Main
Date: 27 May 2007 17:40:06
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

ChessBase for example?

This new, forthcoming, Grandmaster -- does anyone have details on it?

DSH







 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?


 
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?


  
Date: 29 May 2007 11:23:48
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
tin Brown <

 
Date: 27 May 2007 18:48:32
From:
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
> Time & Money Constraints? "We have to ship next week" sorts of barriers?

Sometimes. Other times it's a cost-benefit situation; is it worth it
to fix this or to work on something else....

jm



  
Date: 28 May 2007 02:54:00
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
Part of the problem seems to be that these companies are GAMES companies --
not just CHESS SOFTWARE companies.

DSH

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>> Time & Money Constraints? "We have to ship next week" sorts of barriers?
>
> Sometimes. Other times it's a cost-benefit situation; is it worth it
> to fix this or to work on something else....
>
> jm




   
Date: 05 Jun 2007 04:42:39
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
28.05.2007 03:54, D. Spencer Hines:
> Part of the problem seems to be that these companies are GAMES companies --
> not just CHESS SOFTWARE companies.

What shall be the meaning of this rek? That the programming of games
is somehow more amateurish than of "real" software? Do you actually
think that for instance Microsoft does it differently?


    
Date: 05 Jun 2007 03:49:45
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
I'd prefer a firm that just focuses on CHESS computer software.

Chessmaster started out that way?

DSH

"Ralf Callenberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> 28.05.2007 03:54, D. Spencer Hines:

>> Part of the problem seems to be that these companies are GAMES
>> companies -- not just CHESS SOFTWARE companies.
>
> What shall be the meaning of this rek? That the programming of games is
> somehow more amateurish than of "real" software? Do you actually think
> that for instance Microsoft does it differently?




     
Date: 05 Jun 2007 06:24:27
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
05.06.2007 04:49, D. Spencer Hines:
> I'd prefer a firm that just focuses on CHESS computer software.
>
> Chessmaster started out that way?

What I read, Chessmaster was always a product developed by a company
that produced other kind of software as well. But is it necessarily of
an advantage quality wise that a company starts out with two or three
guys (as Chessbase) in contrast to some guys working inside a bigger
company? In a company with broader horizons there might be more advanced
infrastructure and technical know how available, increasing the
probability of higher quality.

Greetings,
Ralf


      
Date: 05 Jun 2007 05:33:24
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
Hmmmmmm...

Where are you in Germany?

DSH

"Ralf Callenberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> 05.06.2007 04:49, D. Spencer Hines:

>> I'd prefer a firm that just focuses on CHESS computer software.
>>
>> Chessmaster started out that way?
>
> What I read, Chessmaster was always a product developed by a company that
> produced other kind of software as well. But is it necessarily of an
> advantage quality wise that a company starts out with two or three guys
> (as Chessbase) in contrast to some guys working inside a bigger company?
> In a company with broader horizons there might be more advanced
> infrastructure and technical know how available, increasing the
> probability of higher quality.
>
> Greetings,
> Ralf




 
Date: 27 May 2007 13:43:02
From:
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
> How did the "Small Fonts Only" and "No ClearType unless you can put up with
> magenta fonts" decisions get made?

The Small Fonts decision was made simply because it would have been
too much work to fix it at the time it was discovered. The ClearType
issue wasn't discovered until after the program shipped. Once again,
it was decided to simply add it to the FAQ rather than take the time
to try to fix it.

> CM 9000 doesn't seem to be fully Windows XP friendly. XP was just too new
> at the time CM 9000 was being developed? No close exchange with Microsoft?

Very few developers of PC games have a "close exchange with
Microsoft", especially if the game is not a full-screen DirectX game.
XP had been out for quite some time before CM9000, and the game
"supports" XP in the sense that it will work for almost everybody who
has that platform. However, there are a few less-used features in XP
that CM does not handle properly, just like there are lots of video
cards from older/less well-known card makers that may not work well
with CM.

> This "Grandmaster" product -- what can we expect from it?

