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Date: 17 Apr 2006 10:03:05
From:
Subject: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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Correspondence game PGN below. An unfamiliar opening for me, but I
thought I was playing a somewhat sound game (up two pawns) as black up
until move 15 ... Qf7. For some reason I hadn't anticipated the
followon to Nxf6. All the other options had me still up a bit after
the trades. Care to point out any significant blunders up to that
point (my h6 move stands out in my head as a time waster, especially
since I was only one move away from a castle which would have avoided
some of that debacle.)
Also, my opponent agreed that the game wasn't completely lost until I
hung my king on 28 ... h3, allowing his next move to capture my rook
without loss. Both he and I thought I had done well with getting my
rook on row 1, as it somewhat pinned his bishop and rook, temporarily
restoring a little more equality to the endgame. I thought I may be
able to advance the kingside pawns with that small amount of time
gained and squeeze out a draw. (hence my focus on the pawns, and lack
of paying attending to the check-fork threat). That said, my pawn
endgame experience is weak, and I still wasn't quite sure how to make
something of that, if it was possible. Anyone with more knowledge care
to comment on how futile things were after move 25? was there a way to
play those kingside pawns to a draw?
PGN:
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. d4 h6 6. Bc4 d6 7. e5 dxe5
8. Nxe5 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Qe7 10. Qd4 f6 11. O-O Nc6 12. Bb5 fxe5 13. Qe4
Bd7 14. Nd5 Nf6 15. Qg6+ Qf7 16. Nxf6+ Ke7 17. Qxf7+ Kxf7 18. Nxd7 Rad8
19. Bxc6 bxc6 20. Nxe5+ Kf6 21. Nxc6 Rd6 22. Nxa7 Rhd8 23. Nb5 Rd6d1
24. Nxc7 Ke7 25. Rxd1 Rxd1+ 26. Kf2 Kd6 27. Nb5+ Ke5 28. b3 h5
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Date: 05 May 2006 06:03:05
From:
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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which is kind of the point of the original post. It initially looked
to me like a "I don't think I can win this (because of the other
pieces), but maybe...." type of pawn ending. I'm a bit more familiar
with some of the simpler ones. By your reply, can I assume that there
may have been a winning (or drawing) strategy with those pawns? Based
on the other replies in this thread, I thought the consensus was "Nope,
but thanks for playing...".
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Date: 23 Apr 2006 20:52:47
From: Ron
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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"Well, that depends on the situation. It also depends on your endgame
skill: there's no point trading off all the pieces into a pawn endgame
where you're up a pawn if you don't know how to convert that into a
win (which isn't always possible, anyway)."
True enough, but in this case, if you don't know how to win this pawn
ending, you need to be doing nothing else but working on your pawn
endings.
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Date: 18 Apr 2006 02:05:59
From: James
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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[email protected] wrote :
>......
> 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. d4 h6 6. Bc4 d6 7. e5 dxe5
> 8. Nxe5 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Qe7 10. Qd4 f6 11. O-O Nc6 12. Bb5 fxe5 13. Qe4
> Bd7 14. Nd5 Nf6 15. Qg6+ Qf7 16. Nxf6+ Ke7 17. Qxf7+ Kxf7 18. Nxd7 Rad8
> 19. Bxc6 bxc6 20. Nxe5+ Kf6 21. Nxc6 Rd6 22. Nxa7 Rhd8 23. Nb5 Rd6d1
> 24. Nxc7 Ke7 25. Rxd1 Rxd1+ 26. Kf2 Kd6 27. Nb5+ Ke5 28. b3 h5
>
Not much to add to Ron's comments. However:
4. Nc3 is not considered as "best move". Standard moves: Bc4, h4.
The refutation seems to be 4... g4! and then 5. Nd4 Qh4+ 6. Ke2 and
white hasn't got such a good development for the pawn.
9. ...Qe7 is bad indeed, but 10. Qd4 is almost as bad also. The correct
continuation for white should be 10. Nd5 Qd8 11. h4 c6 12. Nc3 Qxd1+
13.Nxd1 Nd7 14. e6 fxe6 15. Bxe6 Nc5 16. Bxc8 Rxc8 17. hxg5 with a
slightly better position
The refutation for 10. Qd4 is not f6 (which looks also incorrect) but
10...Nc6 11. Bb5 Bd7 12. Bxc6 Bxc6 13. 0-0 Qe6 14. a4 (Rd1 doesn't look
better) Ne7 15. Nb5 0-0 16. Nxc7 Qg4 17. Qf2 Rd8
and black is better (the e pawn won't hold for long)
After f6, white response should have been 11.Bxg8, with a very
interesting tactical position, which might have ended like that:
11...Nc6 12.Qe4 Rxg8 13.Nd5 Qxe5 14. Nxf6+ Kf8 15. Qxe5 Nxe5 16. Nxg8
Kxg8 and white is slightly better
I am not sure that 12...fxe5 is a bad move.After 14...Qd6 15. Rd1 Ne7
black position is not that bad. They are one pawn up, have a sound pawn
structure, the white queen will be expelled from e4 by activating the
bishop (Bf5), and the e pawn looks solid.
