Main
Date: 23 Apr 2005 11:09:37
From: Tantale
Subject: Is this endgame winning ?
8/pK5p/7P/1k2p2P/p3P3/P6B/5p2/8 w - - 0 17

White Kb7 Bischop h3 Pawns a3 e4 h5 h6
Black Kb5 Pawns a7 a4 e5 f2 h7
White to Play

Up to now I see the best idea for white is to eat the a7 pawn but Black and
White make a Queen.

Thanks

--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)






 
Date: 23 Apr 2005 16:26:12
From: anthony mee
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
hello Tantale,

with what do you want to eat the 'h' pawn? I presume with the King - this
takes 9 tempi in which time black's king has the 'a' pawn and his own
promoted!
I think you need to check the king first and take the 'a' pawns (both) with
your King if he goes for the 'e' pawn (which he has to the way to the 'a'
pawn is too far) you will lose your Bishop but promote your 'a' pawn
quickest. The King has to be very active and the Bishop passive in this one.
Try it out.

Anthony
"Tantale" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> 8/pK5p/7P/1k2p2P/p3P3/P6B/5p2/8 w - - 0 17
>
> White Kb7 Bischop h3 Pawns a3 e4 h5 h6
> Black Kb5 Pawns a7 a4 e5 f2 h7
> White to Play
>
> Up to now I see the best idea for white is to eat the a7 pawn but Black
> and White make a Queen.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> http://www.jmrw.com/
> J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
> est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.
>
> Pascal (Pensées)
>
>




  
Date: 23 Apr 2005 20:00:54
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
anthony mee wrote :
>I just noticed that after 1Bf1 Black can try for stalemale with ...Ka5 -
>but after 2 Kc8 white can then go to the 'h' pawn and win.

I have just noticed now.

This position comes from a study of
Pervakovhttp://www.jmrw.com/Chess/Pervakov/base.htm the last one.

After 13 ... Qa8+ I now understand the purpose of a6 wich just introduce a
stalmate trap.
In fact we get the same position as the one in the study after 17 Kc8 Kb5
18 Bf1+ Kc5 19 Kd7 Kd4 . And the way to win is given by Pervakov himself.
(The position of the black upper a pawn, a6 or a7 has no importance at all)

Thanks




  
Date: 23 Apr 2005 19:33:16
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
anthony mee wrote :
> I think you need to check the king first and take the 'a' pawns (both)
> with your King if he goes for the 'e' pawn (which he has to the way to the
> 'a' pawn is too far) you will lose your Bishop but promote your 'a' pawn
> quickest. The King has to be very active and the Bishop passive in this
> one.
> Try it out.

Thanks -:)

First 1.Bf1+ ok
I think to take the two a pawns as the Black King take the e pawn is too
slow. The black e and f pawns are too dangerous.
I keep on believing that the best idea is to try and eat the h pawn but I
think it is as draw

JMR


--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)




  
Date: 23 Apr 2005 16:45:40
From: anthony mee
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
I just noticed that after 1Bf1 Black can try for stalemale with ...Ka5 - but
after 2 Kc8 white can then go to the 'h' pawn and win.
"anthony mee" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> hello Tantale,
>
> with what do you want to eat the 'h' pawn? I presume with the King - this
> takes 9 tempi in which time black's king has the 'a' pawn and his own
> promoted!
> I think you need to check the king first and take the 'a' pawns (both)
> with your King if he goes for the 'e' pawn (which he has to the way to the
> 'a' pawn is too far) you will lose your Bishop but promote your 'a' pawn
> quickest. The King has to be very active and the Bishop passive in this
> one.
> Try it out.
>
> Anthony
> "Tantale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> 8/pK5p/7P/1k2p2P/p3P3/P6B/5p2/8 w - - 0 17
>>
>> White Kb7 Bischop h3 Pawns a3 e4 h5 h6
>> Black Kb5 Pawns a7 a4 e5 f2 h7
>> White to Play
>>
>> Up to now I see the best idea for white is to eat the a7 pawn but Black
>> and White make a Queen.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>> http://www.jmrw.com/
>> J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose,
>> qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.
>>
>> Pascal (Pensées)
>>
>>
>
>




   
Date: 23 Apr 2005 22:13:52
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
anthony mee wrote:
> I just noticed that after 1Bf1 Black can try for stalemale with ...Ka5 - but
> after 2 Kc8 white can then go to the 'h' pawn and win.

