400, at best.
That works out fine, so long as Sanny's many
"improvements" are not considered to be real ones.
If, on the other hand, we were to note that the
early versions were /obviously/ below 1000 strength,
an adjustment of some kind is in order. One cannot
simply slop all the data together, mix and stir to
form a homogenized product. I cannot but begin to
guesstimate the /real/ improvement over time, but it
certainly has gone from making me feel like a chess
genius on the same level as Paul Morphy, to
something more human-like, where I must work a
bit in order to win.
My guess is that while Sanny has consistently
over-rated his program, his harshest critics have
erred by a similar margin in the other direction.
But since there is no real time limit on the human
opponents, "normal" rating numbers cannot tell
the whole story here.
-- help bot
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Date: 07 Jul 2008 11:38:25
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On 7 Lug, 20:07, "J.D. Walker" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Alessandro J. wrote:
> > On 7 Lug, 18:31, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> > the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
> > unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> > time, my PC screen went completely black.
> > I think that's enough for me.
>
> Ratings are for people and programs that don't cheat. =A0GetClub is rated
> zero.
>
> --
>
> "Do that which is right..."
>
> Rev. J.D. Walker
That's a pity, with my 2/2 my " Sanny rating " would be around 2350.
Hey, isn't that nearly ....
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Date: 07 Jul 2008 10:54:22
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On 7 Lug, 18:31, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
> Well, Easy fared relatively better, but I think it misplayed in the
> critical position, which is a very bad omen as it was a tactical one.
> As I type I am up a Queen for a Bishop with different mating patterns
> cropping up. Someone should teach GC when the right moment to resign
> is.
> Is it alright to gloat in here ?
I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
time, my PC screen went completely black.
I think that's enough for me.
In my opinion, Beginner is around 1300, and Easy 1600 , they both
exhibit very primitive strategical knowledge, and tactically I think
it's pretty weak.
Best of luck for your business venture.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jul 2008 11:07:30
From: J.D. Walker
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
Alessandro J. wrote:
> On 7 Lug, 18:31, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I tried to finish the game, but GC refuses to concede regardless of
> the fact that I've brough to an endgame R+Ps v. Ps with an
> unassailable passer. Suddenly, after having logged in for the 5th
> time, my PC screen went completely black.
> I think that's enough for me.
Ratings are for people and programs that don't cheat. GetClub is rated
zero.
--
"Do that which is right..."
Rev. J.D. Walker
|
| |
Date: 07 Jul 2008 09:31:50
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On 7 Lug, 07:25, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Please tell me which were the moves that were infirior and what were
> the correct moves instead.
You're out of luck : I don't play the Dutch Defense, and its
definitely the worst opening to play against for me, as Im totally
clueless about the positions arising.
Generally, GC played his king's knight three times to exchange it with
my queen's knight, which is bad opening strategy in any opening, but
really, Kf8 was patently absurd. I think the game is pretty much over
after that.
> Well it was Beginner Level the weakest of all levels.
>
> Complete your game with Easy Level and then we will see the real game.
> As Easy will play much stronger game than Beginner Level.
Well, Easy fared relatively better, but I think it misplayed in the
critical position, which is a very bad omen as it was a tactical one.
As I type I am up a Queen for a Bishop with different mating patterns
cropping up. Someone should teach GC when the right moment to resign
is.
Is it alright to gloat in here ?
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 23:23:53
From: Sanny
Subject: Bug found and removed.
|
There was a bug that was removed.
That bug was causing it to make inferior moves.
This update will slow the GetClub but make good moves.
Now it will search one depth low but make better moves.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 22:41:00
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
> > However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
> > estimates his program's ratings.
>
> Apparently Sanny's rating system is based on the old P T Barnum
> observation that "there is a sucker born every minute..."
Here is how I calculate programs Rating.
3 months back Easy Level beat IVAN 3 times. IVAN is 1800 rated as per
the developers of IVAN.
Easy == 1800 (3 months back.) So Easy was about 1900+ 3 months back.
After playing with IVAN game was improved a lot.
3 months back GetClub was twice improved.