A possible continuation could be:
16. Be3! Bf5
[fxe3 is probably less good 17. Nxe7 Qxe7 18. Qg6+ Kd8 19. Bxc6 bxc6 20.
Qxc6 Rb8 21. Rxd7+ Qxd7 22. Qf6+ Kc8 23. Qxh8+ Kb7 24. Qxe5+ Re8 25. Qc3
and black is slightly better because of the passed e-pawn]
17. Qc4 Nxd5 18. Rxd5 Be6 19. Bxc6+ bxc6 20. Rxd6 Bxc4 2. Rxc6 Bd5 21.
Rc5 0-0-0 23. Bf2 e4
and black is one pawn up, the e pawn is passed and linked to the f pawn...
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Date: 17 Apr 2006 13:10:28
From:
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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Thanks for the analysis.
>it's pointless for you to play on
oh, trust me, after 15 we both fully understood that further play was
an exercise more tha anything else. I played this line because in
previous games I found myself in an opposite position (almost what
white had here) lots of pieces out, almost no pawn development. open
active games, so I was able to win, but once the endgame was closer
than I would have liked just because my pawns were so much further back
than his. Wanted to try this one out. Also, I beleived it's not one
my opponent knew too well. Since I'm just building my opening theory
knowledge, I've tended to do better getting "out of book" quickly.
Especially against someone who knows the more common lines rather well.
>your ninth move looks terrible.
Well, of course it didn't seem so to me at the time :). looking back
on it, I saw: (a) a queen trade where I don't even force him out of
castling, and maintain a 1 pt lead, (b) getting up another pawn,
opening up his center, and 'correcting' my doubled pawn. I chose b,
thinking it was to my advantage. Lesson learned. Up a pawn, he offers
an even trade with a big piece, take it. Otherwise (as seen here) it
leaves him with enough ammo to equalize or turn the tide.
>Note how, on e7, your queen interferes with your kingside development
could you explain this a little more? I assume you mean that it delays
moving the knight until i handle his e-pawn. Nf6 would have been an
alternative to f6, since that pawn was pinned to the king for at least
one move.
>unless you've seen that there's a tactical refutation of Qxd1+, which there isn't
hindsight's fuzzy, but I was concerned about a Nxc7 fork. but that
would have been taken care of by Na6, so I cannot recall. I did
consider it, but something led me astray (I thought it was more than
just the 'up 2 pawns' issue... ah, well. best to forget the bad
reasoning.)
> Why are you opening lines when you're so dreadfully behind in development
gain a pawn, attack/force him to jockey the queen. thought he'd bring
up Nd5 (shortsightedness) right away, and trade queens then after I
gain another pawn, and avoiding the Nxc7 losing the rook, which seemed
to keep popping up as I looked ahead. Also, which line are you
referring to me opening by fxe5?
>Here I like 14. ... Qc5+ followed by 15. 0-0-0
me too. again, shortsightedness. I didn't fully consider Qg6+ until
after my Nf6. Once it happened, I realized I was done.
Everything after that we continued as an exercise more than anything
else. As I said, I wasn't sure if there was a way to play those pawns,
but I assumed the answer was as you said. Of course, once he made the
b3 move I realized things were done, moved h5 (for no good reason) and
resigned.
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Date: 20 Apr 2006 15:22:12
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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<[email protected] > wrote:
> Since I'm just building my opening theory knowledge, I've tended to
> do better getting "out of book" quickly. Especially against someone
> who knows the more common lines rather well.
You didn't lose the game because of a lack of knowledge of opening
theory. You lost it because of a neglect of general principles
(develop your pieces, get your king safe) and the tactical mistake
that cost you two pieces. I'm not a strong player myself but it seems
to me that your time would be better spent practising tactics and
learning about the general principles of the opening than studying
specific opening variations.
> looking back on it, I saw: (a) a queen trade where I don't even
> force him out of castling, and maintain a 1 pt lead, (b) getting up
> another pawn, opening up his center, and 'correcting' my doubled
> pawn.
Don't get too hung up on `point values': they're just a calculation
aid to help you assess material imbalances. The biggest problem with
your position after your ninth move is not the doubled pawns. It's
the fact that your opponent has two developed pieces (the Nc3 and Bc4)
and you have a kind-of-developed queen that's completely blocking in
your knight. If this gets any worse, White will be able to whip up an
attack before you're able to defend.
> Lesson learned. Up a pawn, he offers an even trade with a big piece,
> take it.
Well, that depends on the situation. It also depends on your endgame
skill: there's no point trading off all the pieces into a pawn endgame
where you're up a pawn if you don't know how to convert that into a
win (which isn't always possible, anyway).
