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Main
Date: 10 Apr 2007 05:42:45
From: samsloan
Subject: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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Joe Lux has uncovered a serious problem with Monroi. If he did not
discover it, he is the first to report it.
It seems that two newspapers have refused to publish game scores that
first appeared on the Monroi website, because MonRoi is claiming a
copyright on the games.
It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
copyrighted. However, the USCF is in no position to go to court and
fight a courtcase over this.
MonRoi is listed as a co-sponsor of the US Championship. The current
rules REQUIRE the use of MonRoi at the US Championship.
However, we expect the games of the US Championship to have widspread
media publicity. If MonRoi asserts a copyright claim, even an invalid
claim, that will slow down or hault the publicity we expect to gain
from the US Championship.
I see no choice in the matter: We must tell MonRoi to stop asserting
any claim to copyright of any scores of chess games. Failing that, we
must BAN the use of MonRoi in any chess tournament, including the US
Chess Championship.
The complete posting by Joe Lux follows:
ost:39039 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Monroi
and the US Championship
While "campaigning" in New England this weekend, some interesting
developments have occured with serious ramifications for the chess
community as a whole.
Stephen Dann has written a chess column for the Worcester Telegram and
Gazette for over 30 years. Two weeks ago, he submitted a column that
included a game score: Curdo-Rizzitano. The newspaper refused to
include the gamescore. It was included on the Monroi website. It seems
if you register to use the site, you have agreed to recognize Monroi's
copyright on game scores.
A week ago, Harold Dondis had the same problem at the Boston Globe,
where he has written a column for 50 years.
Both papers are own by the NY Times. I called Dylan McClain this
morning. He has discussed that matter already with NYT corporate
lawyers, and is trying to reach Bill Hall.
I called Glenn Petersen, who probably has the most practical
experience on publishing games and copyright laws in the chess
community. He says there had been court cases where unannotated games
are free from copyright laws, but that now with the internet, new
rulings might be required.
Monroi will be recording all the games from the US Championship. Will
they now hold hostage the distribution of these games around the
world?
This is the type of issue that USCF must address. How does this effect
Chess Life, and every other publication of chess? Is this what we can
expect from endorsing the Monroi machine? I hope we don't need to find
a chess attorney who can do pro bono work to stop Monroi, but we have
to be prepared for that possibility. Maybe Monroi can be encouraged to
change its policy before it goes that far.
Does anyone know about other chess journalists that have been effected
by Monroi?
Chessically yours, Joe Lux
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 20:03:57
From: Scott
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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On Apr 11, 5:00 am, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> >It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
> >held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
> >record. It's a keting ploy byMonRoi,if it is true, and nothing
> >more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
> >whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
> >games anywhere that has been recorded byMonRoi? I suspect they have
> >and nothing came of it.
>
> If not, I would be happy to post any tournament games thatMonRoi
> claims copyright to on my webpage <http://www.guymacon.com/> and
> to then challenge them to sue me for copyright violation. I don't
> think they will and I have the resources to win if they do.
>
> Guy Macon
> <http://www.guymacon.com/>
I second that. I will publish the games on my site as well. Someone
send me the game scores after it is done to admin at chessmob dot org.
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 13:15:39
From: Rob Mitchell
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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On Apr 11, 4:00 am, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> >It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
> >held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
> >record. It's a keting ploy by MonRoi ,if it is true, and nothing
> >more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
> >whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
> >games anywhere that has been recorded by MonRoi? I suspect they have
> >and nothing came of it.
>
> If not, I would be happy to post any tournament games that MonRoi
> claims copyright to on my webpage <http://www.guymacon.com/> and
> to then challenge them to sue me for copyright violation. I don't
> think they will and I have the resources to win if they do.
>
> Guy Macon
> <http://www.guymacon.com/>
Wonderful idea! I understand the Jerry Hanken is the spokesperson/
salesman for MonRoi? Is that true? Did he receive any payment to
infulence this decision?
