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Date: 03 May 2005 13:14:58
From: Tantale
Subject: Theorical draw ?
8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 9
White : Kh7 Qd5 d2 g5
Black : Kd1 Qg1 Rf3
Black to play.

I think this position is draw. But how to prove it with sentences?

thanks


--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)






 
Date: 03 May 2005 17:50:51
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Tantale wrote:
> 8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 9
> I think this position is draw. But how to prove it with sentences?

I'm not sure. Tempting is Qh1+ but this could lead to a draw.

1...Qh1+ 2. Kg7

Any other move loses the queen due to a discovered check by the rook.

2...Qh5

Black attacks both g5 and f7. Now White can't move king or queen.

3. d3

At least interrupts Black's control of the sixth rank. White hopes for
some checks.

A move with either king or queen loses. If the queen moves either f7 or
g5 is undefended. If 3. Kg6 Qg6+ 4. Kh8 Rh3 mates. Also 3. d4 loses to
3...Re3 (threat Re7+) 4. Kf6 (4. Qd6 Qxg5+; 4. Kf8 Qh7 5. Qd6 Qh8+ 6.
Kf7 Qe8+ 7. Kg7 (7. Kf6 Rf3+ 8. Kg7 Qf7+ 9. Kh8 Re3 and wins) 7. Kg7
Re7+ 8. Kh6 Qh8+ 9. Kg6 Qh7+ 10. Kf6 Qf7 mate) 4...Rg3 5. Qg8 (5. Qe5
loses control of f7 5...Rf3+ 6. Ke7 Qf7+ 7. Kd6 Qg6+ 8. Qe6 Qxg5 -+)
5...Qf3+ 6. Ke5 (6. Kg5 Rxg5+ 7. Kxg5 Qg3+) 6...Qe3+ attacks both d4 and
g5 7. Kf5 Qxd4 -+

3...Kd2 4. Qa2+

4. d4 Kd1 and White is in Zugzwang. The queen has to protect g5 and f7,
the king has to protect g6. g5 is pinned.

4...Kxd3 5. Qd5+ Ke3 6. Qe5+ Kf2

The black plan is to secure the king and attack the white king with
queen and rook.

7. Qd4+ (7. Qb2+ Kg3 8. Qe5+ Kg4 plan Kxg5 and Kh4) 7...Kg2 8. g6.

Here a win is hard to find. f7 is defended and the black king prone to
checks.

Interesting is 1...Rh3+ with the plan to force the white king to g6. The
pawn g5 will be blocked and White has difficulties to defend f7.

1...Rh3+ 2. Kg7 (2. Kg6 Qb6+ 3. Kf5 doesn't make a difference; 2. Kg8?
Rg3 -+) 2...Qa7+ 3. Kf6 Qb6+ and now:

a) 4. Kf5 Qf2+ 5. Kg6 (5. Ke6 or Ke5 5...Rg3 and White can't defend g5)
5...Qh4 6. Qf5 (6. d4 Qh5+ 7. Kg7 Rg3 8. Kf6 Re3 -+; 6. d3 Qh7+ 7. Kf6
Rxd3) 6...Kxd2. Since White can't defend f7 with a pawn at g6 he has a
lot more difficulties to draw.

b) 4. Ke5 Qg6. g5 is blocked and the white king is in the open.

c) 4. Kg7 Qc7+ 5. Kf6 Qf4+ 6. Qf5 (6. Kg6 Qf8 7. d3 Rf3 -/+) 6...Qd4+ 7.
Kg6 Ra3. Again White has difficulties, for example 8. Qf1+ Kc2 9. Qg2
Qd7+ 10. Kh6 Rg3 11. Qe4+ Kxd2 12. Qf5 Ke3 13. Qf6 Qd3.

This all is not very clear, but I think Black has some advantage.
Tablebases, anyone?


  
Date: 04 May 2005 19:25:03
From: Dc Gentle
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Claus-Jürgen Heigl wrote:

>
> This all is not very clear, but I think Black has some advantage.
> Tablebases, anyone?

Greetings!

Recently I got Nalimov's 5-men tablebases
and I thought this was a nice position to test
them. Yes, you are right, Claus-Jürgen, Black
has got an advantage, and it's even decisive.

In this endgame the main idea for Black is
to set up a battery of rook and queen on the
sixth rank blocking pawn g5 and giving shelter
for the black king in order to avoid eternal
check. Consider the king walk starting with
8. Qg2+. This is totally under control of the
tablebases. The king eventually manages to
cross the 6th rank and can also avoid a
queen fork on the rook.

