Main
Date: 02 Jun 2007 17:39:50
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
It's a question of the length of the dash in the castling notations.

My Windows XP Pro SP2 wants 0-0 and 0-0-0 NOT longer, double, dashes.

DSH






 
Date: 05 Jun 2007 15:07:33
From:
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
On Jun 5, 2:23 pm, JohnnyT <[email protected] > wrote:
> And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.
>
> Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.

The programs do work, since they follow the golden rule of "garbage
in, garbage out".

jm



  
Date: 06 Jun 2007 14:12:47
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 5, 2:23 pm, JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>> And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.
>>
>> Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.
>
> The programs do work, since they follow the golden rule of "garbage
> in, garbage out".
>
> jm
>


Doesn't look like garbage to the user, it looks correct. It also works
in other programs.

This sort of GIGO attitude, does not really answer the user's need for
it to just work. Like they expect it to work.

It does mean that the parser needs to be ster than the input. There
are several ways of doing this. Simple Parsing may not be the best way.
But the real result should be, looks like PGN, Chessgame Out. Doing
so, will make your product more acceptable to the user base that has
absolutely no desire to decipher something that looks like a PGN, but
would just appreciate it if his program worked.

GIGO is a cop out.


   
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:14:49
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
JohnnyT <[email protected] > wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Jun 5, 2:23 pm, JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.
>>>
>>> Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.
>>
>> The programs do work, since they follow the golden rule of "garbage
>> in, garbage out".
>
> Doesn't look like garbage to the user, it looks correct. It also
> works in other programs.

I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible to
do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
web page is failing to do something that is trivial.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Mouldy Simple Atlas (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a map of the world but it has no
moving parts and it's starting to
grow mushrooms!


    
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:37:38
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
David Richerby wrote:
>
> I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible to
> do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
> something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
> web page is failing to do something that is trivial.


And I already explained that a user doesn't give a flip. What they
expect is that the process is to work.

Programs that work, even in the face of "error", especially if that
error is not visible, get much more acceptance in the ketplace. Even
if they are not free.

Those that cop out by saying GIGO, don't.

If a user is being told that they are *wrong*, then it is probably the
programmer's fault.

I am pretty sure you don't need to explain it again. I got it the first
time. But you didn't.


     
Date: 07 Jun 2007 21:29:23
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
JohnnyT <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible
>> to do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
>> something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
>> web page is failing to do something that is trivial.
>
> And I already explained that a user doesn't give a flip. What they
> expect is that the process is to work.

Well, if the user is expecting the impossible, don't expect me to
comfort him when he's disappointed. To make this work, either Windows
needs to be rewritten to pass character-set information with
cut-and-pasted text or the web page needs to be rewritten not to use
non-ASCII characters in what looks like PGN.

This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Revolting Beer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ refreshing lager but it'll turn your
stomach!


      
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:49:57
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
David Richerby wrote:
> JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Richerby wrote:
>>> I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible
>>> to do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
>>> something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
>>> web page is failing to do something that is trivial.
>> And I already explained that a user doesn't give a flip. What they
>> expect is that the process is to work.
>
> Well, if the user is expecting the impossible, don't expect me to
> comfort him when he's disappointed. To make this work, either Windows
> needs to be rewritten to pass character-set information with
> cut-and-pasted text or the web page needs to be rewritten not to use
> non-ASCII characters in what looks like PGN.
>
> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>
>
> Dave.
>


I will give you why it is your fault in two different ways. First it is
simply not impossible. Fritz simply consumes the game without error or
fault. This is not impossible.

Secondly, the user has absolutely no reasonable expectation for it not
to work. The programmer is putting requirements that are not visible
nor even reasonable on the user.

This is simply a GIGO copout. An attempt to use a reason (PGN spec), as
an excuse (It is impossible). My kids do this all the time. It is
almost always faulty reasoning.

Simply this is the kind of thinking that took hold of the computer
industry in the mid 80's, and large progress has been made, that the
amount of work that is required, so that users needs are met, even if it
requires breaking a spec, is worthwhile and improves the lives of
everyone, except maybe those that like blaming the user.


       
Date: 08 Jun 2007 10:20:28
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
JohnnyT <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>
> I will give you why it is your fault in two different ways.

Er, no. It is in no way my fault that a program that I did not write
running under an operating system had no part in writing cannot read
data that I did not produce that does not conform to a spec I had no
part in writing.

