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Main
Date: 31 Jan 2006 00:34:44
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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[Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
[Date "2006.01.29"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Wells, P."]
[Black "Shirov, A."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A45"]
[WhiteElo "2501"]
[BlackElo "2709"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[EventDate "2006.01.24"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 7. e3 f4
8. exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2 12. d6 Qc2 13. Qe3 1-0
Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
AT
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Date: 06 Feb 2006 14:59:19
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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David Richerby wrote:
> Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David Richerby wrote:
> >> I think we've
> >
> > Who's 'we'? Did everyone already know
> > that in the case of Hilary Thomas?
>
> Maybe not
Certainly not.
> but everyone is now familiar with the idea that
> some names can be used for both men and women.
>
> >> established that some names can be used by both men and
> >> women. Was there any chess anywhere on the horizon?
> >
> > David Richerby seems to have asked for a chess-related example.
>
> No, I asked for some chess. Determining the gender of a chess player
> from their name is no more on-topic here than determining the gender
> of anyone else.
It could help avoid such errors as writing of 'WGM Xu Jun'.
> > GM Xu Jun is a man. GM Xie Jun is a woman.
> > Can these facts be established by looking only at their given names?
My question was rhetorical; the answer is 'no'.
> I've no idea and I don't care.
David Richerby's ignorance and apathy on some subjects
has been noted.
> After all, nobody not familiar with Western culture could
> determine that I am a man from my given name.
I did not earlier use the example of GM Xu Jun and GM Xie Jun
on account of the presumed cultural unfamiliarity of most readers
in rec.games.chess.analysis.
--Nick
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Date: 04 Feb 2006 13:48:45
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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David Richerby wrote:
> I think we've
Who's 'we'? Did everyone already know
that in the case of Hilary Thomas?
> established that some names can be used by both men and
> women. Was there any chess anywhere on the horizon?
David Richerby seems to have asked for a chess-related example.
GM Xu Jun is a man. GM Xie Jun is a woman.
Can these facts be established by looking only
at their given names?
--Nick
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Date: 06 Feb 2006 11:05:32
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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Nick <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> I think we've
>
> Who's 'we'? Did everyone already know that in the case of Hilary
> Thomas?
Maybe not but everyone is now familiar with the idea that some names
can be used for both men and women.
>> established that some names can be used by both men and
>> women. Was there any chess anywhere on the horizon?
>
> David Richerby seems to have asked for a chess-related example.
No, I asked for some chess. Determining the gender of a chess player
from their name is no more on-topic here than determining the gender
of anyone else.
> GM Xu Jun is a man. GM Xie Jun is a woman. Can these facts be
> established by looking only at their given names?
I've no idea and I don't care. After all, nobody not familiar with
Western culture could determine that I am a man from my given name.
Whoop-de-doo.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Microsoft Cheese (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ brick of cheese that's really hard
to use!
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Date: 02 Feb 2006 13:16:22
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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[email protected] wrote:
> Nick wrote:
> > In his originating post in the rec.games.chess.misc thread,
> > 'Keene and ghost-writing', Taylor Kingston refers to Hilary
> > Thomas as 'Ms. Thomas' and 'she'. Taylor Kingston later
> > admitted that he was mistaken.
>
> Yep, happens now and then.
Sometimes Taylor Kingston has not admitted his errors.
> Over here Hilary is generally a woman's name,
> e.g. Hilary Rodham Clinton.
She refers to herself as *Hillary* Rodham Clinton.
> Don't worry, I won't make the same mistake
> with, say, Evelyn Waugh.
Would Taylor Kingston have any confusion about
the given names of, say, Vivien Leigh, an English
actress, and Vivien Thomas, an African American
man whose prospects for a medical career were
severely constrained by American racism?
Here's a Wikipedia article about Vivien Thomas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivien_Thomas
--Nick
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Date: 03 Feb 2006 12:29:44
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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I think we've established that some names can be used by both men and
women. Was there any chess anywhere on the horizon?
Dave.
--
David Richerby Technicolor Boss (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ middle manager but it's in realistic
colour!
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Date: 01 Feb 2006 10:51:34
From:
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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Nick wrote:
> In his originating post in the rec.games.chess.misc thread,
> 'Keene and ghost-writing', Taylor Kingston refers to Hilary
> Thomas as 'Ms. Thomas' and 'she'. Taylor Kingston later
> admitted that he was mistaken.
Yep, happens now and then. Over here Hilary is generally a woman's
name, e.g. Hilary Rodham Clinton. Don't worry, I won't make the same
mistake with, say, Evelyn Waugh.
