Main
Date: 13 May 2005 01:56:30
From: Philip Feeley
Subject: Opening trap?
I played this game recently with a friend and wondered if
it's an old opening trap. He's not very good, so I suspect
it's just a series of blunders. But if anyone knows if this
has someone's name on it, I'd like to know.

Two knights defence.

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nc6
4. O-O Nxe4
5. Re1 Ne6
6. Nxe5 Nxc4
7. Nxc6+

I wasn't sure about 4. O-O, but chessgames.com gives over
150 games with this move, so I guess it's okay. When he
took the pawn and I played Re1 instead of d3, I expected
maybe d5, but instead got Nd6, an obviously bad move. So
I decided to see if he would fall for the trap and he did.

I don't have any chess books, so I can't consult something
like "1000 Famous Blunders" or something by Fine. I just
thought that this sequence of moves would be known.

Thanks,
Phil




 
Date: 17 May 2005 16:32:00
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
Funny thing is that I have found two games in my database that follow up to
6Nxe5. One from 1995 Duran-Fukcik where black played Be7, declining the
trap and won! This was an Junior Olympiad game so probably not two
patzers.
[Event "Plzen opJ"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Duran, T."]
[Black "Fuksik, J."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C55"]
[PlyCount "96"]
[EventDate "1995.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bb3
Nxe5
8. Rxe5 O-O 9. Nc3 Bf6 10. Re1 Nf5 11. Nd5 c6 12. Nxf6+ Qxf6 13. c3 d5 14.
d4
Nh4 15. Qh5 Ng6 16. Bc2 h6 17. Re3 Nf4 18. Qd1 Qh4 19. Rf3 Ng6 20. Rg3 Re8
21.
Be3 Nf4 22. Rf3 Nh5 23. Qd3 Re4 24. g3 Qe7 25. Qd2 Bg4 26. Bxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rf4
Nxf4 28. Bxf4 Bh3 29. f3 Qxf3 30. Qf2 Qd3 31. Re1 Bf5 32. Re3 Qb1+ 33. Re1
Qd3
34. Re3 Qd1+ 35. Re1 Qg4 36. Bd6 Be4 37. Qf4 Qh3 38. Qf2 Rd8 39. Bc5 b6
40. Ba3
Re8 41. Rf1 Qh5 42. Re1 Re6 43. b3 Rf6 44. Qe2 Rf3 45. Bb2 Qh3 46. Rd1 h5
47.
Rd2 h4 48. gxh4 Rf4 0-1





  
Date: 18 May 2005 00:08:58
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
In article
<[email protected] >,
"bellatori" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Funny thing is that I have found two games in my database that follow up to
> 6Nxe5. One from 1995 Duran-Fukcik where black played Be7, declining the
> trap and won! This was an Junior Olympiad game so probably not two
> patzers.

To me this is a clear-cut reason why you'd avoid this line as white.
Black rejects the obviously poisoned bishop, and emerges out of the
opening no worse than even.

Although I'm not sure (nor am I strong enough to really judge) 11.Nd5 is
very good. I understand the desire for the bishop pair, but a developing
move like 11.d3 makes more sense to me; as the game progresses, white is
never really able to make anything of the bishop pair, and all black's
pieces flow to the kingside rather easily.


   
Date: 18 May 2005 11:56:24
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
> Although I'm not sure (nor am I strong enough to really judge) 11.Nd5 is
> very good. I understand the desire for the bishop pair, but a developing
> move like 11.d3 makes more sense to me; as the game progresses, white is
> never really able to make anything of the bishop pair, and all black's
> pieces flow to the kingside rather easily.

Why ask questions so easily answered by machines?


--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.




    
Date: 18 May 2005 22:07:04
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:

>
> Why ask questions so easily answered by machines?

Because when I play, I don't have machines handy to think for me.


  
Date: 17 May 2005 23:31:16
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
En/na bellatori ha escrit:
> Funny thing is that I have found two games in my database that follow up to
> 6Nxe5. One from 1995 Duran-Fukcik where black played Be7, declining the
> trap and won! This was an Junior Olympiad game so probably not two
> patzers.

