Main
Date: 21 May 2007 00:45:06
From: Sanny
Subject: What games chess players like?
Chess players are fond of Chess Game,

What other Games do Chess Players Like?

A few like

Chinese Checker

Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
brains?

Bye
Sanny





 
Date: 05 Jun 2007 00:47:56
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On Jun 4, 8:17 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> But did he ever show the ability of making fun of himself?

Good question. I must admit that until fairly recently,
I had no idea that so many of the posters here were all
just one person, who apparently was driven to disguise
his true identity (not unlike Superman!) and switch to
a new handle almost daily. Thus, I can't answer on
account of having been fooled for so long. One example
would be the many, many postings I saw relating to a
poster who called him/herself Nick Bourbaki. I can
vaguely recall that JR, under whatever handles he used
at the time, claimed to know NB's "true identity", but did
he ever make jokes poking fun at himself? I cannot
recall, but his high regard for NB may have allowed for
such a thing while still protecting his huge ego; JR
seemed a bit like a toady to NB.


> >> Most of the joke is based on playing Tic-Tac-Toe on GM level, studying
> >> openings for it etc. This game (and its level of complexitiy) is surely
> >> also known in India.
>
> > Really? I doubt that it merits any knowledge
> > outside of the USA,
>
> You could hardly be more wrong. This game is a few centuries older than
> the good old US of A, and it's played by children around the globe.


Wow. This really is a backward planet, then!
I mean, it' not exactly an exciting game, is it?


> > and although I personally
> > believe "Sanny" may be from India,
>
> You don't have to believe it. His full name is Sanjay Sharma and he is
> located in central India.

Interesting. Several years ago, a family moved
here and their surname was also Sharma. The
father watched, the mother never showed up, and
the son and daughter kicked butt on local adults
who carelessly underestimated them.


> > 3) a lot of Indians seem to speak English, albeit
> > with a strong British accent
>
> Not every weird accent is "British"...

Right. There is also Australian, and German (as
in the TV series Hogan's Heroes).


> > Only to those who know offhand that such games
> > are very simple ones, designed for children. I seriously
> > doubt that Sanny would know this, but even if he did,
> > it would not be "obvious" to him, but something learned
> > through research (like draws in chess!).
>
> Well, it seems Mr. Livingston had just more trust in the intelligence
> and knowledge of Sanny than you did. This is a less sarcastic rek
> than it seems. Just imagine Mr. Livingston was indeed new and didn't
> have the experience we had with Sanny, maybe he didn't even realize by
> this posting alone that he might talk to somebody not from a western
> country.


Well, the request asked for games that required
a lot of brains, so how does that accord with a list
of games designed for children? A: not very well.


> >> I never heard of "Old Maid", but due to the rest of the posting
> >> (including praising the also world wide known Rock-Paper-Scissor)
>
> > Again, I doubt the "world-wideness" here; you seem
> > to assume that the culture of the United States is well
> > known universally, but in fact, many people do not
> > speak English and even if they were to see a Hollywood
> > movie, much would remain a mystery. The same applies
> > if this game originated in Europe.
>
> Who tells you that Rock-Paper-Scissor has its origin in the US or
> Europe? Maybe it came several hundred years ago

Egads. Are you suggesting that a game may have
developed hundreds of years ago around the idea
of a rock crushing scissors, when scissors were
presumably not yet invented? How bizarre! Of course,
scissors are for cutting paper (not papaya scrolls!).

Okay, maybe this is worthy of a visit to the world's
ultimate authority on everything: (no, not Ray Keene!)
Wikipedia. [ducks for cover] Of course, some fool
may have written a doctoral thesis on the origin of
Rock-paper-scissors for Oxford.


> - together with our numbers

But not the decimal point!

> and a game called chess - from India, or from North Africa. Or
> co Polo brought it from China.

And Old Maid, too?


> > Ever watch one of
> > those nature specials where they travel the world to
> > photograph wild animals? I never see any of those
> > natives playing *any* western games; they seem very
> > preoccupied with basic survival.
>
> Even if you make no assumptions about is exact location - few things are
> for sure - he is connected to the internet and he is running a software
> company which tries to sell business managing software - so we can
> safely assume that he is not hunting antilopes with bow and arrow in the
> bushes for a living when he is not working on his chess program.

With a population of about one billion people, it
would seem the likelihood of antelopes wandering
around is smallish. Maybe in the remote mountains
of India?

BTW, Sanny does not work on the chess program
himself, but apparently, he directs a team of
programmers (so he tells us) as to what to do. This
is part of the problem, for the result is a waffling
back and forth with little real forward progress.


> It is a
> quite safe assumption, that somebody used to computers, software
> development and internet already grew up with a TV set around.

I don't know about that. One of the newsletters
I get tells about how the cellphone is the equivalent
of a computer in China, because of its affordability.
Even here in the USA, at one time the average
person could not easily afford a TV set, though
he/she could watch one somewhere besides home.

Then there are those religions which repress such
things as evil tools of the devil.


> And this
> implies with high probability that he knows who Lassie, Captain Kirk and
> Godzilla are

Lassie? But that program was in English -- a
language Sanny can barely speak. Now the
other two are watchable without any need to
understand the dialog -- especially Godzilla.


