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Main
Date: 16 Aug 2006 19:17:23
From: Jon
Subject: Scandanavian line
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In Sam Collins's "An Attacking Repertoire for White" he gives the following
as the main line against the Scandanavian:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4! Bg6
9.h4! Nbd7 ...
However in the side variations he comments:
"Amazingly, 9. ... Bd6 has a 100% score in my database" and proceeds to
present the following from Koenig-Kleinegger, Ruhrgebeit 1998:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4! Bg6
9.h4! Bd6 10.Bf4 Bxe5 11.Bxe5 Nbd7 12.Bxf6 Nxf6 13.h5 Be4 14.0-0 0-0-0
15.Nxe4 Nxe4 16.c3 Qg5
Reaching this position:
2kr3r/pp3ppp/2p1p3/6qP/2BPn1P1/2P5/PP3P2/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 17
Here Collins comments "and now I like 17. Qe2".
Really - what is to like about this position for White? Fritz gives Black a
clear advantage and suggests 17. ... Qf4 followed by g6 to prise open the
kingside.
Looking at the position it seems Black has the following trumps: more
compact pawn structure, easy pawn breaks with g6 or e5, initiative on dark
squares, pressure against g4. White's king is looking somewhat draughty.
I'm not sure how I'd proceed with White. Maybe Rooks on c1/d1, Bb3 and try
for a c4 and d5 push.
Analysing a bit with Fritz the suggestion appears for White to deviate at
move 14 and steer for an ending:
14.f3 Bd5 15.Bxd5 Nxd5 16.Qd2 Nxc3 17.Qxc3 which it assesses as equal.
I'm not totally enamoured with this position either. Black's pawn structure
looks more defendable to me. Is this the best White can hope for against 9.
... Bd6 ?
--
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Date: 20 Aug 2006 06:16:11
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line - I wouldn't start from here!
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Why 7.Ne5 which 'forces' e6 and Black is heading for a good line in the
Caro. White has better options. Adams and Shirov play
7.Bd2 e6 8.Nd5! Qd8 9.Nf6 gf6 (Qf6 is no better) and Black is having a
miserable time. I offer the following from a master norm tournament to
show just how bad.
[Event "EM/MN/093"]
[Site "ICCF Correspondence"]
[Date "2005.10.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Wharrier, Jo (ENG)"]
[Black "Lohmann, Frank (GER)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2294"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[Annotator "Wharrier,Jo"]
[PlyCount "63"]
[EventDate "2005.10.20"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
1. e4 d5 {I used to play the Centre Counter OTB and it produced good
results
against strong players because of its novelty value. In CC this is a very
risky strategy.} 2. exd5 Qxd5 {...and this is not the safest option.} 3.
Nc3
Qa5 4. d4 c6 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ gxf6 ({
No better is} 9... Qxf6 10. Qe2 $14) 10. Bb3 Nd7 11. Nh4 Bg6 12. Qf3 {
Anyone playing CC has to look at a good database BEFORE they reach this
point.
Three games, all won by White should suggest something to Black. Chose
another
opening!} Qb6 $6 $146 13. O-O-O $1 {I imagined that my opponent may have
been
trying to provoke c3 and then O-O-O for White can look a bit risky if
Black
can play a5,4.} Qxd4 (13... O-O-O $142) 14. Qh3 Ne5 15. Nxg6 Nxg6 (15...
fxg6
$4 16. Qxe6+ Be7 17. Rhe1 $18) 16. g3 h5 17. f4 Qc5 18. Bc3 Be7 19. Rhf1
Nf8
20. f5 e5 {Black's pieces are all tied up, the KR is completely out of
play.
Now is the time to switch play to the middle.} (20... exf5 21. Rxf5 $18)
21.
Qg2 a5 {When the position is looking bad, try for counter play.} 22. a3 b5
23.
Rfe1 Ra7 (23... b4 $5 24. Bxe5 $6 (24. Ba4 $1 Nd7 25. Bxc6 O-O $16) 24...
fxe5
25. Rxe5 Qxe5 26. Qxc6+ Nd7 27. Rxd7 Bg5+ 28. Kb1 O-O $17) 24. Bd2 Qb6 25.
Be3
Bc5 26. Bxc5 Qxc5 {White is a pawn down and has allowed the swapping of
material. Black is, however completely lost. His out of play rook means
White
is attacking a piece up.} 27. Rd3 a4 28. Rc3 Qb6 29. Rxc6 Qb8 30. Bd5 Nd7
31.
g4 Rg8 32. Qh3 {and Black resigned. Although material is level Black is
about
to be picked off one piece at a time.} 1-0
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 16:56:38
From: Ken Jones
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> > 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3
>
> I don't think this move is sound anymore.
>
> Black gets way too much in way too many lines.
>
>
Thus spake Zara-doofus!
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 03:56:03
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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> 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3
I don't think this move is sound anymore.