2 months back GetClub was Twice improved.
1 monrh back GetClub was twice improved
2 weeks back GetClub was Twice improved
3 days back GetClub was twice improved.
So GetClub was improve 2*2*2*2*2 = 32 times.
So I give + 50 for each Twice improvement. So total improvement is
5*50 - 250.
So Currently Easy Rating is 1900+250=2150
Since Easy Level is 2150
So Approx rating is
Beginner 2100+
Easy: 2200+
Normal: 2300+
Master: 2400+
If your rating is less than 2300 I think you cannot win the Normal
Level. Anyone with lower than 2300 able to win the Normal Level?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 22:29:39
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
> > However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
> > estimates his program's ratings.
>
> =A0 It's called imagination.
Its imagination, Life is its creation. Come on baby lets go Crazy, Ha
Ha Ha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dh1wO6EspvmM
A song you will all like.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 22:25:23
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
> It was with great trepidation that I sat down to play my first game atGetClubthis afternoon, seeing the legendary status that it has
> acquired in this corner of the net.
The best thing you did in your life is played at GetClub Chess.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> Imagine my joy when I swept " Beginner " away in around 30 moves !
> I then settled to a much harder challenge, " Easy " . Unfortunately,
> after having to re enter the site a few times, I decided to give up
> when theGetClubdecided to freeze my entire PC as opposed to only the
> web page. Easy was faring rather better, maybe cause I took Black and
> played a Caro - Kann just to see how it would deal with it, but I must
> say it was painfully slow.
Please tell me which were the moves that were infirior and what were
the correct moves instead.
Game Played between alessandro j. and beginner at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alessandro j.: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM21775&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(alessandro j.) -- (beginner)
1. d2-d4{12} f7-f5{2}
2. c2-c4{14} Ng8-f6{0}
3. Nb1-c3{2} Nb8-c6{28}
4. Ng1-f3{8} d7-d6{16}
5. Bc1-g5{6} Nf6-e4{6}
6. Bg5-h4{24} g7-g6{10}
7. e2-e3{10} Ne4-c3{16}
8. b2-c3{4} Bf8-g7{16}
9. Qd1-c2{10} Ra8-b8{32}
10. Bf1-d3{6} d6-d5{10}
11. Ke1-g1{8} Ke8-f8{24}
12. c4-d5{12} Qd8-d5{18}
13. c3-c4{6} Qd5-d7{44}
14. Rf1-e1{10} Qd7-d6{16}
15. Ra1-b1{10} Rb8-a8{20}
16. e3-e4{72} Bg7-d4{6}
17. e4-f5{8} b7-b6{52}
18. f5-g6{32} Bc8-g4{32}
19. Bd3-e4{12} Ra8-b8{46}
20. Be4-c6{18} Bd4-f6{18}
21. Bh4-f6{46} e7-f6{0}
22. Qc2-e4{42} Bg4-f3{24}
23. Qe4-f3{2} h7-g6{6}
24. h2-h3{12} f6-f5{24}
25. Rb1-d1{4} Qd6-c5{8}
26. Qf3-c3{18} Rh8-h7{32}
27. Bc6-d5{4} Qc5-d6{6}
28. Re1-e6{6} Qd6-d7{22}
29. Re6-f6{64} Kf8-e8{28}
30. Rd1-e1{20} Rh7-e7{64}
31. Rf6-f8{8} Ke8-f8{0}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alessandro j.: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM21775&game=Chess
Well it was Beginner Level the weakest of all levels.
Complete your game with Easy Level and then we will see the real game.
As Easy will play much stronger game than Beginner Level.
Once you login you can start your old game from the point you leave.
Thats a good thing, So you can complete a game in 2-3 days playing
just 10 min per day.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 22:15:16
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Even Easy Level will win you !!!
|
On Jul 7, 1:50=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > A new thing was done to improveGetClubChessSo it is not working on
> > some browsers.
>
> This is actually a correct statement. =A0The program was improved so it
> would not work on Firefox, thereby saving the time of people foolish
> enough to bother with GitClub.
