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Date: 18 Oct 2008 11:06:39
From: chessplayer
Subject: Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4
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I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 superior or
should he have played N x d4.
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 10:04:31
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4
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On Oct 20, 9:08=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 18, 2:06=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
> > playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
> > the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
> > on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
> > that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
> > play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
> > computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
> > least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 =A0superior or
> > should he have played N x d4.
>
> Looks like you are correct.Kramnik resigns on move 36. Anand Nxe3
> Clinched the game...
Actually, the above was in reference to game 4. Where Kramnik could
have pulled off a difficult win but probably avoided the complications
as the defeat in game 3 must have really affected him. He really
should have won in game 3. The tragedy in game 5 was even worse. This
was Kramnik's best chance of winning. After move number 22 Ra3 he was
in a winning position. However, after having played so well till this
move he didn't know how to exploit his position and ended up not even
drawing but losing. Too bad. Now it looks very difficult for Kramnik
to bounce back. It seems Anand has his number.
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 09:08:02
From:
Subject: Re: Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4
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On Oct 18, 2:06=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote:
> I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
> playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
> the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
> on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
> that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
> play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
> computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
> least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 =A0superior or
> should he have played N x d4.
Looks like you are correct.Kramnik resigns on move 36. Anand Nxe3
Clinched the game...
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Date: 18 Oct 2008 19:41:53
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4
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On Oct 19, 12:13=A0am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
> > playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But
> > at the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better.
> > Later on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my
> > point is that how come when a club level player like me intuitively
> > wanted to play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked
> > by the computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the
> > world (or at least amongst the best) picked R x d4.
>
> Kramnik thought he could see advantages in Rxd4 that you weren't good
> enough to see. =A0However, it seems that somebody even better than
> Kramnik would be able to see that these advantages were illusory. =A0It
> looks like you got the right move but not necessarily for the right
> reasons.
Actually, I did see a few moves ahead (maybe not as much as Kramnik)
while watching the game on time delay. (For practical purposes as far
as I'm concerned its like watching it live). Anyway, R x d4 lead to a
draw as far as I'm concerned even when Kramnik played it. I could see
that much. How does R x d4 lead to anything else. Was Kramnik simply
aiming for a draw as black and then hoping to regain his point playing
white. Only he can answer. However, I will say this that while
intuitively I saw N x d4 as the better option I could not see so far
ahead and Kramnik probably saw that it is a difficult line which has
advantages but he felt that Anand could fight back. Something I saw on
analysis. So, I guess the only explanation I have for Kramnik is that
he purposely took the safe option and played the move which could only
result in a draw. One other reason for his playing safe this time
could probably be that in games two and three he did play aggressively
and lost out by giving Anand the lead. One hopes that in game 5 we see
Kramnik taking advantage of a good position.
>
> As a simple example, consider the following position:
>
> =A0 White: Kh1, Qd2, Re1, Pg2, Ph2
> =A0 Black: Kh8, Qf8, Nc4, Pg7, Ph7
> =A0 FEN: =A0 5q1k/6pp/8/8/1n6/8/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 0 1
>
> A complete beginner might think that 1.Qxc4 is the best move because
> it wins a knight. =A0A slightly better player would reject this move
> because the knight is protected and white's queen is more valuable
> than black's knight. =A0However, a still stronger player would see that,
> after 1... Qxc4, 2.Re8+ Qf8 3.Rxf8# is mate. =A0(An even stronger player
> might find that this is wrong, too. ;-) ) =A0So the hypothetical
> beginner picked the right move but for the wrong reasons.
Agree with this analysis of yours but I don't feel it applies in my
case. When I say intuitively, I was looking many moves ahead to the
end game where I too saw black being a pawn up. I still believe that
Kramnik got scared of playing a complicated game with Anand even
though he did have the advantage.
But then these are supposed to be the two best players in the world
today. If they don't play a complicated game of chess who will. The
only reason I say complicated is because the end game could have ended
up with a knight and pawn to black vs just the bishop for white. Now
this is still a certain draw for black if not a victory. Was Kramnik
so scared that he might blunder again that he decided to play it safe
and draw. Only Kramnik can answer that. I believe the latter. After
the blunder he made in game 3 it must have affected Kramnik. We as
club level players when we lose a game in a tournament it sometimes
affects us especially in a game we know we should have won. So, in a
world championship the pressure is intense and after losing a game one
should have drawn or possibly won it can psychologically affect a
player. One only hopes Kramnik bounces back in game 5.
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Voodoo =
Priest (TM): it's like a manwww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/=A0 =A0 of t=
he cloth that has mystical powers!
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Date: 18 Oct 2008 20:13:28
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4
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chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote:
> I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
> playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But
> at the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better.
> Later on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my
> point is that how come when a club level player like me intuitively
> wanted to play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked
> by the computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the
> world (or at least amongst the best) picked R x d4.
Kramnik thought he could see advantages in Rxd4 that you weren't good
enough to see. However, it seems that somebody even better than
Kramnik would be able to see that these advantages were illusory. It
looks like you got the right move but not necessarily for the right
reasons.
As a simple example, consider the following position:
White: Kh1, Qd2, Re1, Pg2, Ph2
Black: Kh8, Qf8, Nc4, Pg7, Ph7
FEN: 5q1k/6pp/8/8/1n6/8/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 0 1
A complete beginner might think that 1.Qxc4 is the best move because
it wins a knight. A slightly better player would reject this move
because the knight is protected and white's queen is more valuable
than black's knight. However, a still stronger player would see that,
after 1... Qxc4, 2.Re8+ Qf8 3.Rxf8# is mate. (An even stronger player
might find that this is wrong, too. ;-) ) So the hypothetical
beginner picked the right move but for the wrong reasons.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Voodoo Priest (TM): it's like a man
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of the cloth that has mystical powers!
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