Black gets way too much in way too many lines.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
"appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
and presenter of arguments"
From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
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Jon wrote:
> >> Here Collins comments "and now I like 17. Qe2".
> >
> > I analyzed the position after 17.Qe2. (1) Black can use pawn breaks to
> > eliminate the g- and/or h-pawns. (2) Black can attempt to land forks by
> > putting his knight on d2 or g3. Against a good opponent, those tricks
> > will fail, and a draw seems likely. All 3 games in my database that
> > reached this position ended in a draw.
> My impression though is that this is a position where White is on the
> defensive; probably not the kind of position you should be aiming for out of
> the opening.
Yes, White probably shouldn't aim for this position. Aim for the real
mainline... 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5
7.Bd2 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4. It leads to an dynamic and unclear middlegame.
> I can't find these games. Care to post them?
The 7. Ne5 e6 8. g4 bg6 9 h4 Bd6 is +4, -6, =6 (black is better) is in
Chessbase. I don't see =3 for 17...Qe2 now, I must have typed in the
wrong position.
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 21:44:12
From: Jon
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> My impression though is that this is a position where White is on the
>> defensive; probably not the kind of position you should be aiming for out
>> of
>> the opening.
>
> Yes, White probably shouldn't aim for this position. Aim for the real
> mainline... 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5
> 7.Bd2 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4. It leads to an dynamic and unclear middlegame.
Thanks for the tip. I've got scrap of material in NCO + the databases of
course. Looks like I should abandon Collins's recommendation and take a look
at this.
--
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 00:36:37
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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The main 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4 Bg6 9.h4 Bd6 line you quote is actually discussed
in Wahls Scandinavian book (where Wahls attributes the move to tin
Voigt), where Wahls thinks black is probably equal (his line stops
earlier than the one by Collins, so I guess Collins was trying to
improve over what Wahls wrote).
Jon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>My impression though is that this is a position where White is on the
>>>defensive; probably not the kind of position you should be aiming for out
>>>of
>>>the opening.
>>
>>Yes, White probably shouldn't aim for this position. Aim for the real
>>mainline... 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5
>>7.Bd2 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4. It leads to an dynamic and unclear middlegame.
>
>
> Thanks for the tip. I've got scrap of material in NCO + the databases of
> course. Looks like I should abandon Collins's recommendation and take a look
> at this.
8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6 Qxf6 10.Qe2! seems more critical at the moment as far
as I know and there's plenty of other good variations such as 5.Bd2.
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Jon wrote:
> Reaching this position:
> 2kr3r/pp3ppp/2p1p3/6qP/2BPn1P1/2P5/PP3P2/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 17
>
> Here Collins comments "and now I like 17. Qe2".
I analyzed the position after 17.Qe2. (1) Black can use pawn breaks to
eliminate the g- and/or h-pawns. (2) Black can attempt to land forks by
putting his knight on d2 or g3. Against a good opponent, those tricks
will fail, and a draw seems likely. All 3 games in my database that
reached this position ended in a draw.
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 19:55:07
From: Jon
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jon wrote:
>> Reaching this position:
>> 2kr3r/pp3ppp/2p1p3/6qP/2BPn1P1/2P5/PP3P2/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 17
>>
>> Here Collins comments "and now I like 17. Qe2".
>
> I analyzed the position after 17.Qe2. (1) Black can use pawn breaks to
> eliminate the g- and/or h-pawns. (2) Black can attempt to land forks by
> putting his knight on d2 or g3. Against a good opponent, those tricks
> will fail, and a draw seems likely. All 3 games in my database that
> reached this position ended in a draw.
I can't find these games. Care to post them?
My impression though is that this is a position where White is on the
defensive; probably not the kind of position you should be aiming for out of
the opening.
--
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 02:40:52
From: Ed Seedhouse
Subject: Re: Scandanavian line
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:55:07 GMT, "Jon" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>> Jon wrote:
>>> Reaching this position:
>>> 2kr3r/pp3ppp/2p1p3/6qP/2BPn1P1/2P5/PP3P2/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 17
>>>
>>> Here Collins comments "and now I like 17. Qe2".
I think it is clear that white is worse here, by a fairly significant
amount, because of his absolutely lousy pawn position on the K side.
Fritz 6 gives a valuation of around -0.8 pawns for the white position
and on general ground that seems reasonable. The only question surely
is whether white can hold on or not. If play from here is accurate then
either black will win or it will be drawn.
Ed
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Jon wrote:
> In Sam Collins's "An Attacking Repertoire for White" he gives the following
>
> However in the side variations he comments:
> "Amazingly, 9. ... Bd6 has a 100% score in my database" and proceeds to
> present the following from Koenig-Kleinegger, Ruhrgebeit 1998:
Good observation. According to Chessbase, 9...Bd6 is +4, -6, =6 for
White. Black has won more often. ::Adds line to my repertoire::
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