Duran was rated 2085
Fukcik was rated 2185.

No modern strong players seems being to play 4.0-0

As someone wrote: 4.d4 and 4.Ng5 are the main lines here.

There is a third option 4.d3 played ocasionally by Kasparov, Kramnik,
Ivanchuk, Morozevic, Gelfand, Shirov, ...

AT



   
Date: 18 May 2005 11:55:50
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
> No modern strong players seems being to play 4.0-0
>
> As someone wrote: 4.d4 and 4.Ng5 are the main lines here.

Yeah, castling is so anti-positional!


> There is a third option 4.d3 played ocasionally by Kasparov, Kramnik,
> Ivanchuk, Morozevic, Gelfand, Shirov, ...

Of course, most GMs play 3. Bb5 to begin with.


--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.




 
Date: 13 May 2005 07:01:18
From:
Subject: Re: Opening trap?

Lee Harris wrote:
> OK, first of all I assume one of your black knight moves was Nf6 as
you had
> Nc6 twice, but I must be missing something here? What trap are you
talking
> about? You've both lost one pawn and a minor piece, the black king is
under
> check but it's no big deal to put the bishop in front and then castle
is it?
> Chesslabs analysis (short) even showed the score to be -0.21 which
means
> black is ahead doesn't it?

Perhaps inaccurate notation by the OP is confusing matters here. If I
understand him correctly, the game actually goes 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxc4?? 7.Nxc6+. In that case
Black will be a whole queen down, e.g. 7...Be7 8.Nxd8 Nd6 (8...Kxd8
9.Qe2 and either the Nc4 or Be7 goes) 9.Qe2 Nf4 10.Qe4 etc. Fritz8
rates this about +11.5.
Nunn's Chess Openings does not think much of 4.0-0, giving 4...Nxe4
5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 as the main line leading to equality. After the
game's 5.Re1?!, it looks like 5...d5 would leave Black a bit better.
This is the kind of line modern opening manuals are unlikely to
mention. You might find something on it in an old edition of Bilguer's
Handbuch or some such.



  
Date: 13 May 2005 14:48:28
From: Philip Feeley
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
Thanks for all your comments. You're right, blacks 3rd move
was Nf6. I typed it wrong. I wasn't playing for a trap, but
since this was a friendly game, I decided to try it out and
see what would happen. I can see the similarity to the Petroff.

Phil


 
Date: 13 May 2005 13:13:53
From: Lee Harris
Subject: Re: Opening trap?

"Philip Feeley" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I played this game recently with a friend and wondered if
> it's an old opening trap. He's not very good, so I suspect
> it's just a series of blunders. But if anyone knows if this
> has someone's name on it, I'd like to know.
>
> Two knights defence.
>
> 1. e4 e5
> 2. Nf3 Nc6
> 3. Bc4 Nc6
> 4. O-O Nxe4
> 5. Re1 Ne6
> 6. Nxe5 Nxc4
> 7. Nxc6+
>
> I wasn't sure about 4. O-O, but chessgames.com gives over
> 150 games with this move, so I guess it's okay. When he
> took the pawn and I played Re1 instead of d3, I expected
> maybe d5, but instead got Nd6, an obviously bad move. So
> I decided to see if he would fall for the trap and he did.
>
> I don't have any chess books, so I can't consult something
> like "1000 Famous Blunders" or something by Fine. I just
> thought that this sequence of moves would be known.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil

OK, first of all I assume one of your black knight moves was Nf6 as you had
Nc6 twice, but I must be missing something here? What trap are you talking
about? You've both lost one pawn and a minor piece, the black king is under
check but it's no big deal to put the bishop in front and then castle is it?
Chesslabs analysis (short) even showed the score to be -0.21 which means
black is ahead doesn't it?