1. Bf1+ Ka5 2. Ba6 f1Q 3. Bxf1 a6 4. Bh3 plan Bf5xh7 wins.

Claus-Juergen


 
Date: 23 Apr 2005 11:11:10
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
> Up to now I see the best idea for white is to eat the a7 pawn but Black
> and

Not the a7 but the h7 pawn !

"Tantale" <[email protected] > a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]
> 8/pK5p/7P/1k2p2P/p3P3/P6B/5p2/8 w - - 0 17
>
> White Kb7 Bischop h3 Pawns a3 e4 h5 h6
> Black Kb5 Pawns a7 a4 e5 f2 h7
> White to Play
>
> Up to now I see the best idea for white is to eat the a7 pawn but Black
> and White make a Queen.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> http://www.jmrw.com/
> J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
> est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.
>
> Pascal (Pensées)
>
>




  
Date: 23 Apr 2005 22:00:29
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Tantale wrote:
> Not the a7 but the h7 pawn !
>>8/pK5p/7P/1k2p2P/p3P3/P6B/5p2/8 w - - 0 17

Still both sides get a queen.

1. Bf1+ Kc5 2. Kc7 Kd4 3. Kd6 Kxe4 4. Ke6 Kf4 5. Kf6 e4 6. Kg7 e3 7.=20
Kxh7 e2 8. Bxe2+ Kxe2 9. Kg8 f1Q 10. h8Q.

Now 10...Qg2+ 11. Qg7 Qd5+ 12. Qf7 Qd6

White has difficulties to advance the h-pawn. Just an example:

13. Qc4+ Kd2 14. Qg4

14. Qxa4 Qd5+ followed by Qxh5 is of course a draw.

14...Qd8+ 16. Kf7 Qc7+ 17. Ke8 Qb8+ 18. Ke7 Qe5+ 19. Kd7 Qd5+ 20. Kc7=20
Qc5+ 21. Kb8 Qb6+ 22. Ka8 Qd8+ 23. Kxa7 Qa5+

White has no place to hide his king.


The key to win this endgame is to not go for a passed pawn at all but=20
eliminating the black e and f pawns first.

1. Bf1+ is absolutely necessary to prevent the black king to go for the=20
a-pawn.

1...Kc5 2. Ka6!

Not 2. Kxa7 Kd4 2. Kb6 Kc3 =3D 3. Kb5 Kb3 4. Bc4+ Kxa3 (the pawn White=20
needs to win is gone) 5. Ka5 Kb2 6. Kxa4 Kc3 7. Bf1 Kd4 8. Bg2 f1Q 9.=20
Bxf1 Kxe4. Black now hides on h8, White has the bishop with the wrong col=
or.
For 2. Kc7 see above.

2...Kd4 Black's only chance.

3. Kb5 Kxe4

3...a6+ 4. Kb4 a5+ 5. Kxa5 Kxe4 6. Kb4 Kd4 7. Bc4 Ke3 8. Kc3 doesn't=20
help Black.

4. Kc4 Kf3 5. Kd3 e4+ 6. Kd2 a6

6...e3+ 7. Kd3 a6 8. Be2+ Kg2 9. Kxe3 and wins.

7. Be2+ Kg2 8. Ke3 and wins.

Claus-J=FCrgen


   
Date: 23 Apr 2005 23:15:20
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Claus-Jürgen wrote :
>The key to win this endgame is to not go for a passed pawn at all but
>eliminating the black e and f pawns first.

I completly agree with your plan and I think there is not are other way to
win.

I think that 2.Kc7 with the same idea works too. The path on the white King
to go and block the black e and f pawn is not unique.

JMR






    
Date: 24 Apr 2005 15:29:34
From: Oliver Maas
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Hi,

but there is a difference:
1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Ka6! Kd4 3.Kb5 and now after 3... Kc3 comes 4.Kxa4 +-
1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Kc7?! Kd4 3.Kc6 and now 3... Kc3! (not 3... Kxe4? 4.Kc5 +-) -
Black takes the White a-pawn and gets counterplay, f. ex. 4.Kb5 Kb3 5.Be2
Kxa3 6.Bc4 Kb2 7.Kxa4 Kc3! 8.Bf1 Kd2! and now its Black who is playing for
the win.