It seems to me that you either haven't read what I've written or
haven't understood it. Since I can't think of any other way of
phrasing it, I give up.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Swiss Lead Apple (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ tasty fruit that weighs a ton but it's
made in Switzerland!


        
Date: 08 Jun 2007 17:26:55
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations



David Richerby wrote:

>Er, no. It is in no way my fault that a program that I did not write
>running under an operating system had no part in writing cannot read
>data that I did not produce that does not conform to a spec I had no
>part in writing.
>
>It seems to me that you either haven't read what I've written or
>haven't understood it. Since I can't think of any other way of
>phrasing it, I give up.

Perhaps I can help you by explaining how your words are read
by others.

Example #1:



         
Date: 08 Jun 2007 18:54:02
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:26:55 +0000, Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote:

>
>
>
>David Richerby wrote:
>
>>Er, no. It is in no way my fault that a program that I did not write
>>running under an operating system had no part in writing cannot read
>>data that I did not produce that does not conform to a spec I had no
>>part in writing.
>>
>>It seems to me that you either haven't read what I've written or
>>haven't understood it. Since I can't think of any other way of
>>phrasing it, I give up.
>
>Perhaps I can help you by explaining how your words are read
>by others.
>
>Example #1:
>
>


          
Date: 15 Jun 2007 01:04:32
From: marika
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations

Tony M wrote in message ... >
>I kind of get the gist of what David is trying to say here. One of
>the more difficult things about programming is allocating one's
>resources. A programmer only has a certain amount of time to work on
>a program, and must decide whether or not to use that time to fix
>bugs, or to expand an existing feature, or to add a new feature.
>
>Every programmer wants to make a user-friendly program, but one can
>only go so far in anticipating and handling unexpected input. In this
>particular case, it's reasonable to be expected to handle an ASCII 150
>as a dash. If Chessbase can do it, anyone can. After all, it looks
>exactly like a regular dash.
>
>Most chess interfaces that handle PGN already go above and beyond the
>PGN standard; for example, most of them can recognize zeros or the
>letter O for castling moves, and can handle castling moves with or
>without dashes. But one has to decide, should I use time to make my
>program handle, for example, an underscore as a dash? What other
>dash-like characters should I handle? It's not always easy to make
>those sorts of decisions.
>
>One other factor to consider is that the more decisions that a program
>handles, the slower and more bloated it becomes. If a programmer
>makes his PGN parser handle all sorts of arcane exceptions, but makes
>his parser run twice as slow as his competitor's parser, it might not
>be worth it to add that complexity. Plus, the more complex code
>becomes, the more prone a programmer is to make errors. One of the
>main reasons why Windows is bloated and slow is because Microsoft is
>very big on user friendliness, and they decided to sacrifice a bit of
>speed and size to achieve that goal. There's always some sort of
>compromise when it comes to programming.
>

PS webmail sucks
i'm using it right now and hate it
you don't get copies in your sent file
you can't open attachments (i'm always getting pictures)
and no formatting

mk5000

"I'ev got fire equalling 3 men"--tik manoukian




          
Date: 08 Jun 2007 20:11:41
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Thanks!

That's very thoughtful and enlightening.

DSH

"Tony M" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> I kind of get the gist of what David is trying to say here. One of
> the more difficult things about programming is allocating one's
> resources. A programmer only has a certain amount of time to work on
> a program, and must decide whether or not to use that time to fix
> bugs, or to expand an existing feature, or to add a new feature.
>
> Every programmer wants to make a user-friendly program, but one can
> only go so far in anticipating and handling unexpected input. In this
> particular case, it's reasonable to be expected to handle an ASCII 150
> as a dash. If Chessbase can do it, anyone can. After all, it looks
> exactly like a regular dash.
>
> Most chess interfaces that handle PGN already go above and beyond the
> PGN standard; for example, most of them can recognize zeros or the
> letter O for castling moves, and can handle castling moves with or
> without dashes. But one has to decide, should I use time to make my
> program handle, for example, an underscore as a dash? What other
> dash-like characters should I handle? It's not always easy to make
> those sorts of decisions.
>
> One other factor to consider is that the more decisions that a program
> handles, the slower and more bloated it becomes. If a programmer
> makes his PGN parser handle all sorts of arcane exceptions, but makes
> his parser run twice as slow as his competitor's parser, it might not
> be worth it to add that complexity. Plus, the more complex code
> becomes, the more prone a programmer is to make errors. One of the
> main reasons why Windows is bloated and slow is because Microsoft is
> very big on user friendliness, and they decided to sacrifice a bit of
> speed and size to achieve that goal. There's always some sort of
> compromise when it comes to programming.
>
> Tony




