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Main
Date: 15 Apr 2007 03:11:16
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
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Hello - my interest in chess and chess-playing programs has now peaked
again and before leaving "the scene" several years ago I was in the
process of decoding/hacking the .CBH (and family) of file-formats in
order to support the format in a new chess database program I was
developing.
Can anyone tell me if any progress has been made decoding the CBH file-
format?
Also can anyone, who uses chess databases, tell me if there is any
"need" for yet another chess database program? I would make the
program freely available, though perhaps not the source code, as I
have with my previous contributions to the community...
Thanks in advance,
Andy Duplain
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Date: 26 Apr 2007 03:06:13
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
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On Apr 24, 5:39 pm, "Mike Leahy" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> "raylopez99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 19, 7:38 pm, "Mike Leahy" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >> > Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
>
> >> I don't know about a world-class GUI but...www.chessopeningssoftware.com
>
> >> Mike Leahy
> >> "The Database Man!"
>
> > Hey Mike Leahy--I would upgrade my Bookup if it was written to run a
> > bit faster--just a hint. Right now the pieces 'slide' too slow (yes,
> > I played with the settings). All in all a very useful program
> > however, I try and use it even above and beyond the move tree of Fritz/
> > Chessbase, etc.
>
> > Best of luck on your new project, I look forward to seeing the
> > commerical version.
>
> Thanks.
>
> I'm curious about your pieces sliding too slow. Do you have the latest
> version?
>
> You might download the beta of Chess Openings Wizard - Express and try the
> piece animation settings with the all-new graphics.
>
> Mike Leahy
> "The Database Man!"www.chessopeningssoftware.com- Hide quoted text -
>
I'm using Bookup 1.5.2, written in the mid 1990s. I set the piece
sliding parameter under "Advanced" to zero and it works fine.
I tried the Chess Openings Wizard Beta but I disinstalled it, when I
found the opening book cannot be modified. I like my old Bookup
(registered version) since I can add move variations. I would
consider upgrading to the new Wizard when it comes out of Beta if I
can add my own moves, and if it has a large opening book (so I would
not have to add moves, which is a pain). In the Wizard, I liked the
interface, the metallic look, and I hope it can import PGN games so if
one sees a good TN opening you can import that PGN game into your
bookup tree.
Best of luck, I look forwrd to your program when it comes out.
RL
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Date: 20 Apr 2007 00:25:31
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 19, 7:38 pm, "Mike Leahy" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>
> > Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
>
> I don't know about a world-class GUI but...www.chessopeningssoftware.com
>
> Mike Leahy
> "The Database Man!"
Hey Mike Leahy--I would upgrade my Bookup if it was written to run a
bit faster--just a hint. Right now the pieces 'slide' too slow (yes,
I played with the settings). All in all a very useful program
however, I try and use it even above and beyond the move tree of Fritz/
Chessbase, etc.
Best of luck on your new project, I look forward to seeing the
commerical version.
RL
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Date: 25 Apr 2007 00:39:12
From: Mike Leahy
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 19, 7:38 pm, "Mike Leahy" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
>>
>> I don't know about a world-class GUI but...www.chessopeningssoftware.com
>>
>> Mike Leahy
>> "The Database Man!"
>
> Hey Mike Leahy--I would upgrade my Bookup if it was written to run a
> bit faster--just a hint. Right now the pieces 'slide' too slow (yes,
> I played with the settings). All in all a very useful program
> however, I try and use it even above and beyond the move tree of Fritz/
> Chessbase, etc.
>
> Best of luck on your new project, I look forward to seeing the
> commerical version.
Thanks.
I'm curious about your pieces sliding too slow. Do you have the latest
version?
You might download the beta of Chess Openings Wizard - Express and try the
piece animation settings with the all-new graphics.
Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.chessopeningssoftware.com
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 14:42:49
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 17, 8:02 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> On Apr 17, 10:10 am, raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > <plonk> ... JMR killfiled.
>
> Just out of curiositiy: I see, that you are posting via Google. How do
> you killfile somebody when using Google Groups?
