Sicilain Move Order Question

Date: 21 Jun 2006 08:50:11
From: mike
Subject: Sicilain Move Order Question

I should probably know this, but ....

I was playing over an old game the other day, and the moves were 1.e4 c5
2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3

Can someone tell me why the modern move order is 3.d4? What's the drawback
of 3.Nc3?

Also, What's the drawback of 2.d4 (as in 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd 3.Nf3) as Morphy
used to play?

Thanks

Date: 22 Jun 2006 16:28:52
From: Ken Jones
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

Ray Gordon wrote:
> >avoid
>
> When this word enters a discussion on openings, that's all she wrote.
>
> Want to avoid a Pelikan? Take up ping pong.
>
>
> --
> "Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
> District of PA Judge
> From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918

sez the scrambled-headed one-minute grandmaster!

Date: 21 Jun 2006 15:47:14
From: Ken Jones
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

mike wrote:
> I should probably know this, but ....
>
> I was playing over an old game the other day, and the moves were 1.e4 c5
> 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3
>
> Can someone tell me why the modern move order is 3.d4? What's the drawback
> of 3.Nc3?
>

By using this move order White no longer has c2-c4 available, which is
an important possibility in the Accelerated Dragon and the
Paulsen/Kan/Taimanov complex. On the plus side, the line 3.d4 cxd4
4.Nxd4 Qb6 (very topical now) is avoided. But of course the real
impetus for this move order's gaining popularity was to avoid the
Sveshnikov. If 3.Nc3 e6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 (angling for a
transposition into the Svesh after 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bf4 e5 8.Bg5), White
sidesteps with 6.Nxc6!

There are other independent lines that avoid d2-d4 depending on how
Black chooses to meet 3.Nc3--and don't get me started on the
differences between this stuff and 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2!

Ken

Date: 22 Jun 2006 13:40:17
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

>avoid

When this word enters a discussion on openings, that's all she wrote.

Want to avoid a Pelikan? Take up ping pong.

--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918

Date: 28 Jun 2006 13:47:39
From:
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

Ray Gordon schreef:
>> avoid
>
> When this word enters a discussion on openings, that's all she wrote.
>
> Want to avoid a Pelikan? Take up ping pong.
>
>
:)
that's a good one.
yes, for years myself i was afraid for Sicilian
and played ugly moves like 1.d4!?, or 1.e3?!

still puzzling now with variations as Chelyabinsk,
Kalashnikov, Sveshnikov, Taimanov, and some more.

The positive side of such puzzling is that black
also doesnt have easy play, so usually the best
player wins. Preparation might help but is not all.

Of course white can avoid mainstream theory with
sidesteps like b3 or g3, eg. J.Emms in his book
'attacking with e4' is advising closed Sicilian
with lines like Nc3 and g3, possibly d3 (or d4).

But why should you when you can use programs
like Bookbuilder ?
:)
best regards
www.superchess.com
(NEW version now, June 2006 for
1024*768 resolution)
PS is this spam ?
hmm, maybe only a few last lines;
the rest is honest& free opening advice

Date: 21 Jun 2006 13:53:02
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

>I should probably know this, but ....
>
> I was playing over an old game the other day, and the moves were 1.e4 c5
> 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3

3...e5

Date: 21 Jun 2006 19:20:25
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Sicilain Move Order Question

mike wrote:
> I should probably know this, but ....
>
> I was playing over an old game the other day, and the moves were 1.e4 c5
> 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3
>
> Can someone tell me why the modern move order is 3.d4?

Actually there are plenty of super-GM games from the last year or so
that featured this position, e.g. a game Kasparov-Leko,
Topalov-Kasparov, Svidler-Shirov, Adams-Leko...

> What's the drawback
> of 3.Nc3?

Leko certainly once commented that he thinks black has (pretty boring)
equality after 3...e5 and he has score 50% against super-GM competition
with that (+2 -2 =16).

> Also, What's the drawback of 2.d4 (as in 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd 3.Nf3) as Morphy
> used to play?

I think that maybe black gets extra options, while after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3
it is white who has a number of interesting extra options such as
2...Nc6 3.Bb5 or 2...a6 3.c3 or 2...d6 3.Bb5+.
Other than that I don't think there is so much wrong with it, I don't
see 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd 3.Nf3 e5, 3...Qa5+ or 3...d5 as particularly
promising for black, but e.g. 3...a6 would pretty much guarantee a
hedgehog without having to deal with stuff like 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c3!.
Similarly 3...Nf6 is probably a fairly good move, if black is happy with
a transposition to the c3-Sicilian after 4.e5 Nd5 5.c3 (I don't see that
anything else by white is any good, but I could be wrong), which is
maybe ginally less dangerous than the Open Sicilian.

--Bj�rn