Thanks God, It is now working on Firefox. So the problem is removed.
> But being foolish enough, I gave it another try, and the applet loads
> this time (on Firefox). =A0I took Black. =A0Sanny's program opened with
> 1.b3 (!) and announced that it had just played Rh1. =A0After 1. ... e5
> 2. Bb2 it then announced that it had just played ... Rh1. =A0At that
> point, I resigned. =A0Who can possibly defeat such an advanced program?
It says Rh1 when It is playing Opening moves from memory. Once Opening
is over It will display correct move.
Which level you were playing with? You can restart your game from
where you left and complete it to see how it played.
In Opening moves it plays from its memory So do not display correct
move. But it does not mean it will play wrong moves.
Complete that game and let us see how the game goes.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 ..... Its a good start. And this opening is in its
memory.
> In whose dreams? =A0Sanny refuses to do anything but pull ratings out of
> his butt. =A0How about a real test on FICS or ICC, Sanny-boy?
I joined FICS they accepted my program but when I login they do not
allow my login. As my old login was banned when they found me taking
help of computer. But After they accepted me with Computer Account
they should have removed the ban. I do not understand why they do not
allow the Computer account. As it is seperate than the old acount.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 14:51:34
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On 6 Lug, 21:44, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jul 6, 2:05=A0pm, "Alessandro J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
> > estimates his program's ratings.
>
> =A0 It's called imagination.
Quite a vivid one, admittedly.
Not surprising, considering the rest of the web site.
Kudos really, It's starting to look more and more like that " MI5 is
watching me " cross-poster.
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 13:50:30
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Even Easy Level will win you !!!
|
> A new thing was done to improve GetClub Chess So it is not working on
> some browsers.
This is actually a correct statement. The program was improved so it
would not work on Firefox, thereby saving the time of people foolish
enough to bother with GitClub.
But being foolish enough, I gave it another try, and the applet loads
this time (on Firefox). I took Black. Sanny's program opened with
1.b3 (!) and announced that it had just played Rh1. After 1. ... e5
2. Bb2 it then announced that it had just played ... Rh1. At that
point, I resigned. Who can possibly defeat such an advanced program?
GitClub maybe the world's strongest carrot, but there are still some
bugs to work out.
> New Ratings to all Levels.
> Beginner: 2100+
> Easy: 2200+
> Normal: 2300+
> Master: 2400+
In whose dreams? Sanny refuses to do anything but pull ratings out of
his butt. How about a real test on FICS or ICC, Sanny-boy?
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 12:44:11
From:
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On Jul 6, 2:05=A0pm, "Alessandro J." <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
> estimates his program's ratings.
It's called imagination.
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 11:05:51
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
On 5 Lug, 11:10, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Now, you play at GetClub you will feel as if playing against an Human
> Opponent.
I think this last point has some validity.
It was with great trepidation that I sat down to play my first game at
GetClub this afternoon, seeing the legendary status that it has
acquired in this corner of the net.
Imagine my joy when I swept " Beginner " away in around 30 moves !
I then settled to a much harder challenge, " Easy " . Unfortunately,
after having to re enter the site a few times, I decided to give up
when the GetClub decided to freeze my entire PC as opposed to only the
web page. Easy was faring rather better, maybe cause I took Black and
played a Caro - Kann just to see how it would deal with it, but I must
say it was painfully slow.
I would say Beginner's rating is in the 1300 area, but one way in
which it is considerably better than commercial programs which
artificially handicap themselves, with the result that they play
perfectly reasonable moves for a while before hanging a piece, as
opposed to GetClub which will never hang a piece deliberately,
contenting itself to playing considerably inferior moves positionally,
allowing its opponent to actually win by actively exploiting inferior
moves, rather than just take the point that is being handed him/her
like the better programs do.
I would say GetClub makes a good sparring partner for anyone up to
1400.
However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
estimates his program's ratings.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 13:01:39
From: J.D. Walker
Subject: Re: GetClub will play like Human Beings.
|
Alessandro J. wrote:
> On 5 Lug, 11:10, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Now, you play at GetClub you will feel as if playing against an Human
>> Opponent.