>- and with it some other basics of the global pop culture.

I'm not convinced that what we call "pop culture" is
universal. Many, many people are so impoverished
that they haven't the time or inclination to jump in.
And then there are language barriers, religious
barriers, and so forth. Take for example the game
"Old Maid"; in typical British fashion, the game is
lost by the (aged female) who fails to hook-up by
the end. But in some cultures the game is lost
by the ones who hook-up against the law, resulting
in both parties being stoned to death. Not exactly
"pop culture" over in the West.

-- help bot



  
Date: 05 Jun 2007 12:08:39
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
05.06.2007 09:47, help bot:

>
> Wow. This really is a backward planet, then!
> I mean, it' not exactly an exciting game, is it?

But a very simple one with a very general idea and appeals without any
background to any one alike.

> Well, the request asked for games that required
> a lot of brains, so how does that accord with a list
> of games designed for children? A: not very well.

Yes. A joke.


> Egads. Are you suggesting that a game may have
> developed hundreds of years ago around the idea
> of a rock crushing scissors, when scissors were
> presumably not yet invented?
How bizarre! Of course,
> scissors are for cutting paper (not papaya scrolls!).


You've got a rough idea when paper was invented? Just to give a lower
limit: Gutenberg died more than 500 years ago.

>
> Okay, maybe this is worthy of a visit to the world's
> ultimate authority on everything: (no, not Ray Keene!)
> Wikipedia. [ducks for cover] Of course, some fool
> may have written a doctoral thesis on the origin of
> Rock-paper-scissors for Oxford.

When you checked you will find out, that the age of scissors is indeed
measured in the thousands of years, not hundreds.


>> It is a
>> quite safe assumption, that somebody used to computers, software
>> development and internet already grew up with a TV set around.
>
> I don't know about that. One of the newsletters
> I get tells about how the cellphone is the equivalent
> of a computer in China, because of its affordability.

Where in China? Shanghai? Compared to Shanghai's downtown with their
massive lineup of skyscrapers and concentration of Gucci and Prada
stores Manhattan looks like a sleepy village. And in those Gucci shops
you pay about the same as in any other stores around the globe.

> Even here in the USA, at one time the average
> person could not easily afford a TV set, though
> he/she could watch one somewhere besides home.

That might be true for many people. It is not necessary to have your own
set to get a view on the world outside.


> Lassie? But that program was in English -- a
> language Sanny can barely speak.

You think I in Germany watched Lassie and Star Trek in English as a
child? Dubbing, voice overs, subtitles. According to the technical and
financial possibilities they found different solutions. It was still
easier to buy some old American show than to produce something specific
for a small ket.


> I'm not convinced that what we call "pop culture" is
> universal.

Two years ago I was in a group in Munich playing the national team from
Uganda which was on a visit in Germany. Young people most of them,
students or dropped out of school a year ago, as nobody was paying
tuition any more. Some already traveled around, for many it was the
first leave of their hometown. You would never guess what they wanted to
see with most excitement in Munich: The stadium where Bayern Munich
plays, the local internationally successful soccer team. To my amazement
I found myself with young chess players from Uganda talking about the
newest stars of the German national *soccer* team (although the honestly
preferred the Brazilian team). But when my jaw dropped down was when
they were talking about the fun they had when watching as children on TV
a silly German comedy show from the 70s. I confirmed it several times as
I could not believe it. There was another German children's show they
were talking about I later identified as an East German production,
which has not been broadcasted in the West.

Last year there was a quite popular semi documentary about some nomads
of Mongolia in the cinemas. They were living in the wide plains, riding
on camels for days to the next village - and you could see their
children in one of their huts in front of a tiny portable TV set
watching an American cartoon.

You should be very careful with assumptions about what people share
around this planet, and what not.

> Many, many people are so impoverished
> that they haven't the time or inclination to jump in.

You will find these people in Arkansas and in East Asia. Just because
people in wide parts of the world don't have our standard of living does
not mean, that all they think of is how to get the next sip of water or
piece of bread.

> And then there are language barriers, religious
> barriers, and so forth.

Sure, I don't say the culture is homogeneous on the world. But you
shouldn't assume, that wide parts of the world are completely
disconnected and only an elite crosses the borders. And whatever we
might assume - Sanny definitely belongs to those who crossed this
border, how small his steps were. So - your assumption - or suspicion,
that he does not even know some basic facts about the global village is
not very well rooted.

Greetings,
Ralf




 
Date: 26 May 2007 23:59:00
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 26, 8:21 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 27.05.2007 01:48, help bot:
>
> > Skippy Repa was just kidding
> > around when he suggested Old Maid.
>
> Where did you got the idea that Don Livingston is actually Jason Repa?


First, let me begin by noting that Skippy Repa has
around five hundred different handles here, so the
odds are fairly good that any random post may well
be one of his. Second, although there was no cussin',
fightin', or spittin', the general tone of making fun of
someone who is vulnerable -- here, because Sanny is
not a native speaker of English and seems to have a
certain childlike quality about him -- fits JR to a T.