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Date: 02 Feb 2006 06:27:14
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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> Nick wrote:
>> In his originating post in the rec.games.chess.misc thread,
>> 'Keene and ghost-writing', Taylor Kingston refers to Hilary
>> Thomas as 'Ms. Thomas' and 'she'.
I'm suprised no one told Taylor about her mistake.
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 19:42:42
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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[email protected] wrote:
> Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> > Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
>
> If you are referring to Capa's famous blunder against Saemisch at
> Carslbad 1929, he at least had the excuse of a major distraction.
> The story goes that he had just learned that both his wife *and* his
> mistress had arrived at the tournament. Distracted by this predicament,
> he dropped a piece.
>
> One wonders if Shirov had a similar distraction.
Rumour has it that Shirov was considering whether or not
he should enjoy making Hilary Thomas his mistress. :-)
Then Shirov discovered that Taylor Kingston's not the most
knowledgeable writer about the modern British chess scene.
In his originating post in the rec.games.chess.misc thread,
'Keene and ghost-writing', Taylor Kingston refers to Hilary
Thomas as 'Ms. Thomas' and 'she'. Taylor Kingston later
admitted that he was mistaken.
--Nick
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Date: 01 Feb 2006 12:19:59
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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In article <[email protected] >, Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> [Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
> [Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
> [Date "2006.01.29"]
> [Round "6"]
> [White "Wells, P."]
> [Black "Shirov, A."]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [ECO "A45"]
> [WhiteElo "2501"]
> [BlackElo "2709"]
>
> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 7. e3 f4
> 8. exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2 12. d6 Qc2 13. Qe3 1-0
>
> Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
Interesting game! Apparently this is known as
[Opening "Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)"]
[Variation "Mujannah formation"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 { 6... Bg7! }
7. e3 f4 { 7... d6 or 7... Qf6 }
8. exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2?!
{ not 11... Rg8?! 12. Be2!
( 12. Qh4?! Qb2 13. Qxh7 Qc1+ 14. Nd1 Kf8 15. Nc3 d6 16. Qe4 Nd7
and Black is the exchange up )
12... Rxg2 13. Bh5 Rg7 14. Qh6 Rg8 15. Qxh7 Rf8 16. Rg1 d6 17. Rg8 +-
but 11... d6! and now
either 12. Be2 Qb2 (12... Nd7 13. Qd2) 13. Bh5 Nd7 14. Qxf7+ Kd8
15. O-O Nf6 looks unclear; Black might even be better
or 12. Qd2 ( played by Aleksej Aleksandrov (2535) in 1994 )
12... Rg8 13. g3 a6 14. Bd3 Nd7 15. O-O (15. Bxh7 Ne5)
15... Ne5 16. Be2 Bg4 looks unclear
}
12. d6 Qc2?!
{ or 12... Nc6 13. Bd3 and now
Hodgson (2570) - Van der Wiel (2570) Amsterdam 1994 continued
13... exd6 14. O-O Ne5 15. Qf6 O-O 16. Nd5 Re8 17. Qg5+ Ng6
18. Nf6+ Kf8 19. Qh6+ Ke7 20. Nd5+ Kd8 21. Bxg6 hxg6 22. Nbc3 1-0
and Maes (2245) - Cherniaev (2335) Leuven 1994 continued
13... e6 14. O-O f5 15. Qh6 b6 16. Be2 Qxe2 17. Nxe2 Bb7 18. Qh5+ Kf8
19. Qh6+ Kf7 20. Qh5+ Kf6 21. Nbc3 Rag8 22. f3 Kg7 23. Nf4 Kf8 1-0
}
13. Qe3 1-0
presumably because of
13... e6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. O-O (15. Qe5 Qc1+ 16. Ke2 Qb2+)
15... Nc6 16. Nb5 Kf8 17. N1c3 and White is much better...
There wasn't really a blunder, more a series of dubious choices.
Regards, Peter
--
TAS/DPIWE/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
And how sweet a story it is, when you hear Charley Parker tell it
- Kerouac, Mexico City Blues
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Date: 02 Feb 2006 16:18:32
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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En/na Peter Billam ha escrit:
> Interesting game! Apparently this is known as
> [Opening "Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)"]
> [Variation "Mujannah formation"]
>
> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 { 6... Bg7! }
> 7. e3 f4 { 7... d6 or 7... Qf6 }
> 8. exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2?!
> { not 11... Rg8?! 12. Be2!
