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Date: 27 Dec 2004 13:37:04
From:
Subject: Why did I lose from this position?
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I recently purchased the new book by Gary Lane from Batsford Press
called "Find the Winning Move". This book contains a series of
positions from actual games (400 in all) and you're asked to solve the
positions. The different twist is that these aren't two move mates.
Sometimes they're simply positions where you can pick up a piece
though a clever combination...if you can find them.
Well, it's a good book for training for tactics as I'm testing myself
alongside the problems in the book. However, I'm finding that the
author hasn't fully realized that the positions he chose don't
necessarily mean it's winning for White or Black!
Here's a case in point. Here's a FEN position from a game he chose to
include in the puzzle section.
r4rk1/pp2pp2/3p2p1/6Rn/2bqPP1P/2NB4/PPPQ4/2K4R w - - 0 1
In case you're wondering it's a game played between Carr-Heal 2001 in
Boston. It's the first puzzle of the book. Now, in the FEN position,
Gary Lane claims a move can be found that allows White to pick up a
piece outright. And...he's right. Unfortunately, the "winning" trick
didn't guarantee me a win against the computer! I decided to play this
position against Shredder 8 as White and below is the result.
Interesting to say the least. I tried my best to take advantage of
winning that extra piece...but still ended up with...well, below is
the game that followed:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2004.12.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Shredder 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/pp2pp2/3p2p1/6Rn/2bqPP1P/2NB4/PPPQ4/2K4R w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "50"]
1. Ne2 Qh8 2. Bxc4 Rfc8 3. Qd5 e6 4. Rxg6+ fxg6 5. Qxe6+ Kh7 6. Rg1
Qe8 7. Qd5 Qe7 8. f5 Rc5 9. fxg6+ Kh8 10. Qd4+ Qg7 11. Qd3 a5 12. a4
Rac8 13. Bb3 Re5 14. Bf7 Qf6 15. Qh3 Rec5 16. Nc3 Kg7 17. Rf1 Qe5 18.
Qd7 R8c7 19. Qg4 Rxc3 20. bxc3 Qxc3 21. Kb1 Qxc2+ 22. Ka1 Qc3+ 23. Ka2
Qd2+ 24. Ka1 Rc2 25. Kb1 Qc3 0-1
So please, tell me...what is wrong with my chess playing and what can
I do to improve on this?
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Date: 28 Dec 2004 16:53:25
From: Andreas Walkenhorst
Subject: Re: Why did I lose from this position?
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On 27 Dec 2004 13:37:04 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]
>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "2004.12.23"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Alberich"]
>[Black "Shredder 8"]
>[Result "0-1"]
>[SetUp "1"]
>[FEN "r4rk1/pp2pp2/3p2p1/6Rn/2bqPP1P/2NB4/PPPQ4/2K4R w - - 0 1"]
>[PlyCount "50"]
>
>1. Ne2 Qh8 2. Bxc4 Rfc8 3. Qd5 e6 4. Rxg6+ fxg6 5. Qxe6+ Kh7 6. Rg1
>Qe8 7. Qd5 Qe7 8. f5 Rc5 9. fxg6+ Kh8 10. Qd4+ Qg7 11. Qd3 a5 12. a4
>Rac8 13. Bb3 Re5 14. Bf7 Qf6 15. Qh3 Rec5 16. Nc3 Kg7 17. Rf1 Qe5 18.
>Qd7 R8c7 19. Qg4 Rxc3 20. bxc3 Qxc3 21. Kb1 Qxc2+ 22. Ka1 Qc3+ 23. Ka2
>Qd2+ 24. Ka1 Rc2 25. Kb1 Qc3 0-1
>
>
>So please, tell me...what is wrong with my chess playing and what can
>I do to improve on this?
Just some ideas after a short look:
first of all: stop relying on tactics! This whole game IMHO is very
typical for people who can't stop looking for traps and combinations.
I had the impression that you were just moving around the pieces
threatening this and that, but behind all that was no plan, no target.
After Bxc4 the position is completely won. So why not just converting
it instead of sacking pieces?
3.Qd5 ... why not just simply Bd3 (idea f4-f5; which IMHO is the
winning idea here if you look at the pawn structure) or Bb3
4.Rg6 (this can only be done if everything is checked IMHO; So who is
able to do that, if his name is not Garry ...)
11.Qd3 Material is about equal after the exchange of queens, but I
think that with a draw in hands white can play for a win (11.Qxg7 Kxg7
12.Bd5 Rb8 13.Rg5 Nf6 14.Nd4 ; 11...Nxg7 12.Bd5 Rb8 13.Nf4 looks even
worse)
All in all IMHO you should buy some material about positional chess,
planning, pawn-structures etc. All this tactical stuff may be helpful
for beginners / youngsters, but it defines a border that you can never
cross: If you can't "cheat" your opponent with a sacrifice, you'll
lose.
but who am I to give advices <g >
Andreas
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Date: 28 Dec 2004 12:05:35
From: Henri H. Arsenault
Subject: Re: Why did I lose from this position?