No, I didn't do any fancy research into the posting's
headers, as others might in their quest to uncover
the "secret identity" of Dr. Livingston. And yes, I could
well be wrong. I could also be wrong about another
mysterious poster, one Rob Mitchell, who *invariably*
takes turns with Phil Innes, much like Superman and
Clark Kent. A more obsessive person might do a
study, comparing posting habits to determine if these
two have ever been active at exactly the same time, for
instance. That's not my style.


> This post would be completely untypical for him (Mostly untypical:
> irony, not a single curse, giving his Elo ratings as below 1000).

I myself noted the absence of cursing in my earlier
post. This proves nothing, for the Repa creature has
DEMON-strated an ability to hold itself back from
cursing before -- but never for very long if it is provoked!
(Usually, one provocation is more than sufficient.)


> > I think
> > it's not really sporting to poke fun like that when
> > you know that Sanny barely understands English.
>
> Most of the joke is based on playing Tic-Tac-Toe on GM level, studying
> openings for it etc. This game (and its level of complexitiy) is surely
> also known in India.

Really? I doubt that it merits any knowledge
outside of the USA, and although I personally
believe "Sanny" may be from India, he may
well be from somewhere else; nobody asks,
they only ridicule. I picked India because:

1) the odds look good since it has so many people!
2) the name seems (to me) to fit India
3) a lot of Indians seem to speak English, albeit
with a strong British accent

But what about Pakistan, Sri Lanka, or the Arab
states?


> So it's not playing around with cultural
> differences.

I agree on that point. To me, the joke looked
like it was an inside one, poking fun at someone
(in the open) who was not supposed to "get it".


> That the rest of the recommendations are nonsense should be
> obvious.

Only to those who know offhand that such games
are very simple ones, designed for children. I seriously
doubt that Sanny would know this, but even if he did,
it would not be "obvious" to him, but something learned
through research (like draws in chess!).


> I never heard of "Old Maid", but due to the rest of the posting
> (including praising the also world wide known Rock-Paper-Scissor)

Again, I doubt the "world-wideness" here; you seem
to assume that the culture of the United States is well
known universally, but in fact, many people do not
speak English and even if they were to see a Hollywood
movie, much would remain a mystery. The same applies
if this game originated in Europe. Ever watch one of
those nature specials where they travel the world to
photograph wild animals? I never see any of those
natives playing *any* western games; they seem very
preoccupied with basic survival. One famous chess
writer played in Japan, and instantly became their
national champion because western games were not
popular there!


> I assumed it's just a casual game with low degree of difficulty.

Not merely a low degree of difficulty, for that would
apply to checkers as well. Old Maid and so forth
are specifically sold as *children's* games.

I personally, interpreted Sanny's question as most
likely relating to his Web site redesign. What sort
of games might he add in addition to chess? From
this perspective, suggestions such as Risk or Stratego
are useless, for they are not in the public domain.
That leaves such games as checkers, and probably
several popular card games which have been around
for a long time, games such as poker and blackjack.

-- help bot



  
Date: 05 Jun 2007 02:17:35
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
27.05.2007 08:59, help bot:

> I myself noted the absence of cursing in my earlier
> post. This proves nothing, for the Repa creature has
> DEMON-strated an ability to hold itself back from
> cursing before -- but never for very long if it is provoked!
> (Usually, one provocation is more than sufficient.)

But did he ever show the ability of making fun of himself?


>> Most of the joke is based on playing Tic-Tac-Toe on GM level, studying
>> openings for it etc. This game (and its level of complexitiy) is surely
>> also known in India.
>
> Really? I doubt that it merits any knowledge
> outside of the USA,

You could hardly be more wrong. This game is a few centuries older than
the good old US of A, and it's played by children around the globe.

and although I personally
> believe "Sanny" may be from India,

You don't have to believe it. His full name is Sanjay Sharma and he is
located in central India.

> 3) a lot of Indians seem to speak English, albeit
> with a strong British accent

Not every weird accent is "British"...


> Only to those who know offhand that such games
> are very simple ones, designed for children. I seriously
> doubt that Sanny would know this, but even if he did,
> it would not be "obvious" to him, but something learned
> through research (like draws in chess!).

Well, it seems Mr. Livingston had just more trust in the intelligence
and knowledge of Sanny than you did. This is a less sarcastic rek
than it seems. Just imagine Mr. Livingston was indeed new and didn't
have the experience we had with Sanny, maybe he didn't even realize by
this posting alone that he might talk to somebody not from a western
country.


>> I never heard of "Old Maid", but due to the rest of the posting
>> (including praising the also world wide known Rock-Paper-Scissor)
>
> Again, I doubt the "world-wideness" here; you seem
> to assume that the culture of the United States is well
> known universally, but in fact, many people do not
> speak English and even if they were to see a Hollywood
> movie, much would remain a mystery. The same applies
> if this game originated in Europe.


Who tells you that Rock-Paper-Scissor has its origin in the US or
Europe? Maybe it came several hundred years ago - together with our
numbers and a game called chess - from India, or from North Africa. Or
co Polo brought it from China.


Ever watch one of
> those nature specials where they travel the world to
> photograph wild animals? I never see any of those
> natives playing *any* western games; they seem very
> preoccupied with basic survival.

