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Date: 21 Apr 2005 11:34:41
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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Greetings. After
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6
6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qd2
Polugajevski in his "Sizilianisch - Morra Gambit bis Scheveninger
System", Sportsverlag Berlin 1987, gives 8.Qd2? and recommends Nxe4!
Without remembering Polu's recommendation, last night I won an OTB
game as Black after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Bxe7 Nxd2 10. Bxd8 Nxd4 ...
But looking at it again, surely after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+
White has huge positional compensation for the pawn ?
For example 10... Kf8 11. O-O-O and Black seems very disorganised;
surely White has more here than in the Mikenas English ...
Or does Black have a better 8th move ?
Regards, Peter
--
Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061
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Date: 22 Apr 2005 14:21:22
From: James
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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�ڻ{���O e5 c4....
"Peter Billam" <[email protected] > ���g��l��s�D:[email protected]...
> Greetings. After
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6
> 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qd2
>
> Polugajevski in his "Sizilianisch - Morra Gambit bis Scheveninger
> System", Sportsverlag Berlin 1987, gives 8.Qd2? and recommends Nxe4!
> Without remembering Polu's recommendation, last night I won an OTB
> game as Black after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Bxe7 Nxd2 10. Bxd8 Nxd4 ...
>
> But looking at it again, surely after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+
> White has huge positional compensation for the pawn ?
> For example 10... Kf8 11. O-O-O and Black seems very disorganised;
> surely White has more here than in the Mikenas English ...
>
> Or does Black have a better 8th move ?
>
> Regards, Peter
>
> --
>
> Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 13:20:18
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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Peter Billam wrote:
> Greetings. After
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6
> 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qd2
>
> But looking at it again, surely after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+
> White has huge positional compensation for the pawn ?
> For example 10... Kf8 11. O-O-O and Black seems very disorganised;
> surely White has more here than in the Mikenas English ...
The position at d6 can't be maintained without making severe concessions.
11. 0-0-0 Be7 12. N4b5 (12. Nb3 Bxd6 13. Qxd6+ Qe7 14. Be2 Qxd6 15. Rxd6
Ne7 (plan Nf5 or Nd5/Ke7) 16. Bg4 Nd5 17. Re1 Nf6 (plan Ne8) 18. Bf3 Ne8
19. Rd4 (threat Nc5) 19...Rb8 -/+) 12...a6 13. Nc3 (13. Na3!? plan Nc4
13...b5 14. c4 Qc7 15. Kb1 Bxd6 16. Qxd6 Qxd6 17. Rxd6 Ke7 18. c5 Nb4!
19. Nc2 Nd5. White has maintained d6 but Black has closed the d-file
anyway, he has a great Nd5 and will connect his rooks soon. White has
severe weaknesses on the queenside. -/+) 13...Bxd6 14. Qxd6+ Qe7 15. Ne4
f5 16. Qxe7+ Kxe7 17. Nd6 Ne5 18. Be2 Nf7 19. Nxf7 Kxf7 20. Rd6 b5 21.
Rhd1 Ra7 plan Rc7/Ke7/Bb7 -/+.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 22 Apr 2005 15:22:21
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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In article <[email protected] >, Claus-J�rgen Heigl wrote:
> Peter Billam wrote:
>> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6
>> 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qd2
>> But looking at it again, surely after 8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+
>> White has huge positional compensation for the pawn ?
>
> The position at d6 can't be maintained without making severe concessions.
> 11. 0-0-0 Be7 12. N4b5 (12. Nb3 Bxd6 13. Qxd6+ Qe7 14. Be2 Qxd6 15. Rxd6
> Ne7 (plan Nf5 or Nd5/Ke7)
That Nc6-e7-d5-f6-e8 looks slow but it seems to work
> 16. Bg4 Nd5 17. Re1 Nf6 (plan Ne8) 18. Bf3 Ne8
> 19. Rd4 (threat Nc5) 19...Rb8 -/+) 12...a6 13. Nc3 (13. Na3!? plan Nc4
> 13...b5 14. c4 Qc7 15. Kb1 Bxd6 16. Qxd6 Qxd6 17. Rxd6 Ke7 18. c5 Nb4!