No clue. The only thing I've heard is that there will be a new version
of the chess engine that supports multiple-processor PCs. But that
isn't confirmed.

> I'd still prefer to have the 10,000 GM games all in one well-engineered
> package -- with high resolution boards and chess pieces -- plus "Special
> Features" as appropriate. Is there anything like that on the ket? Or am
> I just an odd ball -- not even worthy of fringe ket efforts?

I honestly don't know. I'd check around on the ChessBase site. That
would be your best bet.

jm



  
Date: 27 May 2007 21:52:21
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>> How did the "Small Fonts Only" and "No ClearType unless you can put up
>> with magenta fonts" decisions get made?
>
> The Small Fonts decision was made simply because it would have been
> too much work to fix it at the time it was discovered. The ClearType
> issue wasn't discovered until after the program shipped. Once again,
> it was decided to simply add it to the FAQ rather than take the time
> to try to fix it.

Time & Money Constraints? "We have to ship next week" sorts of barriers?

>> CM 9000 doesn't seem to be fully Windows XP friendly. XP was just too
>> new at the time CM 9000 was being developed? No close exchange with
>> Microsoft?
>
> Very few developers of PC games have a "close exchange with
> Microsoft", especially if the game is not a full-screen DirectX game.
> XP had been out for quite some time before CM9000, and the game
> "supports" XP in the sense that it will work for almost everybody who
> has that platform. However, there are a few less-used features in XP
> that CM does not handle properly, just like there are lots of video
> cards from older/less well-known card makers that may not work well
> with CM.

Yes.

>> This "Grandmaster" product -- what can we expect from it?
>
> No clue. The only thing I've heard is that there will be a new version
> of the chess engine that supports multiple-processor PCs. But that
> isn't confirmed.

I sure hope they make it less clunky -- with a more sophisticated, smoother
interface than CM 9000.

>> I'd still prefer to have the 10,000 GM games all in one well-engineered
>> package -- with high resolution boards and chess pieces -- plus "Special
>> Features" as appropriate. Is there anything like that on the ket? Or
>> am I just an odd ball -- not even worthy of fringe ket efforts?
>
> I honestly don't know. I'd check around on the ChessBase site. That
> would be your best bet.

If you and others here don't know about it then it probably doesn't exist.
Folks no doubt "make their own".

DSH




 
Date: 27 May 2007 12:52:41
From:
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
> > To actually find "10,000 historical games, extensively annotated,
> > analyzed and discussed", you'd have to search far and wide. Most chess
> > databases just provide the games without annotations. I would also
> > question anybody's belief that they could truly "study" that many
> > games.
>
> I'd prefer to have ALL the games of GM's that have been recorded.

As I said, you'll have to do a lot of searching if you want the games
annotated. There are many databases (some free) that have all GM
games. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of games, though.

> Did you write the code for CM 9000 and CM 10000?

A UbiSoft Romanian team did CM10 and I assume is still developing
Chessmaster, at least for the PC. I was the Software Project Manager
for CM9 and CM8. I was a Programmer for CM7, CM6 and CM5500. There
were many people involved in writing the code and compiling the
content of the Chessmaster series.

jm



  
Date: 27 May 2007 21:07:55
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>> > To actually find "10,000 historical games, extensively annotated,
>> > analyzed and discussed", you'd have to search far and wide. Most chess
>> > databases just provide the games without annotations. I would also
>> > question anybody's belief that they could truly "study" that many
>> > games.
>>
>> I'd prefer to have ALL the games of GM's that have been recorded.
>
> As I said, you'll have to do a lot of searching if you want the games
> annotated. There are many databases (some free) that have all GM
> games. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of games, though.
>
>> Did you write the code for CM 9000 and CM 10000?
>
> A UbiSoft Romanian team did CM10 and I assume is still developing
> Chessmaster, at least for the PC. I was the Software Project Manager
> for CM9 and CM8. I was a Programmer for CM7, CM6 and CM5500. There
> were many people involved in writing the code and compiling the
> content of the Chessmaster series.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations!

