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Main
Date: 14 Jun 2007 02:50:21
From:
Subject: 32 or 64 bit?
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Hello,
I've a question on Mobile CPUs: Is AMD Turion 64x2 better than Intel
Core2 Duo for chess engines?
Some friends, using Core 2 Duo T7200 2 GHz, perform well: Fritz 2900
Kn/s, Hiarcs 600 Kn/s, Junior 3800 Kn/s...
However, I've seen that some engines, like Rybka and Zap! Chess
Zanzibar, perform magnificently on 64 bit..
Can someone give me an answer?
Thanks
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Date: 16 Jun 2007 20:18:00
From: Jud McCranie
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:50:21 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I've a question on Mobile CPUs: Is AMD Turion 64x2 better than Intel
>Core2 Duo for chess engines?
I have a AMD Athlon 64x2, but it won't run the 64-bit version of
Rybka, probably because I don't have a 64-bit operating system.
--
Replace you know what by j to email
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 11:42:18
From:
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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> > So yes, you can safely get a Core 2 Duo system and have a full64bit
> > system.
>
> One caveat... You also need a64bitOS to be able to run64bitprograms.
>
If you are sure that Core2 Duo are 64bit CPUs, now I understand why in
their notebooks Rybka 64 doesn't work!
It's incredible that in their notebooks a respectable society like
Toshiba has installed Windows OS 32....
I'm without more words :)
So, if they want to use fully their CPU, they have to buy a new OS...
I thank you for the clear and complete answer.
Regards
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 17:45:47
From: Hello
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> > So yes, you can safely get a Core 2 Duo system and have a full64bit
>> > system.
>>
>> One caveat... You also need a64bitOS to be able to run64bitprograms.
>>
>
> If you are sure that Core2 Duo are 64bit CPUs, now I understand why in
> their notebooks Rybka 64 doesn't work!
I'm sure. But you can check Intel's site just to make sure for yourself.
But yes, that's why it didn't work. They were probably trying to run it on
the 32 bit OS installed.
> It's incredible that in their notebooks a respectable society like
> Toshiba has installed Windows OS 32....
It's not just Toshiba. No major pc seller sells a 64 bit OS by default.
There's no great reason to. There are very few 64 bit programs unless you
compile them yourself.
There are very few 64 bit drivers.
Probably only one out of 1,000 64 bit buyers would even know the difference,
let alone want to run 64 bit programs.
It's just like when systems went to 32 bits. They were still sold with 16
bit DOS/Win3 installed.
Back in the Windows 3.1 days, Microsoft made available a free 32 bit
extender so you could run 32 bit Windows programs. They aren't doing that
with 64 bits. They want you to buy twice.
But yes, I do agree... they should be sold with 64 bit OS's. Since
everybody had to rewrite their drivers for Vista anyway, they could have
made them 64 bits too and this whole mess would be taken care of.
But Microsoft figures nobody really needs 64 bits, and the few that do are
willing to pay twice.
As a side note, some vendors were selling dual core systems with XP Home
running on only one core. People were getting half the power they were
paying for.
And as another side note... I've heard that Toshiba locks some of their
BIOS'es so the system can only run Windows. If you install Linux, the
system will stop working. Sounds pretty extreme, but from what I've read on
the web, it's legit. Phoenix BIOS offers it as an option to the vendors
they sell to.
> I'm without more words :)
Well... if you think that's incredible, just wait until you realize that
most programs written today can't take advantage of that extra core you paid
for. So for most things you'll be doing, you can only get 50% of the
performance.
Some things can, such as video encoding etc. And some games. But not all,
and very little of the other stuff.
About the best you can do is run two programs at once.
> So, if they want to use fully their CPU, they have to buy a new OS...
> I thank you for the clear and complete answer.
Well.... you may not have to *buy*
Microsoft does make free 90 day trials available for Win XP Pro 64 bit and
Windows Server 2003 64 bit. You can get them from the Microsoft web site.
So you can at least play with it before you buy.
You can even set things up to dual boot. I know a guy who dual boots
between WinXP (he hates Vista) and WinXP64. He can't go all the way to 64
bits because there aren't 64 bit drivers (XP or Vista) for all his hardware
and the 32 bit drivers don't work properly in XP64. So he dual boots.
Or you can give Linux a try, and dual boot. I don't know if Rybka would run
under Linux & WINE, though. But it would be a lot cheaper, since Linux is
free. There may be no need to give Microsoft yet more of your money.
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Date: 15 Jun 2007 11:13:39
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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Hello <[email protected] > wrote:
> But Microsoft figures nobody really needs 64 bits,
That's even more restricted than
``640k should be enough for anyone.'' -- Bill Gates
:-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Dangerous Atom Bomb (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a weapon of mass destruction but it
could explode at any minute!
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 07:57:44
From:
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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On 14 Giu, 15:22, "Hello" <[email protected] > wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Hello,
> > I've a question on Mobile CPUs: Is AMD Turion 64x2 better than Intel
> > Core2 Duo for chess engines?
>
> No. The 'professional' computer chess people strongly prefer the Intel Core
> 2 Duo over the AMD design.
>
> The IC2D has a few instructions that run a lot faster than X2 does. Things
> like BSF, BSR, etc.
>
> Plus the larger cache is good for the large move tables etc. that modern
> bitboard programs use.
>
> Plus because the L2 cache is shared, that means those tables will only be in
> there once, leaving more memory for other data. For the AMD design, each
> cache is seperate and that means each core has its own copy, which takes up
> more space.