>
> Greetings,
> Ralf
I have no idea Ralf. I just thought it sounded cool.
RL
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Date: 18 Apr 2007 00:30:39
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
17.04.2007 23:42, raylopez99:
>>> <plonk> ... JMR killfiled.
>> Just out of curiositiy: I see, that you are posting via Google. How do
>> you killfile somebody when using Google Groups?
[...]
> I have no idea Ralf.
Probably because it's not possible.
> I just thought it sounded cool.
I knew.
Greetings,
Ralf
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 08:02:06
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 17, 10:10 am, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> <plonk> ... JMR killfiled.
Just out of curiositiy: I see, that you are posting via Google. How do
you killfile somebody when using Google Groups?
Greetings,
Ralf
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 07:01:02
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 17, 3:40 am, "Larry Page" <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> >> JMR
>
> > "RayLopez" is a dipshit wannabe computer guy and chess playing patzer.
> > This fuckwit can't figure out how to check his email without mommy to help
> > him.
>
> > LP
>
> I concur- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
How lame, flame(r)! YOU are are talking to yourself, LOL. Same
domain, same person replying to his own posts. What a clown. THanks
for the laughs bozo!
RL
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 01:10:55
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 3:59 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> As for viruses, use a decent and updated anti-virus program and learn how to
> use your computer beyond the Windows Kindergarten mode, ie; learn how to use
> netstat and become knowledgeable as to what hosts you should be connected
> to. Learn what Windows task manager is and become knowledgeable about what
> processes should be running on your computer. Learn your way around the
> Windows registry, etc. I have no problems whatsoever with viruses, and I
> download between 50-100 GIGs of data every month.
>
> JMR
Ah JMR. You flame lame my fiend. Very lame. You should not be
flaming a potential ally like me, instead good form would have been to
give an actual war story of a virus that you blocked, rather than
generic advice. The above reply shows you don't actually download
warez, but are just a flaming poser, and you don't know how to form
alliances in the virtual world, not unlike your hapless social life in
the real world. Posting from Mommy's PC in the basement eh? Those
school bullies shaped your adult life as well I see.
Drink or die JMR! (check out the 1988 Dutch version of "The
Vanishing" to understand this reference --based on a story 'The Golden
Egg' written by chess writer Tim Krabbe and involving warez wannabes
in the real world)
<plonk > ... JMR killfiled.
RL
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:06:58
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 16, 3:59 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> As for viruses, use a decent and updated anti-virus program and learn how
>> to
>> use your computer beyond the Windows Kindergarten mode, ie; learn how to
>> use
>> netstat and become knowledgeable as to what hosts you should be connected
>> to. Learn what Windows task manager is and become knowledgeable about
>> what
>> processes should be running on your computer. Learn your way around the
>> Windows registry, etc. I have no problems whatsoever with viruses, and I
>> download between 50-100 GIGs of data every month.
>>
>> JMR
>
> Ah JMR. You flame lame my fiend.
It's not a flame moron. I posted facts and information. I addressed
everything you asked about....file sharing legalities, viruses, etc. What
words didn't you understand? And i'm not your friend. Don't be taking
liberties like that with me.
>You should not be
> flaming a potential ally like me,
I have no use for a lower intellect creature like you as an "ally". Dogs at
least have superior smell and hearing. What do you have to compensate for
your inferior brain? Again moron, in no way, shape, or form, was my post a
"flame". I responded to your questions and posted facts. What concepts were
too difficult for you to understand?
I even went so far as to explain to you, in the way that an elementary
school child could grasp, why viruses are not a problem for someone who
actually knows how to use their computer. How incredibly stupid do you have
to be to not understand how to do some simple research and discover some
basic DOS commands and Windows utilities that I made reference to? Do you
want me to hold your hand and tell you what hotkeys you need to press in
order to bring up the Windows task manager? Seriously moron, how can you be
this unbelievably DUMB yet still be able to figure out how to access the
internet?