Even if you make no assumptions about is exact location - few things are
for sure - he is connected to the internet and he is running a software
company which tries to sell business managing software - so we can
safely assume that he is not hunting antilopes with bow and arrow in the
bushes for a living when he is not working on his chess program. It is a
quite safe assumption, that somebody used to computers, software
development and internet already grew up with a TV set around. And this
implies with high probability that he knows who Lassie, Captain Kirk and
Godzilla are - and with it some other basics of the global pop culture.

Greetings,
Ralf


   
Date: 05 Jun 2007 01:25:44
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: What Games Chess Players Like?
Chess...

There Are No Substitutes.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas




  
Date: 27 May 2007 07:59:47
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On 26 May 2007 23:59:00 -0700, help bot <[email protected] >
wrote:


>> I assumed it's just a casual game with low degree of difficulty.

> Not merely a low degree of difficulty, for that would
>apply to checkers as well.

What? Unless the bot has been radically reprogrammed, I suspect that
after a year or so of diligent study, he'd still contract a serious
case of whup-ass upon challenging a checker master.


 
Date: 26 May 2007 16:48:19
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 26, 10:08 am, Patrick Volk <[email protected] > wrote:

> > As for "predating" the world wide web, I suppose if
> >the anchor predated the aircraft carrier, that means
> >that none of our ships have any way to stay in position
> >now. I mean, it's not as if something more ancient can
> >be incorporated into something new... .
>
> Your analogy implies that usenet needs the web to survive.

Nonsense. An aircraft carrier does not "need" an
anchor. It only uses one because nobody has had
any need to invent some other way to hold a ship
in place. That's because, as crude as it may be, an
anchor *works* just the same. (I would prefer an
electromagnet which latches onto the core of the
Earth, and holds the ship fast using the GPS. It is
quite obvious that an anchor and chain are bulky and
heavy, and they don't exactly enhance a ships looks,
either. Add to this their tendency to rust, the
considerable room required to store them, and a
limited breaking strength -- but enough about
anchors already.)


> And you definitely have the AOL'ers perspective on things. You can't
> help but associate usenet with the web and Google. Why? Because that's
> all you know.

Ridiculous. I also know how to play chess, drive
a car, operate a computer, and type. Contrast
that to a typical AOLer, who can't even figure out
that he is overpaying for his internet service!


> Google does play an important role though in usenet. It provides the
> memory for usenet. You can go back 15+ years, where most other
> internet stuff (www, irc, ftp) doesn't have that.

That's not "memory"; that's archiving. Are you
sure you're not an AOLer?


> > So, maybe you wanna get technical, eh? In that
> >case, prepare to get fired upon for not capitalizing
> >the word "Web" (the lower-case spelling surely refers
> >to the silken creation of a spider). I have you now!
> >:>D
>
> LOL... Lessee then you should capitalize it when you're looking for
> web pages... HTTP://WWW.GOOGLE.COM

No. Right now I am typing this post and the address
bar shows *everything* in lower case letters.

What I meant was that in your text, you ought
to capitalize the word "Web", just as you would
capitalize words like "December" and "English".
It's because what you refer to is a very specific
thing, not a generic "web" like what you get
tangled up in when first you lie, or if you're a
small insect. Sort of like when you refer to the
company, you would capitalize "Google", but if
you use it as a verb -- as in "google the world's
foremost expert on chess" -- there is no need; in
fact, capitalizing a verb could lead to confusion.

---

Oh, and one more thing: the game players like
GMs Lasker and friends liked best of all was
probably whist. Skippy Repa was just kidding
around when he suggested Old Maid. I think
it's not really sporting to poke fun like that when
you know that Sanny barely understands English.
I mean, how would Skip like it if he were to leave
Winterpeg and move to India, where the locals
then get him to eat bat guano by telling him it's
the local food? Very unsporting indeed. But then,
we should make some allowance for Skip's low IQ.

-- help bot








  
Date: 27 May 2007 02:21:24
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
27.05.2007 01:48, help bot:
> Skippy Repa was just kidding
> around when he suggested Old Maid.

Where did you got the idea that Don Livingston is actually Jason Repa?
This post would be completely untypical for him (Mostly untypical:
irony, not a single curse, giving his Elo ratings as below 1000).

> I think
> it's not really sporting to poke fun like that when
> you know that Sanny barely understands English.

Most of the joke is based on playing Tic-Tac-Toe on GM level, studying
openings for it etc. This game (and its level of complexitiy) is surely
also known in India. So it's not playing around with cultural
differences. That the rest of the recommendations are nonsense should be
obvious. I never heard of "Old Maid", but due to the rest of the posting
(including praising the also world wide known Rock-Paper-Scissor) I
assumed it's just a casual game with low degree of difficulty.

Greetings,
Ralf


 
Date: 25 May 2007 02:39:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 24, 12:51 am, Patrick Volk <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 22 May 2007 22:26:43 -0700, help bot <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On May 21, 10:22 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Why don't you look on the web?
>
> > Um, this *is* the Web. (I get here via www.google.com,
> >where the "www" stands for "World Wide Web".)
>
> This is not the web... This is usenet. Google is to newsgroups like
> AOL is to the WWW (and it shows sometimes...). Usenet predates the
> www.