        
Date: 08 Jun 2007 07:39:27
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
David Richerby wrote:
> JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Richerby wrote:
>>> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>> I will give you why it is your fault in two different ways.
>
> Er, no. It is in no way my fault that a program that I did not write
> running under an operating system had no part in writing cannot read
> data that I did not produce that does not conform to a spec I had no
> part in writing

> It seems to me that you either haven't read what I've written or
> haven't understood it. Since I can't think of any other way of
> phrasing it, I give up.

I simply misunderstood the use of me in this phrase...

"Well, if the user is expecting the impossible, don't expect me to
comfort him when he's disappointed."

Just change "your", "to the program's". It is the same thing.

And ultimately, you're right. I don't understand it. Never have.
Programs should work to fix problems, not be constrained by them.
Especially problems that don't look like they exist, or heck can be
fixed by a st user. That is what a computer should do.


        
Date: 08 Jun 2007 12:24:02
From: David Cox
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:ihg*[email protected]
> JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Richerby wrote:
>>> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>>
>> I will give you why it is your fault in two different ways.
>
> Er, no. It is in no way my fault that a program that I did not write
> running under an operating system had no part in writing cannot read
> data that I did not produce that does not conform to a spec I had no
> part in writing.
>
> It seems to me that you either haven't read what I've written or
> haven't understood it. Since I can't think of any other way of
> phrasing it, I give up.
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Swiss Lead Apple (TM): it's like a
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ tasty fruit that weighs a ton but
> it's
> made in Switzerland!

The same could be said about the commercial app I wrote. It was not the
users fault either, but they wanted something they could use. In my case
they were willing to pay $1000 dollars each for me to solve it for them.
Solving seemingly impossible problems is what chess programming is all
about.




       
Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:17:50
From: David Cox
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
The programmer thinks so that the user does not have to.

"JohnnyT" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> David Richerby wrote:
>> JohnnyT <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> David Richerby wrote:
>>>> I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible
>>>> to do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
>>>> something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
>>>> web page is failing to do something that is trivial.
>>> And I already explained that a user doesn't give a flip. What they
>>> expect is that the process is to work.
>>
>> Well, if the user is expecting the impossible, don't expect me to
>> comfort him when he's disappointed. To make this work, either Windows
>> needs to be rewritten to pass character-set information with
>> cut-and-pasted text or the web page needs to be rewritten not to use
>> non-ASCII characters in what looks like PGN.
>>
>> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>>
>>
>> Dave.
>>
>
>
> I will give you why it is your fault in two different ways. First it is
> simply not impossible. Fritz simply consumes the game without error or
> fault. This is not impossible.
>
> Secondly, the user has absolutely no reasonable expectation for it not to
> work. The programmer is putting requirements that are not visible nor
> even reasonable on the user.
>
> This is simply a GIGO copout. An attempt to use a reason (PGN spec), as
> an excuse (It is impossible). My kids do this all the time. It is almost
> always faulty reasoning.
>
> Simply this is the kind of thinking that took hold of the computer
> industry in the mid 80's, and large progress has been made, that the
> amount of work that is required, so that users needs are met, even if it
> requires breaking a spec, is worthwhile and improves the lives of
> everyone, except maybe those that like blaming the user.




      
Date: 07 Jun 2007 21:56:30
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Good Points!

Eminently Reasonable.

Could you please explain all that to the author of the web page?

Here he is:

<http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/ >

DSH
-----------------------------------------------------

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:RFB*[email protected]

> Well, if the user is expecting the impossible, don't expect me to
> comfort him when he's disappointed. To make this work, either Windows
> needs to be rewritten to pass character-set information with
> cut-and-pasted text or the web page needs to be rewritten not to use
> non-ASCII characters in what looks like PGN.
>
> This is not Winboard's fault in two different ways.
>
> Dave.




    
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:00:23
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Fair Enough.

DSH
----------------------------

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:Lvd*[email protected]

>> Doesn't look like garbage to the user, it looks correct. It also
>> works in other programs.
>
> I've already explained why what you're asking for is not possible to
> do properly. The problem is not that winboard is failing to do
> something that is technically impossible but that the author of the
> web page is failing to do something that is trivial.