Your admission of living in your parents basement and having no social life,
and of having been abused by bullies growing up has been duly noted, but to
be honest, nobody here gives a flying fuck about you and your pathetic life.
Another "biggie" word for you to look up moron....PROJECTION!
JMR
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:10:58
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:6%0Vh.86556$6m4.79167@pd7urf1no...
>
> "raylopez99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Apr 16, 3:59 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As for viruses, use a decent and updated anti-virus program and learn
>>> how to
>>> use your computer beyond the Windows Kindergarten mode, ie; learn how to
>>> use
>>> netstat and become knowledgeable as to what hosts you should be
>>> connected
>>> to. Learn what Windows task manager is and become knowledgeable about
>>> what
>>> processes should be running on your computer. Learn your way around the
>>> Windows registry, etc. I have no problems whatsoever with viruses, and I
>>> download between 50-100 GIGs of data every month.
>>>
>>> JMR
>>
>> Ah JMR. You flame lame my fiend.
>
> It's not a flame moron. I posted facts and information. I addressed
> everything you asked about....file sharing legalities, viruses, etc. What
> words didn't you understand? And i'm not your friend. Don't be taking
> liberties like that with me.
>
>>You should not be
>> flaming a potential ally like me,
>
> I have no use for a lower intellect creature like you as an "ally". Dogs
> at least have superior smell and hearing. What do you have to compensate
> for your inferior brain? Again moron, in no way, shape, or form, was my
> post a "flame". I responded to your questions and posted facts. What
> concepts were too difficult for you to understand?
>
> I even went so far as to explain to you, in the way that an elementary
> school child could grasp, why viruses are not a problem for someone who
> actually knows how to use their computer. How incredibly stupid do you
> have to be to not understand how to do some simple research and discover
> some basic DOS commands and Windows utilities that I made reference to? Do
> you want me to hold your hand and tell you what hotkeys you need to press
> in order to bring up the Windows task manager? Seriously moron, how can
> you be this unbelievably DUMB yet still be able to figure out how to
> access the internet?
>
> Your admission of living in your parents basement and having no social
> life, and of having been abused by bullies growing up has been duly noted,
> but to be honest, nobody here gives a flying fuck about you and your
> pathetic life. Another "biggie" word for you to look up
> moron....PROJECTION!
>
> JMR
>
"RayLopez" is a dipshit wannabe computer guy and chess playing patzer. This
fuckwit can't figure out how to check his email without mommy to help him.
LP
|
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:40:08
From: Larry Page
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:S21Vh.87268$aG1.39121@pd7urf3no...
> "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:6%0Vh.86556$6m4.79167@pd7urf1no...
>>
>> "raylopez99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Apr 16, 3:59 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for viruses, use a decent and updated anti-virus program and learn
>>>> how to
>>>> use your computer beyond the Windows Kindergarten mode, ie; learn how
>>>> to use
>>>> netstat and become knowledgeable as to what hosts you should be
>>>> connected
>>>> to. Learn what Windows task manager is and become knowledgeable about
>>>> what
>>>> processes should be running on your computer. Learn your way around the
>>>> Windows registry, etc. I have no problems whatsoever with viruses, and
>>>> I
>>>> download between 50-100 GIGs of data every month.
>>>>
>>>> JMR
>>>
>>> Ah JMR. You flame lame my fiend.
>>
>> It's not a flame moron. I posted facts and information. I addressed
>> everything you asked about....file sharing legalities, viruses, etc. What
>> words didn't you understand? And i'm not your friend. Don't be taking
>> liberties like that with me.
>>
>>>You should not be
>>> flaming a potential ally like me,
>>
>> I have no use for a lower intellect creature like you as an "ally". Dogs
>> at least have superior smell and hearing. What do you have to compensate
>> for your inferior brain? Again moron, in no way, shape, or form, was my
>> post a "flame". I responded to your questions and posted facts. What
>> concepts were too difficult for you to understand?