I just did a google search on "usenet and the world wide web"
to see what came up. The very first hit led me to
"livinginternet.com"
where I quickly ran across this comment:

"The Usenet is an especially useful place to search for the answer
to
a question, since so many questions are asked and answered there."

As can be seen above, the attack on Sanny for asking his
question here is a bit silly, except insofar as this: he would
get an immediate answer by doing a google search, instead
of having to *wait* for a response here. But as this is a game
newsgroup, perhaps he reasoned (I know that's a stretch!)
that we were sort of experts on the subject of games.

On the other issue, I don't see Google as being the
equivalent of AOL for several reasons. 1) AOL has to
be the worst ISP I have ever tried, whereas Google is
like Ace Ventura: the best there is. 2) Google takes
me where I want to go on the internet and drops me off,
whereas AOL wouldn't let me break free to save my life;
it's a bit like that old Eagles song, Hotel California: you
can check out any time you like, but you can never
leave (AOL). And I don't mean just their software,
either!

As for "predating" the world wide web, I suppose if
the anchor predated the aircraft carrier, that means
that none of our ships have any way to stay in position
now. I mean, it's not as if something more ancient can
be incorporated into something new... .

So, maybe you wanna get technical, eh? In that
case, prepare to get fired upon for not capitalizing
the word "Web" (the lower-case spelling surely refers
to the silken creation of a spider). I have you now!
: >D

-- help bot







  
Date: 26 May 2007 10:08:45
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On 25 May 2007 02:39:30 -0700, help bot <[email protected] >
wrote:

>On May 24, 12:51 am, Patrick Volk <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 22 May 2007 22:26:43 -0700, help bot <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On May 21, 10:22 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> Why don't you look on the web?
>>
>> > Um, this *is* the Web. (I get here via www.google.com,
>> >where the "www" stands for "World Wide Web".)
>>
>> This is not the web... This is usenet. Google is to newsgroups like
>> AOL is to the WWW (and it shows sometimes...). Usenet predates the
>> www.
>
> I just did a google search on "usenet and the world wide web"
>to see what came up. The very first hit led me to
>"livinginternet.com"
>where I quickly ran across this comment:
>
> "The Usenet is an especially useful place to search for the answer
>to
>a question, since so many questions are asked and answered there."
>
> As can be seen above, the attack on Sanny for asking his
>question here is a bit silly, except insofar as this: he would
>get an immediate answer by doing a google search, instead
>of having to *wait* for a response here. But as this is a game
>newsgroup, perhaps he reasoned (I know that's a stretch!)
>that we were sort of experts on the subject of games.

Look at his original request... or demand. Let's just say he's not a
people person.

>
> On the other issue, I don't see Google as being the
>equivalent of AOL for several reasons. 1) AOL has to
>be the worst ISP I have ever tried, whereas Google is
>like Ace Ventura: the best there is. 2) Google takes
>me where I want to go on the internet and drops me off,
>whereas AOL wouldn't let me break free to save my life;
>it's a bit like that old Eagles song, Hotel California: you
>can check out any time you like, but you can never
>leave (AOL). And I don't mean just their software,
>either!

Google is more like AOL than you know. AOL'ers tend to defend their
choice... Why?

Because that's all they know there is.

>
> As for "predating" the world wide web, I suppose if
>the anchor predated the aircraft carrier, that means
>that none of our ships have any way to stay in position
>now. I mean, it's not as if something more ancient can
>be incorporated into something new... .

Your analogy implies that usenet needs the web to survive. So not
true! It was doing just fine before the web came along. The web is
broad and esoteric to me. Usenet is narrower in scope, but much
deeper. On the surface, it makes it less fun.

And you definitely have the AOL'ers perspective on things. You can't
help but associate usenet with the web and Google. Why? Because that's
all you know.

Google does play an important role though in usenet. It provides the
memory for usenet. You can go back 15+ years, where most other
internet stuff (www, irc, ftp) doesn't have that.


>
> So, maybe you wanna get technical, eh? In that
>case, prepare to get fired upon for not capitalizing
>the word "Web" (the lower-case spelling surely refers
>to the silken creation of a spider). I have you now!
>:>D

LOL... Lessee then you should capitalize it when you're looking for
web pages... HTTP://WWW.GOOGLE.COM

But it's not like AOL... how? ;D

Pat




>
> -- help bot
>
>
>
>


 
Date: 22 May 2007 22:42:58
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 22, 11:53 am, Don <[email protected] > wrote:

> Wow. What a sad and bizaare reaction to some harmless kidding with
> Sanny. Is he your gay lover or something?

Skip is a bit touchy about his, um, 10% gayness.
He prefers it if people would just try to focus on the
other 90% of him (which, he tells us, is straight).

But the real problem is that because of his low IQ
and inability to get along with the other kids, he has
developed a decided tendency to lash out at others
who, like him, appear simple or childlike in the
content of their postings here.

Unfortunately, the psychological problems run so
deep that Skip will often simultaneously attack
others for posting under a pseudonym, while doing
precisely the same thing himself in the attacking
post! Yowie.