How did the "Small Fonts Only" and "No ClearType unless you can put up with
magenta fonts" decisions get made?

CM 9000 doesn't seem to be fully Windows XP friendly. XP was just too new
at the time CM 9000 was being developed? No close exchange with Microsoft?

This "Grandmaster" product -- what can we expect from it?

I'd still prefer to have the 10,000 GM games all in one well-engineered
package -- with high resolution boards and chess pieces -- plus "Special
Features" as appropriate. Is there anything like that on the ket? Or am
I just an odd ball -- not even worthy of fringe ket efforts?

I'd even settle for 5,000, in a pinch.

DSH




   
Date: 29 May 2007 09:33:34
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> I'd still prefer to have the 10,000 GM games all in one
> well-engineered package -- with high resolution boards and chess
> pieces -- plus "Special Features" as appropriate. Is there anything
> like that on the ket? Or am I just an odd ball -- not even
> worthy of fringe ket efforts?

Fritz comes with a database of about half a million games but they're
not annotated. Seriously, though, you're not going to find a product
with 10,000 annotated games in it or, if you do, you're not going to
be able to afford it.

Look at it this way: a book might have 50-100 annotated games in it
and cost, say, $25. You're asking for 100-200 books' worth so you
should expect to pay $2500-$5000 for that. Even if you're prepared to
pay that much, I doubt you'll find enough other people to make the
product financially viable.

And 10,000 games at two games a day is nearly fourteen years' worth.
Now, I realise you're probably going to pick and choose, throwing away
stuff in openings you don't play, but 10,000 really is a huge number
of games.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Psychotic Microsoft Boss (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a middle manager that's really
hard to use but it wants to kill you!


 
Date: 27 May 2007 10:47:07
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
It really depends on what you are trying to do...

There are several different "families" or packages of chess software.

There is chessbase, shredder, chess assistant, chessmaster, arena, and
winboard, and shortly rybka.

Personally, I use the Fritz family. Amazon has a current screaming deal
for 19.99 for fritz 9, which makes it cheap enough to be wrong and check
it out.

The fritz family tend to work well for me, up to my limited needs for
database, and comes with a free year of playchess. And it also runs
most major engines, including Rybka (and the free one, is quite good).

There are supposedly some stability issues out of the box (I had never
run into them), but if you go to playchess after it is installed, you
should get updated past those. And I don't have refuel issues either,
which is nice, since my computer *is* a laptop.

The other thing that is nice about fritz, is that you can pretty much
copy and paste into the program pretty much anything, anyone calls a PGN
or a game, and it tends to work. (I have yet to make it fail, but it has
never been my goal). This is a great feature for looking at other
material, games of of websites, and stuff.

Playchess is also pretty good, with the only real exception is that it
is not ICC. And they are not completely replaceable. But the chess
media stuff is pretty darn good. But so is Josh in chessmaster I hear?
(I do remember the Power Queen, and I am sure that she gave me about
200 points of strength way back when). It is too bad that the education
side of the ket still hasn't really taken off yet.


  
Date: 27 May 2007 20:11:29
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
Very Interesting.

Thanks

DSH

Please see below.

"JohnnyT" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It really depends on what you are trying to do...
>
> There are several different "families" or packages of chess software.
>
> There is chessbase, shredder, chess assistant, chessmaster, arena, and
> winboard, and shortly rybka.
>
> Personally, I use the Fritz family. Amazon has a current screaming deal
> for 19.99 for fritz 9, which makes it cheap enough to be wrong and check
> it out.

Intriguing.

> The fritz family tend to work well for me, up to my limited needs for
> database, and comes with a free year of playchess. And it also runs most
> major engines, including Rybka (and the free one, is quite good).
>
> There are supposedly some stability issues out of the box (I had never run
> into them), but if you go to playchess after it is installed, you should
> get updated past those. And I don't have refuel issues either, which is
> nice, since my computer *is* a laptop.

"Refuel issues"?