>
<snip >
> I would say GetClub makes a good sparring partner for anyone up to
> 1400.
> However, I am slightly puzzled as to the means by which Sanny
> estimates his program's ratings.
Apparently Sanny's rating system is based on the old P T Barnum
observation that "there is a sucker born every minute..."
People that enjoy collecting bent bottle caps and knitting cobwebs will
probably enjoy GetClub.
--
"Do that which is right..."
Rev. J.D. Walker
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 08:46:10
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Sanny's Delusions of Grandeur (was: Even Easy Level will win you
|
On Jul 6, 10:39 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> If World Champion plays 2200+ player 100 times and win all the times
> Will you say that 2200+ rated player is having a rating of 400?
You don't understand the least thing about ratings. Please quit making
claims until you have at least read a damn book.
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 08:39:31
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Sanny's Delusions of Grandeur (was: Even Easy Level will win you
|
> >GetClubis now only 8 times weaker than Rybka. Earlier it was 16 times
> > weaker.
>
> > New Ratings to all Levels.
>
> > Beginner: 2100+
> > Easy: 2200+
> > Normal: 2300+
> > Master: 2400+
Yes +/- 100.
> =A0 Has anyone bothered to look at the actual results forGetClub's
> various levels, as posted by Sanny himself:
>
> =A0 Advanced: +2 -51
> =A0 Master: +18 -300
> =A0 Normal: +14 -270
Actually thats because Zebediah uses Computer to berat all higher
levels.
Fortunately he do not play Beginner & Easy Levels.
So
Easy: Won: 114, Lost: 355
Beginner: Won: 404, Lost: 790
Out of 790 games Beginner lost 386 games. Most of them are when the
Program was new. If you search back you will find 90% of the games
plated against Beginner by weak players are won by Beginner Level.
You can see lower levels has scored higher than Top levels.
The reasion is weak players play with lower levels and keep loosing.
And people using Computer keep beating the top levels.
So to adjust this I have given each level rating based on strength
instead of number of lost/ win.
I remember 1 year back Zebediah made Master Level: 300 Rating. While
Beginner was having 1100 Rating.
Help Bot complained me that lower levels are getting higher rating So
he do not play with Higher Levels.
For real Comparision.
I played 3 games against IVAN rated 1800+ and GetClub easily defeated
IVAN So I guessed the correct rating.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 Overall, Sanny's top 3 levels lose about 94.5% of the time.
> According to the Percentage Expectancy Table on page 31 of Elo's "The
If World Champion plays 2200+ player 100 times and win all the times
Will you say that 2200+ rated player is having a rating of 400?
Zebediah is using 2900+ rated program against higher levels and
winning all the games So it is very difficult to assess correct rating
based on that.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> Rating of Chessplayers," that means thatGetClub'sElo rating is
> somewhere around 433 to 484 Elo points *_below_* its average
> opposition. For his program to be truly at master strength (at least
> 2200) its opponents would have to be rated on average at least 2633,
People using Fritz/ Rybka are actually 3000+ rated. and they keep
using Computer to win all the games.
There is no way to find out what the opponent is using while playing
the game.
I myself has beaten Normal Level 10 times using help of Rybka. But
when I play with Beginner Level I get lost in just 30 moves.
So people use brains only when playing with Beginner & Easy Levels.
While those playing with Normal/ Master take help of other Commercial
programs rated 3000+.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 Therefore, I would say a more reasonable estimate ofGetClub's
> strength is closer to Elo 1400, at best.
I would have agreed But GetClub Easy Level has beaten IVAN with 1800+
rating 3 times. So Beginner Level is atleast 2100+ as the game has
been improved 5 times by then.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 08:02:54
From:
Subject: Sanny's Delusions of Grandeur (was: Even Easy Level will win you !!!)
|
On Jul 6, 5:23=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> GetClub is now only 8 times weaker than Rybka. Earlier it was 16 times
> weaker.
>
> New Ratings to all Levels.