   
Date: 06 Jun 2007 23:41:26
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Bingo!

DSH

"JohnnyT" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> ...GIGO is a cop out....




 
Date: 05 Jun 2007 11:46:23
From:
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
> Strangely, J. V. Merlino, another poster here, said, as I recall, that he
> had no trouble with it and the moves processed cleanly on his system. I
> wonder why?

I suspect because the text you posted (which was from a different game
than the one in the link you posted) did not have emdashes in it.

jm



  
Date: 06 Jun 2007 00:27:14
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Nope.

Wrong.

Try the first game in this link....

Alexei Shirov - Garry Kasparov (01)
Tilburg Fontys 1997

Here it is again:

<http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html >

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.f3 Be7
9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.000 b5 12.h4 Nb6 13.Kb1 b4 14.Bxb6 Qxb6 15.Nd5 Bxd5
16.exd5 a5 17.Qd3 00 18.Nd2 a4 19.Ne4 Rfc8 20.Nxf6+ Bxf6 21.Qe4 Qc5 22.Bd3
Kf8 23.g5 hxg5 24.hxg5 Bxg5 25.Qf5 Bh6 26.Rh4 Ke7 27.Rc4 Qxc4 28.Bxc4 Rxc4
29.Qd3 Rac8 30.Re1 Bf4 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.fxe4 g5 33.a3 bxa3 34.Qa6 Rd8 35.Qb6
g4 36.c4 g3 37.c5 g2 38.cxd6+ Rxd6 39.Qc7+ Kf6 40.Qxd6+ Kg7 01

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]


>> Strangely, J. V. Merlino, another poster here, said, as I recall, that he
>> had no trouble with it and the moves processed cleanly on his system. I
>> wonder why?
>
> I suspect because the text you posted (which was from a different game
> than the one in the link you posted) did not have emdashes in it.
>
> jm




   
Date: 06 Jun 2007 10:42:34
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Strangely, J. V. Merlino, another poster here, said, as I recall,
>>> that he had no trouble with it and the moves processed cleanly on
>>> his system. I wonder why?
>>
>> I suspect because the text you posted (which was from a different game
>> than the one in the link you posted) did not have emdashes in it.
>
> Nope.
>
> Wrong.

Nope, right. The text you posted is the article at

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.chess.analysis/msg/bf14d672a3a9221d

That contains only ASCII characters so it works fine with winboard.
The version of that game on the web page you copied it from does not
use only ASCII so does not work with winboard.


> Here it is again:
>
> <http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>
>
> 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6
> 8.f3 Be7 9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.000 b5

And this version does include the non-ASCII characters so doesn't
work.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Incredible Ghost (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a haunting spirit but it'll
blow your mind and it's perfect for
your grandparents!


    
Date: 06 Jun 2007 17:50:43
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:UaA*[email protected]

> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Nope.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Nope, right.

Nope.

Dead Wrong.

The operative question is whether the games at the following URL clear or
hang in Winboard 4.2.7 on J. V. Merlino's machine. Here is the URL for the
third time to him:

<http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html >

Click on _Chess_ below -- there are MANY more games with the abortive
castling
notation.

Then continue to click on _Older Posts_.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Fortem Posce Animum




     
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:46:07
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
>"David Richerby" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> J.V. Merlino wrote:
>>>> I suspect because the text you posted (which was from a different game
>>>> than the one in the link you posted) did not have emdashes in it.
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>> Nope, right.
>
> Nope.
>
> Dead Wrong.
>
> The operative question is whether the games at the following URL
> clear or hang in Winboard 4.2.7 on J. V. Merlino's machine. Here is
> the URL for the third time to him:
>
> <http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>

We seem to be talking at crossed purposes. The text *you* posted was
at the start of this thread and consisted of a game score entirely in
ASCII. That works perfectly on (I hazard to say) everybody's copy of
Winboard. The *link* you posted (just above and further back in the
thread) points to text that somebody else posted on his blog. That
contains non-ASCII characters so doesn't work on (I hazard to say)
anybody's copy of Winboard.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Poetic Sadistic Tool (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a handy household tool but it wants
to hurt you and it's in verse!


     
Date: 06 Jun 2007 17:51:56
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:UaA*[email protected]

> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Nope.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Nope, right.

Nope.

Dead Wrong.