> ( 12. Qh4?! Qb2 13. Qxh7 Qc1+ 14. Nd1 Kf8 15. Nc3 d6 16. Qe4 Nd7
> and Black is the exchange up )
> 12... Rxg2 13. Bh5 Rg7 14. Qh6 Rg8 15. Qxh7 Rf8 16. Rg1 d6 17. Rg8 +-
>
> but 11... d6! and now
> either 12. Be2 Qb2 (12... Nd7 13. Qd2) 13. Bh5 Nd7 14. Qxf7+ Kd8
> 15. O-O Nf6 looks unclear; Black might even be better
>
> or 12. Qd2 ( played by Aleksej Aleksandrov (2535) in 1994 )
> 12... Rg8 13. g3 a6 14. Bd3 Nd7 15. O-O (15. Bxh7 Ne5)
> 15... Ne5 16. Be2 Bg4 looks unclear
> }
> 12. d6 Qc2?!
> { or 12... Nc6 13. Bd3 and now
> Hodgson (2570) - Van der Wiel (2570) Amsterdam 1994 continued
> 13... exd6 14. O-O Ne5 15. Qf6 O-O 16. Nd5 Re8 17. Qg5+ Ng6
> 18. Nf6+ Kf8 19. Qh6+ Ke7 20. Nd5+ Kd8 21. Bxg6 hxg6 22. Nbc3 1-0
> and Maes (2245) - Cherniaev (2335) Leuven 1994 continued
> 13... e6 14. O-O f5 15. Qh6 b6 16. Be2 Qxe2 17. Nxe2 Bb7 18. Qh5+ Kf8
> 19. Qh6+ Kf7 20. Qh5+ Kf6 21. Nbc3 Rag8 22. f3 Kg7 23. Nf4 Kf8 1-0
> }
> 13. Qe3 1-0
> presumably because of
> 13... e6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. O-O (15. Qe5 Qc1+ 16. Ke2 Qb2+)
> 15... Nc6 16. Nb5 Kf8 17. N1c3 and White is much better...
>
> There wasn't really a blunder, more a series of dubious choices.
>
> Regards, Peter
Well, if you compare 12...Nc6 13.Bd3 with 12...Qc2?? 13.Qe3 Nc6 14.Bd3
Qb2 you can see that black lost two tempi in a critical position (which
maybe is worse for black without losing tempo). I understand Shirov
being with no interest in continue playing.
AT
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 11:22:13
From:
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
If you are referring to Capa's famous blunder against Saemisch at
Carslbad 1929, he at least had the excuse of a major distraction. The
story goes that he had just learned that both his wife *and* his
mistress had arrived at the tournament. Distracted by this predicament,
he dropped a piece.
One wonders if Shirov had a similar distraction.
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 00:39:04
From: John J.
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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I don't understand. I don't see an immediate win for White.
Why not 14......e6?
"Antonio Torrecillas" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
> [Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
> [Date "2006.01.29"]
> [Round "6"]
> [White "Wells, P."]
> [Black "Shirov, A."]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [ECO "A45"]
> [WhiteElo "2501"]
> [BlackElo "2709"]
> [PlyCount "25"]
> [EventDate "2006.01.24"]
>
> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 7. e3 f4 8.
> exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2 12. d6 Qc2 13. Qe3 1-0
>
> Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
>
> AT
>
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 02:37:14
From: CeeBee
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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"John J." <[email protected] > wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis:
> I don't understand. I don't see an immediate win for White.
>
> Why not 14......e6?
13... e6 doesn't prevent 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. Qh6 and the threath 16.0-0 17.Nd5
and 18.Nf6+ and the black king can't go to c7 or e7 due to the pawn on d6 -
he has to play Kd8, Kc8 and white can go inside with Qg7 and Qxh8+ and the
rook is lost.
--
CeeBee
*** The Cookie Has Spoken ***
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 00:20:10
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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> [Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
> [Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
> [Date "2006.01.29"]
> [Round "6"]
> [White "Wells, P."]
> [Black "Shirov, A."]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [ECO "A45"]
> [WhiteElo "2501"]
> [BlackElo "2709"]
> [PlyCount "25"]
> [EventDate "2006.01.24"]
>
> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 7. e3 f4 8.
> exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2 12. d6 Qc2 13. Qe3 1-0
>
> Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
Thirteen moves is an eternity in the Tromp.
2...c5 is pretty lame.
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Date: 12 Feb 2006 23:09:47
From: Falkentyne
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:20:10 GMT, "Ray Gordon" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>> [Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
>> [Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
>> [Date "2006.01.29"]
>> [Round "6"]
>> [White "Wells, P."]