  
Date: 13 May 2005 13:52:57
From: Stephan Bird
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
In article <<[email protected] >,> Lee Harris
([email protected]) says...
>
> "Philip Feeley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I played this game recently with a friend and wondered if
> > it's an old opening trap. He's not very good, so I suspect
> > it's just a series of blunders. But if anyone knows if this
> > has someone's name on it, I'd like to know.
> >
> > Two knights defence.
> >
> > 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Ne6 6. Nxe5 Nxc4 7. Nxc6+!

(should be either 2. ... Nf6 or 3. ... Nf6, and presumably 5. ...
Nd6)

> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Phil
>
> OK, first of all I assume one of your black knight moves was Nf6 as you had
> Nc6 twice, but I must be missing something here? What trap are you talking
> about? You've both lost one pawn and a minor piece, the black king is under
> check but it's no big deal to put the bishop in front and then castle is it?
> Chesslabs analysis (short) even showed the score to be -0.21 which means
> black is ahead doesn't it?

Something's amiss.. After 7. Nxc6+ Be7 8. Nxd8 seems fairly
terminal to me.

Stephan
--
Stephan Bird MChem(Hons) AMRSC
Currently in Caernarfon, Wales


  
Date: 13 May 2005 13:12:48
From: Luigi Caselli
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
"Lee Harris" <[email protected] > ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]
>
> "Philip Feeley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I played this game recently with a friend and wondered if
> > it's an old opening trap. He's not very good, so I suspect
> > it's just a series of blunders. But if anyone knows if this
> > has someone's name on it, I'd like to know.
> >
> > Two knights defence.
> >
> > 1. e4 e5
> > 2. Nf3 Nc6
> > 3. Bc4 Nc6
> > 4. O-O Nxe4
> > 5. Re1 Ne6
> > 6. Nxe5 Nxc4
> > 7. Nxc6+
> >
> > I wasn't sure about 4. O-O, but chessgames.com gives over
> > 150 games with this move, so I guess it's okay. When he
> > took the pawn and I played Re1 instead of d3, I expected
> > maybe d5, but instead got Nd6, an obviously bad move. So
> > I decided to see if he would fall for the trap and he did.
> >
> > I don't have any chess books, so I can't consult something
> > like "1000 Famous Blunders" or something by Fine. I just
> > thought that this sequence of moves would be known.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Phil
>
> OK, first of all I assume one of your black knight moves was Nf6 as you
had
> Nc6 twice, but I must be missing something here? What trap are you talking
> about? You've both lost one pawn and a minor piece, the black king is
under
> check but it's no big deal to put the bishop in front and then castle is
it?
> Chesslabs analysis (short) even showed the score to be -0.21 which means
> black is ahead doesn't it?

Strange, because black lose the Queen in d8, so I think you have a wrong
position...

Luigi Caselli




 
Date: 13 May 2005 04:00:40
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Opening trap?
In article <[email protected] >,
Philip Feeley <[email protected] > wrote:


> 1. e4 e5
> 2. Nf3 Nc6
> 3. Bc4 Nc6
> 4. O-O Nxe4
> 5. Re1 Ne6
> 6. Nxe5 Nxc4
> 7. Nxc6+
>
> I wasn't sure about 4. O-O, but chessgames.com gives over
> 150 games with this move, so I guess it's okay. When he
> took the pawn and I played Re1 instead of d3, I expected
> maybe d5, but instead got Nd6, an obviously bad move. So
> I decided to see if he would fall for the trap and he did.

The two main lines at move four are 4.d4 and 4.Ng5.

Your move order allows - I believe - black to reach slightly more
favorable versions of some of the positions reached in the 4.d4 lines.

5.... Nd6 is an obvious blunder. It's great that it worked for you but
you shouldn't play moves which you only expect to work if your opponent
screws up. This blunder is actually very similar to a well-known trap in
the petroff (1e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Nxe4 4.Re1 Nf6?? 5.Nc6+) although I
haven't seen it before in this exact position.

But playing for traps is a bad habit that will come back to haunt you
in the long run. Be very careful.

-Ron