I think only 2.Ka6! is able to manage 3... Kc3.

friendly greetings

Oliver

"Tantale" <[email protected] > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Claus-Jürgen wrote :
> >The key to win this endgame is to not go for a passed pawn at all but
> >eliminating the black e and f pawns first.
>
> I completly agree with your plan and I think there is not are other way
to
> win.
>
> I think that 2.Kc7 with the same idea works too. The path on the white
King
> to go and block the black e and f pawn is not unique.
>
> JMR





     
Date: 24 Apr 2005 16:39:20
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Oliver Maas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> but there is a difference:
> 1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Ka6! Kd4 3.Kb5 and now after 3... Kc3 comes 4.Kxa4 +-
> 1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Kc7?! Kd4 3.Kc6 and now 3... Kc3! (not 3... Kxe4? 4.Kc5 +-) -

White can win in the Kc7 line also, if he plays 3. Kd6. Now Kc3 loses
because White queens the e-pawn.

2. Kc7 Kd4 3. Kd6 Kc3 (3...Kxe4 4. Kc5) 4. Kxe5 Kb2 5. Kd4! Kxa3 6. Kc3!
Ka2 7. Kc2 followed by e5.

Black isn't able to queen the a-pawn, also a stalemate isn't possible.

Claus-Juergen


     
Date: 24 Apr 2005 16:21:30
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Oliver Maas wrote :
> 1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Kc7?! Kd4 --> 3.Kc6 <-- and now after 3... Kc3 comes 4.Kxa4
> +-

I think that on -- > 3 Kd6 <-- after 3... Kc3 4 Kxe5 wins for white

greetings

--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)




      
Date: 24 Apr 2005 18:33:49
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Tantale wrote:
>>1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Kc7?! Kd4 --> 3.Kc6 <-- and now after 3... Kc3 comes 4.Kxa4
> I think that on --> 3 Kd6 <-- after 3... Kc3 4 Kxe5 wins for white

This is correct but White has to play a bit more carefully in the Kc7
line than in the Ka6 line.

2. Kc7 Kd4 (2...a5!? is another try with the idea 3. Kd7 Kd4 4. Ke6? (4.
Kd6! +-) 4...Kxe4 5. Kf6 Kf4 6. Kg7 Kf3 7. Kxh7 e4 8. Kg6 e3 9. h7 e2
10. Bxe2+ Kxe2 11. h8Q f1Q could be a draw) 4. Ke6 3. Kd6 3...Kxe4 4.
Kc5 Ke3! 5. Kd5! (5. Kc4? Kd2! 6. Kd5 Kc3 7. Kxe5 Kb2 8. Kd4 Kxa3 9. Kc3
Ka2 10. Bd3 a5 11. Kc2 Ka3 =) 5...e4 6. Ke5 Kd2 (6...Kf3 7. Kd4 +-) 7.
Kxe4 Kc3 8. Ke3 Kb2 9. Kxf2 Kxa3 10. Bd3 Kb2 11. Bxh7 a3 12. Bg8 +-

In the 1. Ka6 line the black Kd2 manouvre is not possible, so White has
it a bit easier.

Claus-Juergen


       
Date: 24 Apr 2005 23:01:56
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Claus-Jürgen Heigl wrote :
> In the 1. Ka6 line the black Kd2 manouvre is not possible, so White has it
> a bit easier.

As usually I have to agree with you.

In the 2 Ka6 variation just after the black King takes e4, the white King
can go to c4.
In the 2.Kc7 variation just after the black King takes e4, the white King
can only go to c5.

as the aim of the white King is e2 it is easier for him to reach that
square.

JMR



--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)




      
Date: 24 Apr 2005 16:42:51
From: Oliver Maas
Subject: Re: Is this endgame winning ?
Hi

true, my 3.Kc6? was wrong. 3.Kd6! Kc3 4.Kxe5 +- or 3... Kxe4 4.Kc5 +-

Oliver



"Tantale" <[email protected] > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Oliver Maas wrote :
> > 1.Bf1+ Kc5 2.Kc7?! Kd4 --> 3.Kc6 <-- and now after 3... Kc3 comes 4.Kxa4
> > +-
>
> I think that on --> 3 Kd6 <-- after 3... Kc3 4 Kxe5 wins for white
>
> greetings
>
> --
> http://www.jmrw.com/
> J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
> est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.
>
> Pascal (Pensées)
>
>