>> [Black "Shirov, A."]
>> [Result "1-0"]
>> [ECO "A45"]
>> [WhiteElo "2501"]
>> [BlackElo "2709"]
>> [PlyCount "25"]
>> [EventDate "2006.01.24"]
>>
>> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5 6. c4 Bh6 7. e3 f4 8.
>> exf4 Bxf4 9. Qxf4 Qxb2 10. Ne2 Qxa1 11. Nec3 Qb2 12. d6 Qc2 13. Qe3 1-0
>>
>> Not only Capablanca make mistakes in first moves!!
>
>Thirteen moves is an eternity in the Tromp.
>
>2...c5 is pretty lame.
>
>
Spoken like a drab, boring dogmatic player.
c5 is actually a strong and arguably the most dynamic move.
The problem in this game is that the Bh6 and f5-f4 idea was already
given as dubious in Hodgson-Van der Wiel. In the annotations to that
game, it was proven that 11...d6 was forced, and Qb2 simply lost for
Black after 12. d6 ! (as played) Nc6 (forced; Qb6 loses to 13 Nb5, and
White just has too many threats).
The bottom line is, f5-f4 was simply a dubious idea, and Shirov
repeated the same mistake as Wells.
Black should just play Bg7 with excellent chances to equalize with
ideas like ...d6, or even delaying Bg7 to play...Rg8 ...Nd7-e5 and
maybe...Bf5, etc, (if Black doesn't play f5 yet). I've gotten many
nice attacking positions with this idea.
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 12:49:58
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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tin Brown wrote:
> 13. ... e6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. Qh6 Nc6 16. O-O
> or
> 13. ... Nc6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. O-O b6 16. Be4
In the second line, how about the plan Re1? There are two plans, one to
catch the queen after Re2, Qa1, a3 and Ra2, the other Nd5, dxe7, Nf6 or
if Black plays e6, Nd5, Qg5-g7, Nf6.
Best defense is 16. Re1 Bb7 17. Re2 Qa1 18. a3 0-0-0 19. Ra2 Qxa2 20.
Nxa2 exd6 when Black managed at least to develop but should still be
bad. 17...Qb4 18. Nd5 Qa5 19. dxe7 f6 20. Qh6 is losing quickly and
15...e6 16. Re1 h6 17. Re2 Qb6 18. Nd5 Qd8 19. Nc7+ is just hopeless.
When I think about it, Re1 is also strong in the first line.
13...e6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. 0-0 h6 (covers g5 and h6) 16. Re1 Na6 (covers
c7) 17. Qe5 0-0 (17...Rg8 18. Qf6 Kf8 19. Bh7 (threat Qd8+) 19...Qb6 20.
Re4 and it's curtains) 18. Qf6 Nb4 19. Re3 Qc1+ 20. Bf1 Qxe3 21. fxe3
and next comes the plan Ne4-g3-h5.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 31 Jan 2006 17:21:27
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Shirov loses in 13 moves
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En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> 13. ... Nc6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. O-O b6
> 16. Re1 Bb7 17. Re2 Qa1 18. a3 0-0-0 19. Ra2 Qxa2 20.
> Nxa2 exd6 when Black managed at least to develop but should still be
> bad. 17...Qb4 18. Nd5 Qa5 19. dxe7 f6 20. Qh6 is losing quickly and
> 15...e6 16. Re1 h6 17. Re2 Qb6 18. Nd5 Qd8 19. Nc7+ is just hopeless.
I analized a similar line continuing 15...e6 16.Nb5 Kf8 17.N1c3 a6
18.Qh6 Rg8 19.Rb1 with inmediate win
> When I think about it, Re1 is also strong in the first line.
> 13...e6 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. 0-0 h6 (covers g5 and h6) 16. Re1 Na6 (covers
> c7) 17. Qe5 0-0 (17...Rg8 18. Qf6 Kf8 19. Bh7 (threat Qd8+) 19...Qb6 20.
> Re4 and it's curtains) 18. Qf6 Nb4 19. Re3 Qc1+ 20. Bf1 Qxe3 21. fxe3
> and next comes the plan Ne4-g3-h5.
I analyzed too this 15.0-0 and now:
- 15... Nc6 16.Nb5 trasposing to previous line
- I also considerwed 15... a6 16.Qh6 Nc6 17.Nd5 +-
> Claus-Juergen
All my lines were analized with the help of Fritz 8
Antonio TM
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