>
> Beginner: 2100+
> Easy: 2200+
> Normal: 2300+
> Master: 2400+
Has anyone bothered to look at the actual results for GetClub's
various levels, as posted by Sanny himself:
Advanced: +2 -51
Master: +18 -300
Normal: +14 -270
Overall, Sanny's top 3 levels lose about 94.5% of the time.
According to the Percentage Expectancy Table on page 31 of Elo's "The
Rating of Chessplayers," that means that GetClub's Elo rating is
somewhere around 433 to 484 Elo points *_below_* its average
opposition. For his program to be truly at master strength (at least
2200) its opponents would have to be rated on average at least 2633,
i.e. strong FIDE GM level. For it to be 2400, it could only have
played Gary Kasparov in his prime.
Obviously GetClub's opponents have not been world-class GMs -- they
have been the ordinary schmoes who post here, the strongest of whom
are probably no more than 2200 themselves, and who on average are
probably closer to 1800 or even 1600, which is about the average adult
level.
Therefore, I would say a more reasonable estimate of GetClub's
strength is closer to Elo 1400, at best.
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2008 02:23:23
From: Sanny
Subject: Even Easy Level will win you !!!
|
Today again improvement was done. So now Help Bot will not be able to
win against Easy Level which will play Twice stronger moves now.
If you have problem in downloading Java Applet let me know it. I will
remove a few modifications to have it playable.
A new thing was done to improve GetClub Chess So it is not working on
some browsers.
After a correction I tested on Firefox and Internet Explorer It is
working fine on my computer.
Let me know if someone is unable to play the game.
Today I played a game against Rybka.
Rybka was able to get advance its pawns and get 2 Queen and win the
game.
GetClub is now only 8 times weaker than Rybka. Earlier it was 16 times
weaker.
New Ratings to all Levels.
Beginner: 2100+
Easy: 2200+
Normal: 2300+
Master: 2400+
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
So you will get a great Challenge even by the Beginner Level.
Game Played between Rybka and easy at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM21721&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(Rybka ) -- (easy)
1. e2-e4{4} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{14} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{18} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-a4{14} d7-d6{0}
5. Ke1-g1{18} Bc8-e6{96}
6. Nb1-c3{18} b7-b5{60}
7. Ba4-b3{20} Be6-b3{64}
8. c2-b3{14} Nc6-d4{78}
9. Nf3-d4{22} e5-d4{40}
10. Nc3-d5{8} Ng8-f6{108}
11. Rf1-e1{26} Nf6-d5{54}
12. e4-d5{34} Bf8-e7{32}
13. a2-a4{22} Ke8-g8{26}
14. a4-b5{32} Rf8-e8{122}
15. b5-a6{32} Be7-h4{180}
16. g2-g3{56} Re8-e1{64}
17. Qd1-e1{16} Qd8-e7{44}
18. Qe1-e7{20} Bh4-e7{30}
19. Kg1-f1{82} Ra8-a7{42}
20. Kf1-e2{26} c7-c5{22}
21. d5-c6{38} Be7-d8{92}
22. Ke2-d3{20} Bd8-b6{30}
23. b3-b4{22} f7-f6{84}
24. b2-b3{22} h7-h6{60}
25. Bc1-b2{34} h6-h5{276}
26. Bb2-d4{28} Bb6-d4{42}
27. Kd3-d4{6} f6-f5{88}
28. b4-b5{20} Ra7-a8{144}
29. b5-b6{58} Ra8-e8{140}
30. a6-a7{36} Kg8-f7{46}
31. b6-b7{38} Re8-e4{60}
32. Kd4-c3{26} Re4-e8{162}
33. Qa7-a8{Q}{22} f5-f4{178}
34. Qa8-e8{56} Kf7-e8{38}
35. Qb7-b8{Q}{24} Ke8-f7{34}
36. c6-c7{82} f4-g3{0}
37. Qc7-c8{Q}{18} g7-g6{80}
38. Qc8-f8{18} Kf7-f8{0}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM21721&game=Chess
So, do you see the improvements in GetClub Chess. Is there any further
improvement you are looking for?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
|