---

As for Sanny, he's a cool guy, but he just can't
seem to stop lying about his world famous Web site
and chess program. My prescription is sodium
pentathol, since nearly everything else has already
been tried, unsuccessfully.

-- doc bot



 
Date: 22 May 2007 22:26:43
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 21, 10:22 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected] > wrote:

> Why don't you look on the web?

Um, this *is* the Web. (I get here via www.google.com,
where the "www" stands for "World Wide Web".)


> Me personally, I like
>
> Bowling (same Zen as darts, but more physical)

I hate bowling because, as in golf, the ball never
goes where I (quite obviously) aimed it. In chess,
the pieces nearly always land where I aim.


> 500 bid (my family's first game, chess is second)
> Euchre

I used to like this one.

-- help bot



  
Date: 24 May 2007 00:51:31
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On 22 May 2007 22:26:43 -0700, help bot <[email protected] >
wrote:

>On May 21, 10:22 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Why don't you look on the web?
>
> Um, this *is* the Web. (I get here via www.google.com,
>where the "www" stands for "World Wide Web".)
>

This is not the web... This is usenet. Google is to newsgroups like
AOL is to the WWW (and it shows sometimes...). Usenet predates the
www.


>
>> Me personally, I like
>>
>> Bowling (same Zen as darts, but more physical)
>
> I hate bowling because, as in golf, the ball never
>goes where I (quite obviously) aimed it. In chess,
>the pieces nearly always land where I aim.



>
>
>> 500 bid (my family's first game, chess is second)
>> Euchre
>
> I used to like this one.
>
> -- help bot


 
Date: 22 May 2007 08:53:54
From: Don
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 21, 6:50 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On May 21, 5:11 pm, Don <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 21, 2:45 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Chess players are fond of Chess Game,
>
> > > What other Games do Chess Players Like?
>
> > > A few like
>
> > > Chinese Checker
>
> > > Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
> > > makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
> > > brains?
>
> > > Bye
> > > Sanny
>
> > Hi Sanny,
>
> > I'm new here, but since I have lots of brains and like playing games
> > that require lots of brains, I thought I'd chime in on this one. The
> > one game I've always found to be as challenging as chess is Tic-Tac-
> > Toe (T3). I sometimes spend hours pondering my next move. I've read
> > many books on T3 theory (including books on T3 openinings, middle and
> > end games) and I've studied under some of the great Polish masters. I
> > believe I read somewhere that T3 is third only to Chess and Rock-Paper-
> > Scissors (RPS) as the most written about game, so there would be
> > plenty or resources for you to draw from. Having seen your chess
> > website, I think you and your programming team could probably pull off
> > putting together a good T3 game. If you would decide to try to tackle
> > either T3 or RPS, I'm a GM in each, so let me know if you need someone
> > to test them out.
>
> > Another couple of games that I'm fond of are card strategy games. One
> > is called Old Maid and the other Go Fish. They also need lots of
> > brains to play properly.
>
> > Hope this helps,
> > Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815
>
> Hello again, Skippy. Been a while since you
> went away. Glad to see that your old temper
> tantrum problem is now under control. Too bad
> they can't do something about your low IQ with
> prescription drugs, though.
>
> I didn't realize you were a GM at tic-tac-toe --
> very impressive! Of course, this shoots a hole
> right through my theory that an idiot savant can
> become expert at (just) one game through
> practice. Now that you are known to be a major
> talent in yet another game, it's back to the old
> drawing board for me.
>
> -- coach- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wow. What a sad and bizaare reaction to some harmless kidding with
Sanny. Is he your gay lover or something?



 
Date: 21 May 2007 16:50:31
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 21, 5:11 pm, Don <[email protected] > wrote:
> On May 21, 2:45 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Chess players are fond of Chess Game,
>
> > What other Games do Chess Players Like?
>
> > A few like
>
> > Chinese Checker
>
> > Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
> > makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
> > brains?
>
> > Bye
> > Sanny
>
> Hi Sanny,
>
> I'm new here, but since I have lots of brains and like playing games
> that require lots of brains, I thought I'd chime in on this one. The
> one game I've always found to be as challenging as chess is Tic-Tac-
> Toe (T3). I sometimes spend hours pondering my next move. I've read
> many books on T3 theory (including books on T3 openinings, middle and
> end games) and I've studied under some of the great Polish masters. I
> believe I read somewhere that T3 is third only to Chess and Rock-Paper-
> Scissors (RPS) as the most written about game, so there would be
> plenty or resources for you to draw from. Having seen your chess
> website, I think you and your programming team could probably pull off
> putting together a good T3 game. If you would decide to try to tackle
> either T3 or RPS, I'm a GM in each, so let me know if you need someone
> to test them out.
>
> Another couple of games that I'm fond of are card strategy games. One
> is called Old Maid and the other Go Fish. They also need lots of
> brains to play properly.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815

Hello again, Skippy. Been a while since you
went away. Glad to see that your old temper
tantrum problem is now under control. Too bad
they can't do something about your low IQ with
prescription drugs, though.

I didn't realize you were a GM at tic-tac-toe --
very impressive! Of course, this shoots a hole
right through my theory that an idiot savant can
become expert at (just) one game through
practice. Now that you are known to be a major
talent in yet another game, it's back to the old
drawing board for me.