Here there are the variants:

[Event "Analysis"]
[Site "*"]
[Date "2005.05.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "White"]
[Black "Black"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 1"]

1...Qh2+ 2. Kg6

(2. Kg7 Ra3 3. d4
(3. g6 Ra7+ 4. Kf6 Qf4+ 5. Ke6 Ra6+ 6. Kd7 Qxd2
7. Qxd2+ Kxd2 8. g7 Rg6 9. Ke7 Rxg7+)
3...Qh5 4. Kf6 Rg3 5. Qe5 Rf3+ 6. Ke7 Qg6 7. Qd5 Re3+
8. Kd8 Qe8+ 9. Kc7 Rc3+ 10. Kb7 Qc8+ 11. Kb6 Qb8+
12. Qb7 Qd6+ 13. Ka5 Ra3+ 14. Kb5 Rb3+ 15. Kc4 Rxb7
16. Kd3 Qd5 17. Ke3 Rf7 18. g6 Qf3#)

2...Ra3 3. d4

(3. Qe6 Qg3 4. Qd5 Ra6+ 5. Kg7 Qc7+ 6. Qf7 Qe5+
7. Kh7 Qe4+ 8. g6 Ra8 9. Qb3+ Kxd2 10. Qb2+ Ke1
11. Qc1+ Ke2 12. Qc5 Qh1+ 13. Kg7 Qh8+ 14. Kf7 Qg8+
15. Kf6 Ra6+ 16. Ke5 Qh8+ 17. Ke4 Re6+ 18. Kd5 Re5+
19. Kd4 Rxc5+ 20. Kxc5 Qf6 21. Kc4 Qxg6 22. Kd5 Kd3
23. Ke5 Qe8+ 24. Kd5 Qe7 25. Kc6 Kc4 26. Kb6 Qd7
27. Ka6 Kc5 28. Ka5 Qb5#)

3...Qc2+ 4. Kg7 Ra7+ 5. Kf6 Ra6+ 6. Kg7

(6. Ke5 Qc7+ 7. Ke4 Ra3 8. Qb5 Qh7+ 9. Kf4 Qf7+
10. Ke4 Qf3+ 11. Ke5 Re3+ 12. Kd6 Qf8+ 13. Kc7 Qe7+
14. Kc6 Rc3+ 15. Kb6
(15. Kd5 Qxg5+ 16. Ke6 Qxb5 17. d5 Rd3 18. Kf6 Qxd5
19. Ke7 Rf3 20. Ke8 Qb7 21. Kd8 Rf8#)
15...Qc7+ 16. Ka6 Ra3+ 17. Qa4+ Rxa4+ 18. Kb5 Qc4+
19. Kb6 Rb4+ 20. Ka7 Qa2#)

6...Qg6+ 7. Kf8 Kd2 8. Qg2+ Ke3 9. Qg3+ Kxd4 10. Qf4+ Kd5
11. Qf3+ Ke5 12. Qc3+ Kf5 13. Qc5+ Kg4 14. Qg1+ Kh5
15. Qh2+ Kxg5 16. Qd2+ Kf5 17. Qd3+ Ke5 18. Qb5+ Kf4
19. Qf1+ Ke3 20. Qe1+ Kd3 21. Qf1+ Kc3 22. Qe1+ Kc4
23. Qf1+ Kc5 24. Qc1+ Kb5 25. Qf1+ Kb6 26. Qf2+ Kb7
27. Qf3+ Kc8 28. Qc3+ Rc6 29. Qh3+ Qe6 30. Qxe6+ Rxe6
31. Kg7 Kd7 32. Kf7 Rd6 33. Kf8 Ke6 34. Kg7 Ke7 35. Kh8
Rg6 36. Kh7 Kf7 37. Kh8 Rh6# 0-1

Enjoy,
DC





  
Date: 04 May 2005 19:21:03
From: Dc Gentle
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Claus-Jürgen Heigl wrote:

>
> This all is not very clear, but I think Black has some advantage.
> Tablebases, anyone?

Greetings!

Recently I got Nalimov's 5-men tablebases
and I thought this was a nice position to test
them. Yes, you are right, Claus-Jürgen, Black
has got an advantage, and it's even decisive.

In this endgame the main idea for Black is
to set up a battery of rook and queen on the
sixth rank blocking pawn g5 and giving shelter
for the black king in order to avoid eternal
check. Consider the king walk starting with
8. Qg2+. This is totally under control of the
tablebases. The king eventually manages to
cross the 6th rank and can also avoid a
queen fork on the rook.