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Date: 12 Apr 2007 10:56:23
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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"Rob Mitchell" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 11, 4:00 am, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>> Rob wrote:
>> >It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
>> >held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
>> >record. It's a keting ploy by MonRoi ,if it is true, and nothing
>> >more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
>> >whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
>> >games anywhere that has been recorded by MonRoi? I suspect they have
>> >and nothing came of it.
>>
>> If not, I would be happy to post any tournament games that MonRoi
>> claims copyright to on my webpage <http://www.guymacon.com/> and
>> to then challenge them to sue me for copyright violation. I don't
>> think they will and I have the resources to win if they do.
>>
>> Guy Macon
>> <http://www.guymacon.com/>
>
> Wonderful idea! I understand the Jerry Hanken is the spokesperson/
> salesman for MonRoi? Is that true? Did he receive any payment to
> infulence this decision?
---
PT Wrote:
> Gone are the days when I traded a six pack of ale for all the usopen
> scoresheets.
Molson's? Or was Genesee good nuff?
What's interesting about this issue is that (a) a rules change was made to
accommodate a commercial venture, and now (b) apparently with advice from
the head of CJA we see a bald power-grab, which is (c) somehow at the whim
of the USCF President who has (d) by precedent declared game-scores are not
a privilege not a right.
I don't know what those folks are drinking, but suspect the number is
greater than 6.
Phil Innes
> In a message dated 4/11/2007 7:10:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
>
>
>
>>> Sam, I have been in communication with Chris Bird who handles Monroi in
>>> this area. He has provided me with games from the Eastern Class and
>>> given
>>> me
>>> permission to publish games. I give Continental credit for the game
>>> score. I am
>>> sure Bill Goichberg will accord this privilege to others. HBD
>
> I thought that Sam Sloan already said the board does not agree with this
> 'policy' and it would not appear at the Open?
>
> No permissions are necessary for game scores. Period. Eric Johnson in his
> note below is quite right. This situation has occured once before - at
> Elista, and though my friend bought the scores then gave them away (he
> gave
> them to me and I gave them to USCF and the 'West' via Tom Dorsch) even
> Fide
> didn't try it twice.
>
> Can someone write something in clear, here?
>
> Phil Innes
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 17:26:06
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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Rob Mitchell wrote:
> On Apr 11, 4:00 am, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>> Rob wrote:
>>> It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
>>> held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
>>> record. It's a keting ploy by MonRoi ,if it is true, and nothing
>>> more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
>>> whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
>>> games anywhere that has been recorded by MonRoi? I suspect they have
>>> and nothing came of it.
>> If not, I would be happy to post any tournament games that MonRoi
>> claims copyright to on my webpage <http://www.guymacon.com/> and
>> to then challenge them to sue me for copyright violation. I don't
>> think they will and I have the resources to win if they do.
>>
>> Guy Macon
>> <http://www.guymacon.com/>
>
> Wonderful idea! I understand the Jerry Hanken is the spokesperson/
> salesman for MonRoi? Is that true? Did he receive any payment to
> infulence this decision?
>
Just a new suit.
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 02:37:46
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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> It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
> copyrighted.
By which precedent?
The "score" of a chess game is either 1-0, 0-1, or 0.5-0.5.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 10:58:39
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:37:46 -0400, "Ray Gordon, creator of the
\"pivot\"" <[email protected] > wrote:
>> It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
>> copyrighted.
>By which precedent?
>The "score" of a chess game is either 1-0, 0-1, or 0.5-0.5.
What was the score of Mozart-Salieri, Vienna, 1791? Did Salieri
employ the Poison Pawn variation?
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 16:31:11
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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>>> It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
>>> copyrighted.
>
>>By which precedent?
>
>>The "score" of a chess game is either 1-0, 0-1, or 0.5-0.5.
>
> What was the score of Mozart-Salieri, Vienna, 1791? Did Salieri
> employ the Poison Pawn variation?
Musical scores are not the same as chess scores.