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On 27 Dec 2004 13:37:04 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>So please, tell me...what is wrong with my chess playing and what can
>I do to improve on this?
Get Chess Tactics Art 3.0 from Convekta, it has thousands of
positions, and I have yet to find a mistake in the positions, except
for once or twice when an alternate winning move was overlooked.
I have had the program for a couple of months and I have yet to go
through all the positions. I have lots of chess software and books,
but for tactical training, this is by far the best and most fun.I
think there is a demo.
Henri
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Date: 27 Dec 2004 16:09:33
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Why did I lose from this position?
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In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
> [Event "?"]
> [Site "?"]
> [Date "2004.12.23"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "Alberich"]
> [Black "Shredder 8"]
> [Result "0-1"]
> [SetUp "1"]
> [FEN "r4rk1/pp2pp2/3p2p1/6Rn/2bqPP1P/2NB4/PPPQ4/2K4R w - - 0 1"]
> [PlyCount "50"]
>
> 1. Ne2 Qh8 2. Bxc4 Rfc8 3. Qd5 e6 4. Rxg6+ fxg6 5. Qxe6+ Kh7 6. Rg1
> Qe8 7. Qd5 Qe7 8. f5 Rc5 9. fxg6+ Kh8 10. Qd4+ Qg7 11. Qd3 a5 12. a4
> Rac8 13. Bb3 Re5 14. Bf7 Qf6 15. Qh3 Rec5 16. Nc3 Kg7 17. Rf1 Qe5 18.
> Qd7 R8c7 19. Qg4 Rxc3 20. bxc3 Qxc3 21. Kb1 Qxc2+ 22. Ka1 Qc3+ 23. Ka2
> Qd2+ 24. Ka1 Rc2 25. Kb1 Qc3 0-1
>
>
> So please, tell me...what is wrong with my chess playing and what can
> I do to improve on this?
Well, why'd you sacrifice the rook?
There are far stronger players on RGCA than me, and maybe they'll
disagree with me, but to me it looks like you threw a rook away for a
few pawns and some nonspecific threats.
Instead, why not improve the position of your pieces before you try to
break through? If you're going to sacrifice a rook, might it not be
useful to have your other rook in position to enter the battle
immediately?
(An aside, my analysis engine tells me the position including the rook
sacrifice is "book" which means that the sacrifice may be technically
correct. I don't know, and I don't really care. I can't calculate a
clear win involving your line, and I think it's foolish to sacrifice a
piece because somebody's told you it's correct if you can't find the
win).
So instead I like 3.Bb3. My original plan is to play Rhg8, then to push
f4-f5, breaking open the position around the black king when my superior
development, extra piece, and open lines should prove decisive.
Notice how black is almost immediately confronted with big problems, but
now e6 just hangs a pawn.
So 3.Bb3 Kf8 4.f5
With the king on f8, I may end up wanting my h-rook on f1.
4. ... gxf5 5.Qd5!
Now black can stop this move by playing Nf6. Let's make his life
complicated!
5. ... e6 (5. ... Qh7? 6.Rxh5 e6 7.Rxh7. Winning another piece and
taking the queens off, with an easy win for white) 6.Qxd6+ Ke8.
Here I was just planning on something simply like gxf5 which opens more
lines towards the black king) but looking at the board there's the
now-obvious Ba4+!
7.Ba4+ Rc6 8.Bxc6+ bc 9.Qxc6+ Ke8
Lots of clear finishes here. The cleanest (though not the easiest to
see) is probably:
10.Qb7+ Kf6 (10. ... Kf8 Qxa8+ & Qxh8) 11.Qc7 (threatening mate with the
pawn) fxe 12.Rf1+ Nf4 13.Rxf4 mate.
The problem, in a nutshell, is that rather than going for a
straightforward win, you sacrificed material for complications in which
the computer outplayed you. But you were up material!
When you're up a piece or more, sacrificing for an attack should be one
of the last things you consider. Instead, you should consolidate your
material advantage and slowly improve your position. Every trade brings
you closer to a trivially won endgame.
Notice how the winning strategy here doesn't even really change because
you're up a piece. If the black bishop was on, say, d7 instead you'd
still try to win by opening up lines against the enemy king. That
strategy is still good.
Against computers, it's very dangerous to go into unclear complications.
I'd rather not read too much into any one game, but I'm curious how
comfortable you are playing with relatively few pieces on the board? How
are your endgame skills? (Not the basics, like R+K v R, but practical
stuff, R+4 p vs R+3p, or superior pawn structure?)
Now, to be fair, you still had a win even after the sacrifice. You're
probably winning after 18.Rf5, when I think you force a simplification
(Qg3, Qxg3 Nxg3, Rxc5) but even here all you've got is the realatively
tricky material advantage of two minor pieces against a rook (one I
suspect you're not confident in your ability to convert into a win) and
some nice passed pawns.
But this game looks to me like a failure of technique. Rather than
simply improve you position carefully, you made a reckless sacrifice.
The resulting position was complicated enough that the computer
outplayed you.
You should always strive to avoid unneccesary complications when you're
ahead.
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