The operative question is whether the games at the following URL clear or
hang in Winboard 4.2.7 on J. V. Merlino's machine. Here is the URL for the
third time to him:

<http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html >

Click on _Chess_ below -- there are MANY more games with the abortive
castling notation.

Then continue to click on _Older Posts_.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Fortem Posce Animum




   
Date: 06 Jun 2007 00:53:55
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 00:27:14 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>Nope.
>
>Wrong.
>
>Try the first game in this link....
>
>Alexei Shirov - Garry Kasparov (01)
>Tilburg Fontys 1997
>
>Here it is again:
>
><http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>
>
>1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.f3 Be7
>9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.000 b5 12.h4 Nb6 13.Kb1 b4 14.Bxb6 Qxb6 15.Nd5 Bxd5
>16.exd5 a5 17.Qd3 00 18.Nd2 a4 19.Ne4 Rfc8 20.Nxf6+ Bxf6 21.Qe4 Qc5 22.Bd3
>Kf8 23.g5 hxg5 24.hxg5 Bxg5 25.Qf5 Bh6 26.Rh4 Ke7 27.Rc4 Qxc4 28.Bxc4 Rxc4
>29.Qd3 Rac8 30.Re1 Bf4 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.fxe4 g5 33.a3 bxa3 34.Qa6 Rd8 35.Qb6
>g4 36.c4 g3 37.c5 g2 38.cxd6+ Rxd6 39.Qc7+ Kf6 40.Qxd6+ Kg7 01
>
>DSH
>

Looking at the page source, I see that the castling moves are not
using standard dash characters, but rather the HTML code –.

When I copy and paste the game score from your message, the dashes are
still not standard, but are rather ASCII character 150. Copying from
the web page and pasting to a text editor still produces the
non-standard ASCII dash character 150. Winboard, Arena, and Shredder
all choked on the game score. Chessbase Light seems to accept it ok.

I guess the webmaster that created the blog needs to be a little more
careful when they post game scores, to make sure they are clean and
PGN compliant.

Tony


    
Date: 06 Jun 2007 02:02:29
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Bingo!

I agree 100%.

ASCII character 150 is the em dash?

What is this weird code _–_?

DSH

"Tony M" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 00:27:14 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Nope.
>>
>>Wrong.
>>
>>Try the first game in this link....
>>
>>Alexei Shirov - Garry Kasparov (0-1)
>>Tilburg Fontys 1997
>>
>>Here it is again:
>>
>><http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>
>>
>>1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.f3 Be7
>>9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.0-0-0 b5 12.h4 Nb6 13.Kb1 b4 14.Bxb6 Qxb6 15.Nd5
>>Bxd5 16.exd5 a5 17.Qd3 0-0 18.Nd2 a4 19.Ne4 Rfc8 20.Nxf6+ Bxf6
>>21.Qe4 Qc5 22.Bd3 Kf8 23.g5 hxg5 24.hxg5 Bxg5 25.Qf5 Bh6 26.Rh4 Ke7
>>27.Rc4 Qxc4 28.Bxc4 Rxc4 29.Qd3 Rac8 30.Re1 Bf4 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.fxe4 g5
>>33.a3 bxa3 34.Qa6 Rd8 35.Qb6 g4 36.c4 g3 37.c5 g2 38.cxd6+ Rxd6
>>39.Qc7+ Kf6 40.Qxd6+ Kg7 0-1
>>
>>DSH
>>
>
> Looking at the page source, I see that the castling moves are not
> using standard dash characters, but rather the HTML code –.
>
> When I copy and paste the game score from your message, the dashes are
> still not standard, but are rather ASCII character 150. Copying from
> the web page and pasting to a text editor still produces the
> non-standard ASCII dash character 150. Winboard, Arena, and Shredder
> all choked on the game score. Chessbase Light seems to accept it ok.
>
> I guess the webmaster that created the blog needs to be a little more
> careful when they post game scores, to make sure they are clean and
> PGN compliant.
>
> Tony




     
Date: 06 Jun 2007 09:58:55
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> What is this weird code _–_?

It's some kind of dash or minus sign. Some kind of character that
prints a horizontal line at about half the height of a roman letter
with no ascenders or descenders, anyway.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Carnivorous Technicolor Soap (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a personal hygiene product
but it's in realistic colour and it
eats flesh!