Here there are the variants:

[Event "Analysis"]
[Site "*"]
[Date "2005.05.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "White"]
[Black "Black"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 1"]

1...Qh2+ 2. Kg6

(2. Kg7 Ra3 3. d4
(3. g6 Ra7+ 4. Kf6 Qf4+ 5. Ke6 Ra6+ 6. Kd7 Qxd2
7. Qxd2+ Kxd2 8. g7 Rg6 9. Ke7 Rxg7+)
3...Qh5 4. Kf6 Rg3 5. Qe5 Rf3+ 6. Ke7 Qg6 7. Qd5 Re3+
8. Kd8 Qe8+ 9. Kc7 Rc3+ 10. Kb7 Qc8+ 11. Kb6 Qb8+
12. Qb7 Qd6+ 13. Ka5 Ra3+ 14. Kb5 Rb3+ 15. Kc4 Rxb7
16. Kd3 Qd5 17. Ke3 Rf7 18. g6 Qf3#)

2...Ra3 3. d4

(3. Qe6 Qg3 4. Qd5 Ra6+ 5. Kg7 Qc7+ 6. Qf7 Qe5+
7. Kh7 Qe4+ 8. g6 Ra8 9. Qb3+ Kxd2 10. Qb2+ Ke1
11. Qc1+ Ke2 12. Qc5 Qh1+ 13. Kg7 Qh8+ 14. Kf7 Qg8+
15. Kf6 Ra6+ 16. Ke5 Qh8+ 17. Ke4 Re6+ 18. Kd5 Re5+
19. Kd4 Rxc5+ 20. Kxc5 Qf6 21. Kc4 Qxg6 22. Kd5 Kd3
23. Ke5 Qe8+ 24. Kd5 Qe7 25. Kc6 Kc4 26. Kb6 Qd7
27. Ka6 Kc5 28. Ka5 Qb5#)

3...Qc2+ 4. Kg7 Ra7+ 5. Kf6 Ra6+ 6. Kg7

(6. Ke5 Qc7+ 7. Ke4 Ra3 8. Qb5 Qh7+ 9. Kf4 Qf7+
10. Ke4 Qf3+ 11. Ke5 Re3+ 12. Kd6 Qf8+ 13. Kc7 Qe7+
14. Kc6 Rc3+ 15. Kb6
(15. Kd5 Qxg5+ 16. Ke6 Qxb5 17. d5 Rd3 18. Kf6 Qxd5
19. Ke7 Rf3 20. Ke8 Qb7 21. Kd8 Rf8#)
15...Qc7+ 16. Ka6 Ra3+ 17. Qa4+ Rxa4+ 18. Kb5 Qc4+
19. Kb6 Rb4+ 20. Ka7 Qa2#)

6...Qg6+ 7. Kf8 Kd2 8. Qg2+ Ke3 9. Qg3+ Kxd4 10. Qf4+ Kd5
11. Qf3+ Ke5 12. Qc3+ Kf5 13. Qc5+ Kg4 14. Qg1+ Kh5
15. Qh2+ Kxg5 16. Qd2+ Kf5 17. Qd3+ Ke5 18. Qb5+ Kf4
19. Qf1+ Ke3 20. Qe1+ Kd3 21. Qf1+ Kc3 22. Qe1+ Kc4
23. Qf1+ Kc5 24. Qc1+ Kb5 25. Qf1+ Kb6 26. Qf2+ Kb7
27. Qf3+ Kc8 28. Qc3+ Rc6 29. Qh3+ Qe6 30. Qxe6+ Rxe6
31. Kg7 Kd7 32. Kf7 Rd6 33. Kf8 Ke6 34. Kg7 Ke7 35. Kh8
Rg6 36. Kh7 Kf7 37. Kh8 Rh6# 0-1

Enjoy,
DC




  
Date: 03 May 2005 19:06:58
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Claus-Jürgen Heigl wrote :
Tablebases, anyone?
At
http://www.chessassistance.com/News/6_man_tbs.html

In our position (7 man) if pawn disappear it is possible to check the
result.