There's also the issue of the right to publicity of both the players and the
organizer.
Monroi is doing a great thing for chess.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 10 Apr 2007 20:33:14
From: Rob
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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On Apr 10, 7:42 am, "samsloan" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Joe Lux has uncovered a serious problem with Monroi. If he did not
> discover it, he is the first to report it.
>
> It seems that two newspapers have refused to publish game scores that
> first appeared on the Monroi website, because MonRoi is claiming a
> copyright on the games.
>
> It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
> copyrighted. However, the USCF is in no position to go to court and
> fight a courtcase over this.
>
> MonRoi is listed as a co-sponsor of the US Championship. The current
> rules REQUIRE the use of MonRoi at the US Championship.
>
> However, we expect the games of the US Championship to have widspread
> media publicity. If MonRoi asserts a copyright claim, even an invalid
> claim, that will slow down or hault the publicity we expect to gain
> from the US Championship.
>
> I see no choice in the matter: We must tell MonRoi to stop asserting
> any claim to copyright of any scores of chess games. Failing that, we
> must BAN the use of MonRoi in any chess tournament, including the US
> Chess Championship.
>
> The complete posting by Joe Lux follows:
>
> ost:39039 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Monroi
> and the US Championship
> While "campaigning" in New England this weekend, some interesting
> developments have occured with serious ramifications for the chess
> community as a whole.
>
> Stephen Dann has written a chess column for the Worcester Telegram and
> Gazette for over 30 years. Two weeks ago, he submitted a column that
> included a game score: Curdo-Rizzitano. The newspaper refused to
> include the gamescore. It was included on the Monroi website. It seems
> if you register to use the site, you have agreed to recognize Monroi's
> copyright on game scores.
>
> A week ago, Harold Dondis had the same problem at the Boston Globe,
> where he has written a column for 50 years.
>
> Both papers are own by the NY Times. I called Dylan McClain this
> morning. He has discussed that matter already with NYT corporate
> lawyers, and is trying to reach Bill Hall.
>
> I called Glenn Petersen, who probably has the most practical
> experience on publishing games and copyright laws in the chess
> community. He says there had been court cases where unannotated games
> are free from copyright laws, but that now with the internet, new
> rulings might be required.
>
> Monroi will be recording all the games from the US Championship. Will
> they now hold hostage the distribution of these games around the
> world?
>
> This is the type of issue that USCF must address. How does this effect
> Chess Life, and every other publication of chess? Is this what we can
> expect from endorsing the Monroi machine? I hope we don't need to find
> a chess attorney who can do pro bono work to stop Monroi, but we have
> to be prepared for that possibility. Maybe Monroi can be encouraged to
> change its policy before it goes that far.
>
> Does anyone know about other chess journalists that have been effected
> by Monroi?
>
> Chessically yours, Joe Lux
It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
record. It's a keting ploy by MonRoi ,if it is true, and nothing
more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
games anywhere that has been recorded bu MonRoi? I suspect they have
and nothing came of it.
Rob
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 09:00:41
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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Rob wrote:
>It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
>held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
>record. It's a keting ploy by MonRoi ,if it is true, and nothing
>more. Even a cheap, bad attorney coould win this case. I don't know
>whay a newspaper wouldn't print the games. Has anyone published the
>games anywhere that has been recorded by MonRoi? I suspect they have
>and nothing came of it.
If not, I would be happy to post any tournament games that MonRoi
claims copyright to on my webpage <http://www.guymacon.com/ > and
to then challenge them to sue me for copyright violation. I don't
think they will and I have the resources to win if they do.
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 02:42:19
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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>> Does anyone know about other chess journalists that have been effected
>> by Monroi?
>>
>> Chessically yours, Joe Lux
>
> It's a stupid claim. It would be like saying that a Royal Typewriters
> held the copyrights to every box score in baseball they were used to
> record.
More like saying that MLB owns the box scores, which they do, since they pay
to put on the show.