 
Date: 04 Jun 2007 17:12:54
From:
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
On Jun 4, 12:22 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected] > wrote:
> SINGLE hypens are being converted into dashes, which are double the length
> of the hyphen

That sounds like some kind of auto-formatting feature in Microsoft
Word or another word processing program. Just use Notepad, with a
typical font like Arial or Times New Roman, and there should be no
conversion problems.

jm



  
Date: 05 Jun 2007 01:25:03
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
I've disabled that auto-formatting feature in Word.

The error occurs when pasting to Notepad as well.

DSH

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> On Jun 4, 12:22 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> SINGLE hyphens are being converted into dashes, which are double the
>> length of the hyphen
>
> That sounds like some kind of auto-formatting feature in Microsoft
> Word or another word processing program. Just use Notepad, with a
> typical font like Arial or Times New Roman, and there should be no
> conversion problems.
>
> jm




   
Date: 05 Jun 2007 09:55:23
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> SINGLE hyphens are being converted into dashes, which are double the
>>> length of the hyphen
>>
>> That sounds like some kind of auto-formatting feature in Microsoft
>> Word or another word processing program.
>
> I've disabled that auto-formatting feature in Word.
>
> The error occurs when pasting to Notepad as well.

OK. I've seen some web pages that use &emdash; or somesuch instead of
an ordinary ASCII hyphen for castling notation. This breaks almost
any program that expects ASCII input but some programs automatically
convert to hyphens. I suspect this is why the version you posted to
this newsgroup worked fine for everyone but the original version you
had didn't work for you.

Could you post the URL where you found the problematic game?


Dave.

--
David Richerby Transparent Hilarious Cheese (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a brick of cheese but it's
a bundle of laughs and you can see
right through it!


    
Date: 05 Jun 2007 10:55:16
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:3M*[email protected]

> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:

>> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>> SINGLE hyphens are being converted into dashes, which are double the
>>>> length of the hyphen
>>>
>>> That sounds like some kind of auto-formatting feature in Microsoft
>>> Word or another word processing program.
>>
>> I've disabled that auto-formatting feature in Word.
>>
>> The error occurs when pasting to Notepad as well.
>
> OK. I've seen some web pages that use &emdash; or somesuch instead of
> an ordinary ASCII hyphen for castling notation. This breaks almost
> any program that expects ASCII input but some programs automatically
> convert to hyphens. I suspect this is why the version you posted to
> this newsgroup worked fine for everyone but the original version you
> had didn't work for you.
>
> Could you post the URL where you found the problematic game?

Certainly.

<http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html >

DSH




     
Date: 05 Jun 2007 11:54:22
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> OK. I've seen some web pages that use &emdash; or somesuch instead of
>> an ordinary ASCII hyphen for castling notation.
>>
>> Could you post the URL where you found the problematic game?
>
> Certainly.
>
> <http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>

Looks like my guess was correct: White's queenside castling is written
``11.0–0–0'' in the source instead of ``11.O-O-O''.
Winboard can't recognise these characters so discards that move and
tries to use 11... b5 as White's eleventh move, which it can't do,
either so it gives up. (Indeed, there's no way it can be made to
recognise them properly because it doesn't know what character set is
being used when it receives the data from the clipboard. So almost
anything could be some kind of dash, as far as it knows.)

You might consider mailing the blog author and asking him to use
ordinary ASCII hyphens so that people can cut and paste from his pages
into chess programs.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Perforated Artificial Umbrella (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an umbrella that's made of
plastic but it's full of holes!


      
Date: 05 Jun 2007 14:23:55
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
David Richerby wrote:

> Looks like my guess was correct: White's queenside castling is written
> ``11.0–0–0'' in the source instead of ``11.O-O-O''.
> Winboard can't recognise these characters so discards that move and
> tries to use 11... b5 as White's eleventh move, which it can't do,
> either so it gives up. (Indeed, there's no way it can be made to
> recognise them properly because it doesn't know what character set is
> being used when it receives the data from the clipboard. So almost
> anything could be some kind of dash, as far as it knows.)
>
> You might consider mailing the blog author and asking him to use
> ordinary ASCII hyphens so that people can cut and paste from his pages
> into chess programs.


And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.

Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.


       
Date: 06 Jun 2007 10:01:33
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
JohnnyT <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> Looks like my guess was correct: White's queenside castling is
>> written ``11.0–0–0'' in the source instead of
>> ``11.O-O-O''. Winboard can't recognise these characters so
>> discards that move and tries to use 11... b5 as White's eleventh
>> move, which it can't do, either so it gives up. (Indeed, there's
>> no way it can be made to recognise them properly because it doesn't
>> know what character set is being used when it receives the data
>> from the clipboard. So almost anything could be some kind of dash,
>> as far as it knows.)
>
> And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.