JMR




"Claus-Jürgen Heigl" <[email protected] > a écrit dans le message de
news: [email protected]
> Tantale wrote:
>> 8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 9
>> I think this position is draw. But how to prove it with sentences?
>
> I'm not sure. Tempting is Qh1+ but this could lead to a draw.
>
> 1...Qh1+ 2. Kg7
>
> Any other move loses the queen due to a discovered check by the rook.
>
> 2...Qh5
>
> Black attacks both g5 and f7. Now White can't move king or queen.
>
> 3. d3
>
> At least interrupts Black's control of the sixth rank. White hopes for
> some checks.
>
> A move with either king or queen loses. If the queen moves either f7 or g5
> is undefended. If 3. Kg6 Qg6+ 4. Kh8 Rh3 mates. Also 3. d4 loses to
> 3...Re3 (threat Re7+) 4. Kf6 (4. Qd6 Qxg5+; 4. Kf8 Qh7 5. Qd6 Qh8+ 6. Kf7
> Qe8+ 7. Kg7 (7. Kf6 Rf3+ 8. Kg7 Qf7+ 9. Kh8 Re3 and wins) 7. Kg7 Re7+ 8.
> Kh6 Qh8+ 9. Kg6 Qh7+ 10. Kf6 Qf7 mate) 4...Rg3 5. Qg8 (5. Qe5 loses
> control of f7 5...Rf3+ 6. Ke7 Qf7+ 7. Kd6 Qg6+ 8. Qe6 Qxg5 -+) 5...Qf3+ 6.
> Ke5 (6. Kg5 Rxg5+ 7. Kxg5 Qg3+) 6...Qe3+ attacks both d4 and g5 7. Kf5
> Qxd4 -+
>
> 3...Kd2 4. Qa2+
>
> 4. d4 Kd1 and White is in Zugzwang. The queen has to protect g5 and f7,
> the king has to protect g6. g5 is pinned.
>
> 4...Kxd3 5. Qd5+ Ke3 6. Qe5+ Kf2
>
> The black plan is to secure the king and attack the white king with queen
> and rook.
>
> 7. Qd4+ (7. Qb2+ Kg3 8. Qe5+ Kg4 plan Kxg5 and Kh4) 7...Kg2 8. g6.
>
> Here a win is hard to find. f7 is defended and the black king prone to
> checks.
>
> Interesting is 1...Rh3+ with the plan to force the white king to g6. The
> pawn g5 will be blocked and White has difficulties to defend f7.
>
> 1...Rh3+ 2. Kg7 (2. Kg6 Qb6+ 3. Kf5 doesn't make a difference; 2. Kg8?
> Rg3 -+) 2...Qa7+ 3. Kf6 Qb6+ and now:
>
> a) 4. Kf5 Qf2+ 5. Kg6 (5. Ke6 or Ke5 5...Rg3 and White can't defend g5)
> 5...Qh4 6. Qf5 (6. d4 Qh5+ 7. Kg7 Rg3 8. Kf6 Re3 -+; 6. d3 Qh7+ 7. Kf6
> Rxd3) 6...Kxd2. Since White can't defend f7 with a pawn at g6 he has a lot
> more difficulties to draw.
>
> b) 4. Ke5 Qg6. g5 is blocked and the white king is in the open.
>
> c) 4. Kg7 Qc7+ 5. Kf6 Qf4+ 6. Qf5 (6. Kg6 Qf8 7. d3 Rf3 -/+) 6...Qd4+ 7.
> Kg6 Ra3. Again White has difficulties, for example 8. Qf1+ Kc2 9. Qg2 Qd7+
> 10. Kh6 Rg3 11. Qe4+ Kxd2 12. Qf5 Ke3 13. Qf6 Qd3.
>
> This all is not very clear, but I think Black has some advantage.
> Tablebases, anyone?




   
Date: 04 May 2005 01:48:20
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Tantale wrote:
> Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote :
> Tablebases, anyone?
> At
> http://www.chessassistance.com/News/6_man_tbs.html
>=20
> In our position (7 man) if pawn disappear it is possible to check the=20
> result.

I'm afraid this is not the case. I just entered a possible 6 men=20
position for evaluation at the ChessPlanet site and got a "data not=20
available" response. I think the tablebases for the KQRkqp endgames are=20
not calculated yet. Dr. Hyatt also doesn't have this tablebase.

ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB/33p/

Claus-Juergen


    
Date: 04 May 2005 18:33:49
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
I am afraid I misunderstood an indication. (the 0-1 I saw had nothing to do
with the position)

One have to press on the button just rigtht to the engine's one.

Than two options :
Get evalution of TB
Get variation of TB

But all the 6-man TB are not there and the one D+Q+R vs D+P is not present

I apolozise

JMR

--
http://www.jmrw.com/
J'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui
est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

Pascal (Pensées)




    
Date: 04 May 2005 18:04:32
From: Tantale
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
>I'm afraid this is not the case. I just entered a possible 6 men position
>for evaluation at the ChessPlanet site and got a "data not available"
>response. I think the tablebases for the KQRkqp endgames are not calculated
>yet. Dr. Hyatt also doesn't have this tablebase.

At the adress
http://www.chessassistance.com/News/6_man_tbs.html
I followed the instructions and downloaded a program interface "Chess
Assistant".
Than still following instructions, I entered as as guest, Clicked on
database, than New, than with Shif Ins I pasted a six man postion (in that
case D+Q+R vx D+Q+P)
And instantly I got the result 0-1.

So I think it works.

JMR




 
Date: 03 May 2005 08:43:22
From:
Subject: Re: Theorical draw ?

Tantale wrote:
> 8/7K/8/3Q2P1/8/5r2/3P4/3k2q1 b - - 0 9
> White : Kh7 Qd5 d2 g5
> Black : Kd1 Qg1 Rf3
> Black to play.
>
> I think this position is draw. But how to prove it with sentences?

Interesting. I let Fritz8 analyze it for quite a while. Its
evaluation was about +3.5 in Black's favor, obviously due to the
material imbalance, but it did not see a clear win against best play.