> 19. Nc2 Nd5. White has maintained d6 but Black has closed the d-file
> anyway, he has a great Nd5 and will connect his rooks soon. White has
> severe weaknesses on the queenside. -/+) 13...Bxd6 14. Qxd6+ Qe7 15. Ne4
> f5 16. Qxe7+ Kxe7 17. Nd6 Ne5 18. Be2 Nf7 19. Nxf7 Kxf7 20. Rd6 b5 21.
> Rhd1 Ra7 plan Rc7/Ke7/Bb7 -/+.
Yes, I think you've convinced me ... I'll use 8... Nxe4 again next time.
8. Bc4 is another one where Black can reply 8... Nxe4 (I've won a 10-min
OTB game in this line), though 8... Qb6 might be better, it seems to
press against lots of weak points, and Nxe4 is still in the air...
8. Be2 too invites 8... Nxe4 ?! (!?)
A) 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+ Ke7 11. N4b5
(11. O-O Kxd6 12. Nb5+ Kc5! 13. Qd6+ Kb6 14. c4 a5 =)
11... Qa5+ 12. Kf1 (12. b4?! Nxb4!)
12... a6 13. Nxc8+ Rhxc8 14. Nd6 Rc7 15. g3 Bf6 with advantage
B) 9. Bxe7! Nxc3
a) 10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Nxc6 bxc6
A) 12. Rxd1?! Kxd8 13. O-O Rb8 and it's unclear if White has enough
B) 12. Ba5 Nxb2 13. Bc3 Na4 14. Bxg7 Rg8 15. Be5!? and
White has compensation; 15... Nc5 16. O-O
(or 16. Bd4 d6 17. Bxc5 dc5 18. Rb1)
16... Ba6 17. Bxa6 Nxa6 18. Bd6 and Black needs improvements :-(
b) 10. Nxc6 bc6 11. Qd3?! (11. Bxd8 transposes above)
11... Qxe7 12. Qxc3 O-O 13. O-O d5!? (13... Bb7!?)
14. Qxc6 Bd7 15. Qa6 Rfc8 16. Rac1 Qb4 17. b3 Rc3! 18. Rfd1 Qb6
with initiative
Regards, Peter
--
Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061
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Date: 23 Apr 2005 01:42:35
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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Peter Billam wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Claus-J=FCrgen Hei=
gl wrote:
>=20
>>>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6
>>>6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qd2
> 8. Bc4 is another one where Black can reply 8... Nxe4 (I've won a 10-mi=
n
> OTB game in this line), though 8... Qb6 might be better, it seems to
> press against lots of weak points, and Nxe4 is still in the air...
On 8. Bc4 Nxe4 might be a little dangerous. 9. Nxc6 bxc6 (9...Nxc3 10.=20
Qg4! bxc6 11. Qxg7 Rf8 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. Qxc3 +=3D; 9...dxc6? 10. Bxe7=20
Qxd1+ 11. Rxd1 Nxc3 12. Rd8+ Kxe7 13. Rxh8 +/-) 10. Bxe7 Nxc3 11. Qd4!=20
Kxe7! 12. Qxc3. White has some compensation here. If 12...d5 13. Be2 and =
both c6 and g7 hangs.
> 8. Be2 too invites 8... Nxe4 ?! (!?)
> A) 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+ Ke7=20
10...Kf8 looks much more safer. White doesn't have much here.