-- coach



  
Date: 23 May 2007 03:50:28
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
22.05.2007 01:50, help bot:

>> Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815
>
> Hello again, Skippy.

You actually regard it as possible that he would be able to come up with
some self-deprecating jokes?

Greetings,
Ralf


 
Date: 21 May 2007 14:11:47
From: Don
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 21, 2:45 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Chess players are fond of Chess Game,
>
> What other Games do Chess Players Like?
>
> A few like
>
> Chinese Checker
>
> Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
> makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
> brains?
>
> Bye
> Sanny

Hi Sanny,

I'm new here, but since I have lots of brains and like playing games
that require lots of brains, I thought I'd chime in on this one. The
one game I've always found to be as challenging as chess is Tic-Tac-
Toe (T3). I sometimes spend hours pondering my next move. I've read
many books on T3 theory (including books on T3 openinings, middle and
end games) and I've studied under some of the great Polish masters. I
believe I read somewhere that T3 is third only to Chess and Rock-Paper-
Scissors (RPS) as the most written about game, so there would be
plenty or resources for you to draw from. Having seen your chess
website, I think you and your programming team could probably pull off
putting together a good T3 game. If you would decide to try to tackle
either T3 or RPS, I'm a GM in each, so let me know if you need someone
to test them out.

Another couple of games that I'm fond of are card strategy games. One
is called Old Maid and the other Go Fish. They also need lots of
brains to play properly.

Hope this helps,
Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815



  
Date: 28 May 2007 00:15:23
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 28, 1:36 am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:

> I fully expect that were I given sufficient motivation and
> a reasonable amount of time, I would become one of
> these "masters" of checkers with little difficulty. But
> this will not happen because if anything, I would want
> to move *up* to a game more interesting than chess,
> not down toward Tic-tac-toe! And I detest the idea of
> memorization of correct moves by rote.


BTW, I just played a game of checkers against a
computer program on the Web. At the bottom of the
page, a brief, simple but *fairly* complete explanation
of the rules was given, which took me all of one minute
to read. The program's default level was 6 plys, and
the game ended (so to speak) in an infinite repetition
of position, since the designer made the same mistake
as Sanny in not allowing for draws. This program
tried very hard to make exchanges whenever possible,
and I cooperated in hopes of avoiding an embarrassing
quadruple-jump loss! Clearly, although a certain level
of strategy is required to do well, it was sufficient for
me to selectively calculate a single full-move ahead in
order to draw a computer where, presumably, neither
of us has any openings knowledge whatever.

Now imagine a checkers player going to some chess
Web site and facing off against it at six plys. Instead
of merely calculating captures one full-move ahead, he
would also need to constantly monitor the "safety" of
both Kings, and who knows how many other factors
just in order to survive. That's with no book, and even
a simplistic program which ignores positional factors.
And the rules section at the bottom of the page? It
would need to explain how each different man moves,
including en passant, check, captures, and so forth.

In commercial chess programs, instead of merely
reducing the depth of search it is also necessary to
cause the program to occasionally hang pieces in
order to put things on a more even keel when facing
weaker players. In fact, I have considerable first-
hand experience playing weak players on the net,
and even when we go out of book extremely early
and the position is quite unfamiliar, I always have
to consider "positional judgment" factors before
eating the free stuff. No so with checkers, for as
the rules were clearly stated on that Web site,
captures are *obligatory*. The more I look at it,
the more it looks like a relatively *simple* game,
even if checkers masters do have specialized
openings knowledge just as with chess.

-- help bot




  
Date: 27 May 2007 22:36:25
From: help bot
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On May 27, 10:59 am, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 26 May 2007 23:59:00 -0700, help bot <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >> I assumed it's just a casual game with low degree of difficulty.
> > Not merely a low degree of difficulty, for that would
> >apply to checkers as well.
>
> What? Unless the bot has been radically reprogrammed, I suspect that
> after a year or so of diligent study, he'd still contract a serious
> case of whup-ass upon challenging a checker master.

Look, there is a huge difference between being able
to take on a checkers master and simply determining
whether or not checkers is a simple or a complex game.

From what I have read, these masters have often
memorized a great deal of openings theory, and thus
they can play the opening phase almost by rote. This
is much like chess, except that with chess, even the
*grand*masters will sometimes disagree as to who is
winning, or even whether a given position is a draw.
In chess, before the advent of strong computers, many
false evaluations were published as established "fact".

Chess is more complex in many ways, including the
fact that all 64 squares are utilized instead of only 32,
and the fact that in checkers there are only two types
of men, vs. chess which has K, Q, R, B, N, and p, each
of which moves differently and some of which have
*special rules* governing their legal moves; rules like
en passant, castling, and check.

The truth is, the only problem I have ever experienced
when playing checkers against another amateur like
myself, is one single game where one of us was found to
be "stalemated", so to speak. Neither of us had a clue
what the governing rule was when there was no legal
move. This game is simple enough to teach a child in
short order (and the priy issue of contention might
be whose turn it is to move if they fail to pay attention).