You seem to have missed my parenthetical comment explaining that this
cannot be done in a way that is guaranteed to work. About the best
that could be done is to treat any character that could look like a
dash in any character set as being a dash. Perhaps that's better than
nothing but it might be confusing in some circumstances.


> Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.

Coping with more than one character set at a time is extremely
difficult and often impossible.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Car (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ high-performance luxury car but you
can never put it down!


       
Date: 06 Jun 2007 00:16:10
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Right!

Updated how?

DSH

"JohnnyT" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> David Richerby wrote:
>
>> Looks like my guess was correct: White's queenside castling is written
>> ``11.0–0–0'' in the source instead of ``11.O-O-O''.
>> Winboard can't recognise these characters so discards that move and
>> tries to use 11... b5 as White's eleventh move, which it can't do,
>> either so it gives up. (Indeed, there's no way it can be made to
>> recognise them properly because it doesn't know what character set is
>> being used when it receives the data from the clipboard. So almost
>> anything could be some kind of dash, as far as it knows.)
>>
>> You might consider mailing the blog author and asking him to use
>> ordinary ASCII hyphens so that people can cut and paste from his pages
>> into chess programs.
>
>
> And/or winboard can be updated to allow for this special case.
>
> Seriously, the user just wants the programs to work.




      
Date: 05 Jun 2007 17:50:23
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
Brilliant!

Thank you very much.

I will.

What character is he using that is written _–_?

Strangely, J. V. Merlino, another poster here, said, as I recall, that he
had no trouble with it and the moves processed cleanly on his system. I
wonder why?

DSH

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:Unw*[email protected]

> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:

>> David Richerby wrote:

>>> OK. I've seen some web pages that use &emdash; or somesuch instead of
>>> an ordinary ASCII hyphen for castling notation.
>>>
>>> Could you post the URL where you found the problematic game?
>>
>> Certainly.
>>
>> <http://wwwscala.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexei-shirov-garry-kasparov-01.html>
>
> Looks like my guess was correct: White's queenside castling is written
> ``11.0–0–0'' in the source instead of ``11.O-O-O''.
> Winboard can't recognise these characters so discards that move and
> tries to use 11... b5 as White's eleventh move, which it can't do,
> either so it gives up. (Indeed, there's no way it can be made to
> recognise them properly because it doesn't know what character set is
> being used when it receives the data from the clipboard. So almost
> anything could be some kind of dash, as far as it knows.)
>
> You might consider mailing the blog author and asking him to use
> ordinary ASCII hyphens so that people can cut and paste from his pages
> into chess programs.
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Perforated Artificial Umbrella
> (TM):
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an umbrella that's
> made of
> plastic but it's full of holes!




 
Date: 02 Jun 2007 13:29:25
From:
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
On Jun 2, 9:39 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected] > wrote:
> It's a question of the length of the dash in the castling notations.
>
> My Windows XP Pro SP2 wants 0-0 and 0-0-0 NOT longer, double, dashes.
>
> DSH

There were no double-dashes in the game you posted.

And I seriously doubt it has anything to do with your version of
Windows. It's the simple fact that double-dashes are not legal PGN.

jm



  
Date: 04 Jun 2007 20:22:00
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> There were no double-dashes in the game you posted.

Right! I never said there were.

SINGLE hypens are being converted into dashes, which are double the length
of the hyphen

> And I seriously doubt it has anything to do with your version of
> Windows. It's the simple fact that double-dashes are not legal PGN.
>
> jm

Yes, I understand that too -- but I'm getting dashes, double the length of
the hyphen.

DSH




  
Date: 02 Jun 2007 22:03:19
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Winboard 4.2.7 -- Capabilities & Limitations
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> On Jun 2, 9:39 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> It's a question of the length of the dash in the castling notations.
>>
>> My Windows XP Pro SP2 wants 0-0 and 0-0-0 NOT longer, double, dashes.
>>
>> DSH
>
> There were no double-dashes in the game you posted.

I never said there were.

> And I seriously doubt it has anything to do with your version of
> Windows. It's the simple fact that double-dashes are not legal PGN.
>
> jm

I fully understand that.

DSH