> 11. N4b5
> (11. O-O Kxd6 12. Nb5+ Kc5!=20
Obviously a computer line. White has many possibilities here, for=20
example 13. b4+ Kb6 (13...Nxb4?? 14. Qd6 mate; 13...Kxb4?? 14. Qd2+ Ka4=20
15. c4! idea Bd1+ and Black is soon mated) 14. c4 d6 (14...a5 15. c5+=20
Ka6 16. Nd6+ Ka7 17. Nxf7 Qe8 18. b5! +- e.g. 18...Be7 19. Nxh8 Nb4 20.=20
Qd4 plan b6+/Qf4+) 15. Qb3 ideas Qe3+ and Rfd1. Black has a very hard=20
time here and is probably lost.
> 13. Qd6+ Kb6 14. c4 a5 =3D)
> 11... Qa5+ 12. Kf1 (12. b4?! Nxb4!)
> 12... a6 13. Nxc8+ Rhxc8 14. Nd6 Rc7 15. g3 Bf6 with advantage
> B) 9. Bxe7! Nxc3
> a) 10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Nxc6 bxc6
> A) 12. Rxd1?! Kxd8 13. O-O Rb8 and it's unclear if White has e=
nough
> B) 12. Ba5 Nxb2 13. Bc3 Na4 14. Bxg7 Rg8
14...Rh7 is necessary. If 14...Rg8 15. Bxh6 Rxg2 16. h4 +-
This is the critical line IMO.
After 8. Be2 Qb6 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 is practically forced. Black should have a =
slight advantage with the bishops pair.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 27 Apr 2005 10:04:47
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7
============
Peter Billam wrote:
>> 8. Bc4 is another one where Black can reply 8...Nxe4 (I've won a 10min
>> OTB game in this line), though 8... Qb6 might be better, it seems to
>> press against lots of weak points, and Nxe4 is still in the air...
>
Claus-J�rgen Heigl wrote:
> On 8. Bc4 Nxe4 might be a little dangerous. 9. Nxc6 bxc6 (9...Nxc3
> 10. Qg4! bxc6 11. Qxg7 Rf8 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. Qxc3 +=; 9...dxc6?
> 10. Bxe7 Qxd1+ 11. Rxd1 Nxc3 12. Rd8+ Kxe7 13. Rxh8 +/-) 10. Bxe7
> Nxc3 11. Qd4! Kxe7! 12. Qxc3. White has some compensation here.
> If 12...d5 13. Be2 and both c6 and g7 hangs.
They do, but c6 is a reasonable sacrifice:
8. Bc4 Nxe4 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. Bxe7 Nxc3 11. Qd4 Kxe7 12. Qxc3 d5
13. Be2 d4 14. Qxc6 (14. Qb4+ is lame; Qd6 15. Qa5 Bb7 16. O-O c5 -/+)
14... Qa5+ 15. c3 Bd7 16. Qc4 dc3 17. Qxc3 Qxc3 18. bc3 Rab8
and Black has much better play in the endgame.
13. O-O-O is also a challenge
A) 13... f6 14. Qg3 Kf7 15. Bd3 Qb6 16. Bg6+ Ke7 17. Rhe1 Qb8 +=
B) 13... Rg8 14. Rhe1 Kf8 15. Bd3 Qg5+ 16. Re3 Bd7 +=
C) 13... Kf8 (!) 14. Be2 Qg5+ 15. Kb1 Bd7 16. Qb4+ (or 16.g3 or 16.Bf3)
16... Qe7 17. Qb7 Qd8 18. Qb4+ Kg8 and Black seems OK
============
>> 8. Be2 too invites 8... Nxe4 ?! (!?)
>> A) 9. Nxe4 Bxh4 10. Nd6+ Ke7
>
> 10...Kf8 looks much safer. White doesn't have much here.
Agreed. E.g. 11. Nf3 Be7 12. O-O Qc7 13. Nb5 Qf4 14. c4 a6 15. Nc3 d6
>> 11. N4b5 (11. O-O Kxd6 12. Nb5+ Kc5!
> Obviously a computer line.
I confess. Good fun though, very romantic.