> The other thing that is nice about fritz, is that you can pretty much copy
> and paste into the program pretty much anything, anyone calls a PGN or a
> game, and it tends to work. (I have yet to make it fail, but it has never
> been my goal). This is a great feature for looking at other material,
> games of of websites, and stuff.
>
> Playchess is also pretty good, with the only real exception is that it is
> not ICC. And they are not completely replaceable. But the chess media
> stuff is pretty darn good. But so is Josh in chessmaster I hear? (I do
> remember the Power Queen, and I am sure that she gave me about 200 points
> of strength way back when). It is too bad that the education side of the
> ket still hasn't really taken off yet.




   
Date: 29 May 2007 09:36:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
D. Spencer Hines <[email protected] > wrote:
> "JohnnyT" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> And I don't have refuel issues either, which is nice, since my
>> computer *is* a laptop.
>
> "Refuel issues"?

Having to put the CD in the drive. Fritz (well, Fritz 8, at least)
only asks for the CD if you change engines. Since I never want to use
any of the other engines supplied (an old version of Crafty, Comet and
maybe a couple of others I don't recall), I never need to insert the
CD.

Well, that's not quite true -- it's asked me to insert the disc two or
three times in the last two or three years.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Disgusting Mexi-Tool (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a handy household tool that comes from
Mexico but it'll turn your stomach!


    
Date: 29 May 2007 10:22:19
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
Thanks.

That's helpful to know.

DSH

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:-SF*[email protected]...

> D. Spencer Hines <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "JohnnyT" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> And I don't have refuel issues either, which is nice, since my
>>> computer *is* a laptop.
>>
>> "Refuel issues"?
>
> Having to put the CD in the drive. Fritz (well, Fritz 8, at least)
> only asks for the CD if you change engines. Since I never want to use
> any of the other engines supplied (an old version of Crafty, Comet and
> maybe a couple of others I don't recall), I never need to insert the
> CD.
>
> Well, that's not quite true -- it's asked me to insert the disc two or
> three times in the last two or three years.
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Disgusting Mexi-Tool (TM): it's
> like
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a handy household tool that comes
> from
> Mexico but it'll turn your stomach!




 
Date: 27 May 2007 10:42:09
From:
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
On May 27, 10:20 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected] > wrote:
> I'm particularly interested in studying historical games.
>
> I like the 3D chessboards in Chessmaster -- but I'd prefer a much smoother
> and more sophisticated interface, with better looking chess pieces in higher
> resolution -- as well as getting rid of this ridiculous convention of only
> using small fonts and no ClearType, unless you want all the fonts to be in
> magenta.
>
> 10,000 historical games, extensively annotated, analyzed and discussed,
> would be something I'd appreciate.
>
> DSH

Chessmaster has about 800-900 GM annotated classic games in the
Library, plus another few dozen audio annotated games. AFAIK, that is
more than you'll get in any other chess program. The quality of the
text-annotated games in CM, in terms of the number of moves that are
annotated, is spotty. But they're all annotated by GMs.

To actually find "10,000 historical games, extensively annotated,
analyzed and discussed", you'd have to search far and wide. Most chess
databases just provide the games without annotations. I would also
question anybody's belief that they could truly "study" that many
games.

And the ClearType and Small Fonts issues in CM aren't "conventions";
they are simply shortcomings (or bugs, if you prefer) in the GUI. The
Small Fonts issue was fixed in CM10, but I don't know about the
ClearType issue.

jm



  
Date: 27 May 2007 20:07:43
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> On May 27, 10:20 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I'm particularly interested in studying historical games.
>>
>> I like the 3D chessboards in Chessmaster -- but I'd prefer a much
>> smoother
>> and more sophisticated interface, with better looking chess pieces in
>> higher
>> resolution -- as well as getting rid of this ridiculous convention of
>> only
>> using small fonts and no ClearType, unless you want all the fonts to be
>> in
>> magenta.
>>
>> 10,000 historical games, extensively annotated, analyzed and discussed,
>> would be something I'd appreciate.
>>
>> DSH
>
> Chessmaster has about 800-900 GM annotated classic games in the
> Library, plus another few dozen audio annotated games. AFAIK, that is
> more than you'll get in any other chess program. The quality of the
> text-annotated games in CM, in terms of the number of moves that are
> annotated, is spotty. But they're all annotated by GMs.