I see the chess publisher parasites who make their living on the backs of
poor players are likely freaking, but too bad.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 10 Apr 2007 16:01:05
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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At 05:28 PM 4/10/2007 EDT, [email protected] wrote:
>Now you can shut up on this non issue!! MonRoi has responded in an entirely
> satisfactory manner.
Sorry, but this is not entirely satisfactory. The USCF Executive board
does NOT agree that Monroi must be given credit for making available
the games from the US Championship. Other online services such as
chessbase.com and ICC have every legal right to copy the games and to
broadcast them on their own websites.
The fact that two newspapers have thus far refused to publish games
because they were taken from a Monroi website is a clear warning that
this should not be allowed.
Unless MonRoi removes copyright notices stating or implying that
Monroi holds the copyright to the games, the USCF Executive Board will
not allow the use of Monroi equipment at the US Championship.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 11 Apr 2007 02:40:57
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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>>Now you can shut up on this non issue!! MonRoi has responded in an
>>entirely
>> satisfactory manner.
>
> Sorry, but this is not entirely satisfactory. The USCF Executive board
> does NOT agree that Monroi must be given credit for making available
> the games from the US Championship. Other online services such as
> chessbase.com and ICC have every legal right to copy the games and to
> broadcast them on their own websites.
Where is the legal right established?
Does ESPN have the right to show sports highlights or do they need
permission?
Sure, you can publish a set of moves without copyright problems, but don't
add the player names or event then, since that's not part of the score.
I think it's great that MonRoi is doing what Lasker dreamed of being done
over 100 years ago!
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 10 Apr 2007 10:18:58
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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At 12:40 PM 4/10/2007 EDT, [email protected] wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/2007 12:37:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>Dear Bill,
>Please send me a copy of the Mon Roi agreement.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Joel Channing
>
> ditto, Don
I cannot get Hanken on the phone because right now he is flying back
to Los Angeles from the Foxwoods tournament.
Hanken told me that he and his girlfriend are catching an 11:00 AM
flight today from Providence RI to LAX.
As I recall, MonRoi is putting up some of the money to sponsor the US
Championship.
If that is true, we will have to give MonRoi their money back. Under
no circumstances can they be allowed to assert a copyright claim on
the game scores from the US Championship.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 10 Apr 2007 07:44:30
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A Serious Problem with MonRoi and the US Championship
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On Apr 10, 8:42 am, "samsloan" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Joe Lux has uncovered a serious problem with Monroi. If he did not
> discover it, he is the first to report it.
>
> It seems that two newspapers have refused to publish game scores that
> first appeared on the Monroi website, because MonRoi is claiming a
> copyright on the games.
> It is well established that scores of a chess game cannot be
> copyrighted. However, the USCF is in no position to go to court and
> fight a courtcase over this.
I believe it is well-established that *unannotated* games cannot be
copywritten.
> MonRoi is listed as a co-sponsor of the US Championship. The current
> rules REQUIRE the use of MonRoi at the US Championship.
>
> However, we expect the games of the US Championship to have widspread
> media publicity. If MonRoi asserts a copyright claim, even an invalid
> claim, that will slow down or hault the publicity we expect to gain
> from the US Championship.
Why?
> I see no choice in the matter: We must tell MonRoi to stop asserting
> any claim to copyright of any scores of chess games. Failing that, we
> must BAN the use of MonRoi in any chess tournament, including the US
> Chess Championship.
>
It's a non-issue Sam. If the games are unannotated, then they have no
claim. Period. Your dialog of 'must tell MonRoi..' and 'BAN the use of
MonRoi...' is far too aggressive in nature and lacks any useful
compromise.
This is a big part of your 'Bull In the China Shop', Table-Pounding
mentality.
You should seek a reasonable compromise first.
Have you spoken to MonRoi? You represent the USCF, Don't you? I think
you should take up the banner and get into a useful dialog with
MonRoi.
We wait to hear your progress in this matter. Thanks again Sam for
taking this issue on. The entire USCF membership is counting on you.
Regards,
k
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