> White has many possibilities here, for example 13. b4+ Kb6
> (13...Nxb4?? 14. Qd6 mate; 13...Kxb4?? 14. Qd2+ Ka4 15. c4! idea Bd1+
> and Black is soon mated) 14. c4 d6 (14...a5 15. c5+ Ka6 16. Nd6+ Ka7
> 17. Nxf7 Qe8 18. b5! +- e.g. 18...Be7 19. Nxh8 Nb4 20. Qd4 plan b6+/Qf4+)
> 15. Qb3 ideas Qe3+ and Rfd1. Black has a very hard time here
Agreed.
>> B) 9. Bxe7! Nxc3
>> a) 10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Nxc6 bxc6
>> A) 12. Rxd1?! Kxd8 13. O-O Rb8 it's unclear if White has enough
>> B) 12. Ba5 Nxb2 13. Bc3 Na4 14. Bxg7 Rg8
> 14...Rh7 is necessary. If 14...Rg8 15. Bxh6 Rxg2 16. h4 +-
> This is the critical line IMO.
Agreed. I haven't had time to look at 14...Rh7 yet.
> After 8. Be2 Qb6 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 is practically forced.
> Black should have a slight advantage with the bishops pair.
============
Meanwhile, back in my OTB game, after
8. Qd2 Nxe4 9. Bxe7 Nxd2 10. Bxd8 Nxd4 and now:
11. O-O-O is an interesting try that neither of us saw at the time
A) 11... Kxd8 12. Rxd2 Nc6 13. Nb5 d5 14. c4 Ne7 15. Nc3 Bd7 16. cd5 +=
B) 11... Nxf1 12. Bc7 Nf5 13. Rhxf1 d5 14. Rfe1 Kd7 15. Bf4 Kc6
16. g4 (or 16. Ne2 immediately) 16...Ne7 17. Ne2 b6 18. Nd4+ Kd7
and Black might be OK... I think Polu's comment was "8. Qd2? verbietet
sich wegen Nxe4!" but it's not quite as simple as that...
---
Claus-J�rgen, thanks for your help.
Regards, Peter
Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061
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Date: 28 Apr 2005 12:08:33
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: Sicilian 4Ns 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Qd2
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In article <[email protected] >, Peter Billam wrote:
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Be7
>
>>> 8. Be2 too invites 8... Nxe4 ?! (!?)
>>> B) 9. Bxe7! Nxc3
>>> a) 10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Nxc6 bxc6
>>> A) 12. Rxd1?! Kxd8 13. O-O Rb8 it's unclear if White has enough
>>> B) 12. Ba5 Nxb2 13. Bc3 Na4 14. Bxg7 Rg8
Claus-J�rgen Heigl wrote:
>> 14...Rh7 is necessary. If 14...Rg8 15. Bxh6 Rxg2 16. h4 +-
>> This is the critical line IMO.
>
> Agreed. I haven't had time to look at 14...Rh7 yet.
10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Ba5 Nxb2 13. Bc3 Na4 14. Bxg7 Rh7
15. Bf6 (threat Bd3) Nc5 16. Bd4 d6 17. O-O-O (17. Bf3 should transpose)
17... Rb8 18. Bxc5 dxc5 19. Bf3 Bd7 20. Rd3 Ke7 21. Rc3 Rg7
(or 21... Rb5 22. Ra3 Rb7 23. Ra5 Rg7 is the same)
22. Rxc5 Rg5 23. Rc3 Ra5 24. a3
In a difficult endgame, Black's Bd7 is bad and the pawns are slightly weaker.
======
>> After 8. Be2 Qb6 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 is practically forced.
>> Black should have a slight advantage with the bishops pair.
White could treat it as a poisoned-pawn variation, like
8. Be2 Qb6 9. Nxc6 bc6 10. Qd3 Qxb2 but two pawns seems excessive.
After 8. Be2 Qb6 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Nbd5 Black has to decide between
10... a6 11. Nd6+
10... Bxc3+ 11. bc3
10... O-O 11. Qd2
but this could be considered off-topic :-)
Regards, Peter
--
Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061
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