Dave.
--
David Richerby Fluorescent Impossible Laser (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an intense beam of light
but it can't exist and it'll hurt
your eyes!
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Date: 17 Apr 2006 20:25:46
From: Ron
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
>
> >your ninth move looks terrible.
> Well, of course it didn't seem so to me at the time :). looking back
> on it, I saw: (a) a queen trade where I don't even force him out of
> castling, and maintain a 1 pt lead, (b) getting up another pawn,
> opening up his center, and 'correcting' my doubled pawn. I chose b,
> thinking it was to my advantage. Lesson learned. Up a pawn, he offers
> an even trade with a big piece, take it. Otherwise (as seen here) it
> leaves him with enough ammo to equalize or turn the tide.
Well, you don't HAVE to trade if you have another good move, and it
doesn't hurt you when he instigates the trade, you can do that.
But here you don't really have those options.
> >Note how, on e7, your queen interferes with your kingside development
>
> could you explain this a little more? I assume you mean that it delays
> moving the knight until i handle his e-pawn. Nf6 would have been an
> alternative to f6, since that pawn was pinned to the king for at least
> one move.
Well, your knight has three ways into the game: h6, f6, and e7. Your
pawn has taken away h6, his pawn has taken away f6, so that leaves e7
... where your knight can't go so long as your queen is there.
> > Why are you opening lines when you're so dreadfully behind in development
> gain a pawn, attack/force him to jockey the queen. thought he'd bring
> up Nd5 (shortsightedness) right away, and trade queens then after I
> gain another pawn, and avoiding the Nxc7 losing the rook, which seemed
> to keep popping up as I looked ahead. Also, which line are you
> referring to me opening by fxe5?
The more pawn trades are made, the more lines are open and the more
activity pieces have. For example, notice how the e-file now open - and
it's pretty easy to see how he could really hurt you down it - Re1 would
hang over your position if you didn't blow things via Nf6.
You are much happier when he has a pawn on the e-file, because then a R
on e1 doesn't threaten as much.
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Date: 17 Apr 2006 18:37:30
From: Ron
Subject: Re: game lost. thoughts? (KPG-accepted)
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In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Also, my opponent agreed that the game wasn't completely lost until I
> hung my king on 28 ... h3, allowing his next move to capture my rook
> without loss.
No, you were dead lost long before this.
> Both he and I thought I had done well with getting my
> rook on row 1, as it somewhat pinned his bishop and rook, temporarily
> restoring a little more equality to the endgame.
Not really, no.
> I thought I may be
> able to advance the kingside pawns with that small amount of time
> gained and squeeze out a draw.
Nope. Even if you ended up with a past pawn on the kingside, he could
sac a piece for it and you'd be fine. Your pin on the back rank is
meaninless because he canget out of it with b3 and Bb2.
> Anyone with more knowledge care
> to comment on how futile things were after move 25? was there a way to
> play those kingside pawns to a draw?
You're dead lost.
A few more specific notes:
> PGN:
>
> 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. d4 h6 6. Bc4 d6 7. e5 dxe5
> 8. Nxe5 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Qe7
This isn't a line I play, and I don't know the current theory on it, but
your ninth move looks terrible. You should play Qxe1+ here, because
you're up a pawn, and follow up with Be6.
Note how, on e7, your queen interferes with your kingside development.
And you give white control of more open lines.
9. ... Qe7 gets at least one, maybe two ?. No other move should even
occur to you unless you've seen that there's a tactical refutation of
Qxd1+, which there isn't.
> 10. Qd4 f6 11. O-O Nc6 12. Bb5 fxe5
I also don't like this move. Why are you opening lines when you're so
dreadfully behind in development. I vastly prefer 13. Bd7; fxe5 may end
up being forced, but you can't voluntarily open lines here.
> 13. Qe4
> Bd7 14. Nd5 Nf6
Here I like 14. ... Qc5+ followed by 15. 0-0-0 when white's inaccurate
play has let you back in the game.
> 15. Qg6+ Qf7 16. Nxf6+
At this point, forget it, you have no compensation for the piece.
> Ke7 17. Qxf7+ Kxf7 18. Nxd7 Rad8
> 19. Bxc6 bxc6 20. Nxe5+ Kf6 21. Nxc6 Rd6 22. Nxa7
You're down two pieces and several pawns. White doesn't play
particularly accurately here - he should stop dancing with his knight,
play b3 and Bb2. Nevertheless, his advantage is so huge that it's
pointless for you to play on. He can play very inaccurately and still be
fine. He can hang two pieces for nothing at this point and still have a
winning advantage.
> Rhd8 23. Nb5 Rd6d1
> 24. Nxc7 Ke7 25. Rxd1 Rxd1+ 26. Kf2 Kd6 27. Nb5+ Ke5 28. b3 h5
-Ron
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