>
> > Some friends, using Core 2 Duo T7200 2 GHz, perform well: Fritz 2900
> > Kn/s, Hiarcs 600 Kn/s, Junior 3800 Kn/s...
> > However, I've seen that some engines, like Rybka and Zap! Chess
> > Zanzibar, perform magnificently on64bit..
>
> Any bitboard program will perform much better on a64bitprocessor,
> regardless whether it is Core 2 Duo or Turion X2.
>
> For that matter, even a non-bitboard program will perform better on a64bit
> processor simply because of it having more registers available while in64bitmode.
>
> So reaslistically, either of the64bitprocessors, AMD Athlon / Turion64
> x2 or Intel Core 2 Duo will perform very well.
>
> Other factors, of course, can influence things. Like the cpu clock rate.
> The memory bus speed. The memory speed. And whether you are running on
> batteries or AC power in a laptop.
>
I have to to thank you for your quick and complete answer! I've just
also seen on the net that intel, with santa rosa, has increased
performances, so there is no dubt :)
> And supposedly, the next generation64bitprocessors from Intel and AMD
> will be even faster and more efficient, and more chess friendly (although
> that's just an accident.)
>
Is intel planning to develop 64bit processors? ?'ve never heard
nothing about this: the cavaliers of 32bit will build 64 "AMD" bit...
However, is a big dilemma, because the future is 64bit, and buying a
Core2 Duo means that I buy the past....
Warm regards
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 10:35:40
From: Hello
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 14 Giu, 15:22, "Hello" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> And supposedly, the next generation64bitprocessors from Intel and AMD
>> will be even faster and more efficient, and more chess friendly (although
>> that's just an accident.)
>>
> Is intel planning to develop 64bit processors? ?'ve never heard
> nothing about this: the cavaliers of 32bit will build 64 "AMD" bit...
> However, is a big dilemma, because the future is 64bit, and buying a
> Core2 Duo means that I buy the past....
> Warm regards
Intel has been doing 64 bit processors for quite a while.
The Core 2 Duo is very definetly fully 64 bit. That's why it's the prefered
processor for computer chess people.
Intel started with a hack to their Xeon's and Pentium-4 to make some that
were 64 bit. The processor was still 32 bit, but it knew how to fake it.
Not a good solution, the performance was terrible, but it gave them a quick
response to AMD.
Later on, they produced real 64 bit chips that were fully 64 bit inside.
There are even Celeron's and Sempron's that are 64 bit. The lowest of the
low can even do 64 bit.
There are two versions of 'Core'. The original 32 bit 'Core' and the 64 bit
'Core 2'. The 'Core 2' are fully 64 bit.
Check the Intel site for the details
Here's a quick overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64
It's been called a lot of things:
AMD64
x64
x86-64
EMT64
i64
and so on. But they are all 64 bit x86 processors.
So yes, you can safely get a Core 2 Duo system and have a full 64 bit
system.
If you want the absolute latest, then you'll have to wait for AMD & Intel to
release their next generation of processors, since those will improve the
virtualization abilities as well as the performance. (If you don't care
about virtualization, then that's no big deal.)
Not all 64 bit processors can do virtualization. But most users wont care
about that for at least another 5 years, if then.
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 11:11:30
From: Hello
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
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"Hello" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> So yes, you can safely get a Core 2 Duo system and have a full 64 bit
> system.
One caveat... You also need a 64 bit OS to be able to run 64 bit programs.
That means either XP pro 64 bit, or one of the Vista 64 bit versions.
Your regular 32 bit OS will *not* be able to run any 64 bit programs. That
includes the versions of Vista & XP that are sold on the 64 bit systems.
You'll have to explicitly specifiy or buy a 64 bit OS to be able to run any
64 bit program.
Or switch to Linux64, if you happen to prefer Linux over Windows.
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Date: 14 Jun 2007 08:22:08
From: Hello
Subject: Re: 32 or 64 bit?
|
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
> I've a question on Mobile CPUs: Is AMD Turion 64x2 better than Intel
> Core2 Duo for chess engines?
No. The 'professional' computer chess people strongly prefer the Intel Core
2 Duo over the AMD design.
The IC2D has a few instructions that run a lot faster than X2 does. Things
like BSF, BSR, etc.
Plus the larger cache is good for the large move tables etc. that modern
bitboard programs use.
Plus because the L2 cache is shared, that means those tables will only be in
there once, leaving more memory for other data. For the AMD design, each
cache is seperate and that means each core has its own copy, which takes up
more space.
> Some friends, using Core 2 Duo T7200 2 GHz, perform well: Fritz 2900
> Kn/s, Hiarcs 600 Kn/s, Junior 3800 Kn/s...
> However, I've seen that some engines, like Rybka and Zap! Chess
> Zanzibar, perform magnificently on 64 bit..
Any bitboard program will perform much better on a 64 bit processor,
regardless whether it is Core 2 Duo or Turion X2.
For that matter, even a non-bitboard program will perform better on a 64 bit
processor simply because of it having more registers available while in 64
bit mode.
So reaslistically, either of the 64 bit processors, AMD Athlon / Turion 64
x2 or Intel Core 2 Duo will perform very well.
Other factors, of course, can influence things. Like the cpu clock rate.
The memory bus speed. The memory speed. And whether you are running on
batteries or AC power in a laptop.
And supposedly, the next generation 64 bit processors from Intel and AMD
will be even faster and more efficient, and more chess friendly (although
that's just an accident.)
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