Compare and contrast to chess, where even when
facing experienced adult players who claim to be
quite skilled, there has arisen a number of problems.
One example was a fellow who claimed there was no
such thing as en passant, saying he and his dad
played chess for many years, and in another game
I happened to win (IMO), he claimed that a newly
promoted pawn had no checking power until *after*
he made his reply!

Moving on to tournament play between experienced
competitors, even expert players can disagree as to
the technicalities of the rules, whether time or position
takes precedence, the laws of castling, and so on. It
is a vastly more complex game in this respect, as any
experienced scholastic TD can relate. In many cases
where children are playing one another, both players
will be found to be in check at the same time, one or
more of them having castled through or out of check,
and so on and so forth. Complex. And although
cheap plastic sets with small red and black boards
are sold as if just for children, the truth is they are
just shifting wood, not playing legal chess. I see no
reason why young children cannot play a legal game
of checkers, as that game is far simpler.

---

The joke on Sanny consisted in pretending to make
a serious response, which nonetheless incorporated
only games specifically sold for children. Having seen
Sanny's old Web site, I happen to know that his
priy product for sale was business oriented. How
many businesses are owned and operated by children?

---

But what about "degree of difficulty"? Once again, if
you can get beyond the master's memorization of rote
moves, it boils down to accurately calculating the effects
of the relatively few legal moves, since every unpromoted
man is identical (except for color). There really is no
comparison to chess or other more complex games.

I fully expect that were I given sufficient motivation and
a reasonable amount of time, I would become one of
these "masters" of checkers with little difficulty. But
this will not happen because if anything, I would want
to move *up* to a game more interesting than chess,
not down toward Tic-tac-toe! And I detest the idea of
memorization of correct moves by rote.

-- help bot








  
Date: 23 May 2007 08:09:29
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?

"Don" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On May 21, 2:45 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Chess players are fond of Chess Game,
>>
>> What other Games do Chess Players Like?
>>
>> A few like
>>
>> Chinese Checker
>>
>> Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
>> makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
>> brains?
>>
>> Bye
>> Sanny
>
> Hi Sanny,
>
> I'm new here, but since I have lots of brains and like playing games
> that require lots of brains, I thought I'd chime in on this one. The
> one game I've always found to be as challenging as chess is Tic-Tac-
> Toe (T3). I sometimes spend hours pondering my next move. I've read
> many books on T3 theory (including books on T3 openinings, middle and
> end games) and I've studied under some of the great Polish masters. I
> believe I read somewhere that T3 is third only to Chess and Rock-Paper-
> Scissors (RPS) as the most written about game, so there would be
> plenty or resources for you to draw from. Having seen your chess
> website, I think you and your programming team could probably pull off
> putting together a good T3 game. If you would decide to try to tackle
> either T3 or RPS, I'm a GM in each, so let me know if you need someone
> to test them out.
>
> Another couple of games that I'm fond of are card strategy games. One
> is called Old Maid and the other Go Fish. They also need lots of
> brains to play properly.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815

ROFL!
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
>




  
Date: 21 May 2007 22:22:37
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On 21 May 2007 14:11:47 -0700, Don <[email protected] > wrote:

>On May 21, 2:45 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Chess players are fond of Chess Game,
>>
>> What other Games do Chess Players Like?
>>
>> A few like
>>
>> Chinese Checker
>>
>> Can I get a list of all strategy games simmilar to chess where one
>> makes move and wait for opponent to make move. And needs lot of
>> brains?

Why don't you look on the web?

Me personally, I like

Bowling (same Zen as darts, but more physical)
500 bid (my family's first game, chess is second)
Euchre
Scrabble (Third game)
Cribbage
Backgammon

Bang!
Boomtown
For Sale




>>
>> Bye
>> Sanny
>
>Hi Sanny,
>
>I'm new here, but since I have lots of brains and like playing games
>that require lots of brains, I thought I'd chime in on this one. The
>one game I've always found to be as challenging as chess is Tic-Tac-
>Toe (T3). I sometimes spend hours pondering my next move. I've read
>many books on T3 theory (including books on T3 openinings, middle and
>end games) and I've studied under some of the great Polish masters. I
>believe I read somewhere that T3 is third only to Chess and Rock-Paper-
>Scissors (RPS) as the most written about game, so there would be
>plenty or resources for you to draw from. Having seen your chess
>website, I think you and your programming team could probably pull off
>putting together a good T3 game. If you would decide to try to tackle
>either T3 or RPS, I'm a GM in each, so let me know if you need someone
>to test them out.
>
>Another couple of games that I'm fond of are card strategy games. One
>is called Old Maid and the other Go Fish. They also need lots of
>brains to play properly.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Don "Cats" Livingstone, T3 GM, RPS GM, ELO 815





   
Date: 22 May 2007 09:11:08
From: ebankgame
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?

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ebankgame


 
Date: 21 May 2007 04:21:06
From:
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?
On 21 May, 08:45, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> What other Games do Chess Players Like?
Texas Hold'em Poker



  
Date: 21 May 2007 16:36:58
From: GREG NIEMI
Subject: Re: What games chess players like?

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 21 May, 08:45, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What other Games do Chess Players Like?
> Texas Hold'em Poker
Omaha Hi-Lo poker
>