Yes, "spotty" indeed.

> To actually find "10,000 historical games, extensively annotated,
> analyzed and discussed", you'd have to search far and wide. Most chess
> databases just provide the games without annotations. I would also
> question anybody's belief that they could truly "study" that many
> games.

I'd prefer to have ALL the games of GM's that have been recorded.

> And the ClearType and Small Fonts issues in CM aren't "conventions";
> they are simply shortcomings (or bugs, if you prefer) in the GUI. The
> Small Fonts issue was fixed in CM10, but I don't know about the
> ClearType issue.
>
> jm

Did you write the code for CM 9000 and CM 10000?

DSH




 
Date: 27 May 2007 10:05:27
From:
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
On May 27, 9:40 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
>
> ChessBase for example?
>
> This new, forthcoming, Grandmaster -- does anyone have details on it?
>
> DSH

You're going to have to define "better" in terms of what you're
looking for and, most importantly, how strong a chess player you
already are. If you are a Class C USCF player or lower (1600 rating)
then I would say that Chessmaster is definitely your best choice for
improving your game, priily due to the huge amount of tutorial
content.

If you're Class B or higher, then one of the ChessBase programs are
probably going to be better suited to you (Fritz and Shredder are the
two most popular), coupled with a full-featured database
(Chessmaster's weakest feature, IMHO).

Of course, this assumes that you are priily going to be using only
ONE chess program. Personally, if I was serious about chess and trying
to improve, I'd at least have Chessmaster, Fritz and ChessBase.

jm



  
Date: 27 May 2007 18:20:46
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
I'm particularly interested in studying historical games.

I like the 3D chessboards in Chessmaster -- but I'd prefer a much smoother
and more sophisticated interface, with better looking chess pieces in higher
resolution -- as well as getting rid of this ridiculous convention of only
using small fonts and no ClearType, unless you want all the fonts to be in
magenta.

10,000 historical games, extensively annotated, analyzed and discussed,
would be something I'd appreciate.

DSH

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> On May 27, 9:40 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
>>
>> ChessBase for example?
>>
>> This new, forthcoming, Grandmaster -- does anyone have details on it?
>>
>> DSH
>
> You're going to have to define "better" in terms of what you're
> looking for and, most importantly, how strong a chess player you
> already are. If you are a Class C USCF player or lower (1600 rating)
> then I would say that Chessmaster is definitely your best choice for
> improving your game, priily due to the huge amount of tutorial
> content.
>
> If you're Class B or higher, then one of the ChessBase programs are
> probably going to be better suited to you (Fritz and Shredder are the
> two most popular), coupled with a full-featured database
> (Chessmaster's weakest feature, IMHO).
>
> Of course, this assumes that you are priily going to be using only
> ONE chess program. Personally, if I was serious about chess and trying
> to improve, I'd at least have Chessmaster, Fritz and ChessBase.
>
> jm




   
Date: 28 May 2007 17:05:26
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?



D. Spencer Hines wrote:

>I like the 3D chessboards in Chessmaster -- but I'd prefer a much smoother
>and more sophisticated interface, with better looking chess pieces in higher
>resolution

I set up a chess set next to my computer. Full 3-D, and the
resolution is great!

I hope this helps. :)


Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >



    
Date: 28 May 2007 18:11:54
From: D. Spencer Hines
Subject: Re: Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?
<G >

You carry it with you when you travel and want to play a game on your
laptop? <g >

DSH

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
>>I like the 3D chessboards in Chessmaster -- but I'd prefer a much smoother
>>and more sophisticated interface, with better looking chess pieces in
>>higher
>>resolution
>
> I set up a chess set next to my computer. Full 3-D, and the
> resolution is great!
>
> I hope this helps. :)
>
>
> Guy Macon
> <http://www.guymacon.com/>