>>
>> I even went so far as to explain to you, in the way that an elementary
>> school child could grasp, why viruses are not a problem for someone who
>> actually knows how to use their computer. How incredibly stupid do you
>> have to be to not understand how to do some simple research and discover
>> some basic DOS commands and Windows utilities that I made reference to?
>> Do you want me to hold your hand and tell you what hotkeys you need to
>> press in order to bring up the Windows task manager? Seriously moron, how
>> can you be this unbelievably DUMB yet still be able to figure out how to
>> access the internet?
>>
>> Your admission of living in your parents basement and having no social
>> life, and of having been abused by bullies growing up has been duly
>> noted, but to be honest, nobody here gives a flying fuck about you and
>> your pathetic life. Another "biggie" word for you to look up
>> moron....PROJECTION!
>>
>> JMR
>>
>
>
> "RayLopez" is a dipshit wannabe computer guy and chess playing patzer.
> This fuckwit can't figure out how to check his email without mommy to help
> him.
>
> LP
>
I concur
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 01:01:33
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 3:02 pm, "Jon" <[email protected] > wrote:
> "raylopez99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Apr 16, 5:08 am, [email protected] wrote:
> >> I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
> >> long-term memory.
>
> > Human memory not machine memory I presume?
>
> Exactly. Basically the concept is a 'flashcard' training system using the
> concepts of 'active recall' and 'spaced repetition'.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_recallhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetitionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve
>
> Individual flashcards could be used for say:
> 1. Opening training ('What is White's repertoire move?')
> 2. Tactical training ('White to move and win')
> 3. Endgame training ('White to move: does he win or draw?' 'How should White
> proceed'), etc.
> etc.
>
> The program would then present these flashcards at specific intervals to
> most efficiently target long-term memory.
>
> I'm using a commercial spaced repetition program called 'SuperMemo'
> (http://www.supermemo.com/) for learning Italian. Actually it's the PalmOS
> version:http://www.mapletop.com/. This is the single thing that has helped
> me make steady, consistent, painless progress.
>
> The program's great for text based Q&A stuff but it's really a slog
> producing diagrams etc for chess. A custom solution with interactive chess
> board and PGN import wizards would be much better.
>
> --
> Remove numbers from email address to reply
Sounds good. I'm sure you're aware of the research that shows
improving memory helps ward off Alheimers brain wasting disease in
seniors. The research specifically mentioned doing crossword puzzles
and playing chess, as well as solving logic problems, etc.
RL
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Date: 16 Apr 2007 13:29:44
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 9:54 pm, "raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote:
> No Ralf I was actually flame baiting you. In literature it's known as
> being a "polarizing author" and it's actually a common tactic in
> getting readers to read and respond to you.
You actually thought this was needed? Posts like this usually k the
end of a discussion from my point of view. If I hadn't assumed, that
this was a reaction to the tone of my previous post, this would have
been the end of me talking seriously to you. You might not use this
tactic, except you like to talk to people like Jason Repa who loves to
flame baite.
> As for Windows functions not necessary, I agree that you can mix and
> match 'generic' STL code with Windows code, though Windows code is
> often easier for me (a hobby programmer) since it's more typesafe and
> has (seems to me) lots of extra features to make it safe during
> runtime. For instance I always try and use the Windows Forms version
> of a linked list, binary tree, map, etc whenever possible rather than
> my "home grown" versions of the same that I developed from scratch
> when I programmed in C and then C++ (console mode), since they seem to
> be more "robust".
Ah, now I got it (I think): you are talking about MFC!! OK, usually
one doesn't call it "Windows Framework" (although it was for a long
time the most important framework on Windows). With Windows framework
I associate things like the Win32 API, the registry, COM and such nice
Windows stuff.
No, it is indeed quite sure, that they don't use it. Either they wrote
their own stuff or they might use the STL.
Greetings,
Ralf
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Date: 16 Apr 2007 13:10:24
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 3:59 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Try dropping the sarcastic tone if you're asking people to help you.
Sorry, but I was not asking people to help me, just flame baiting
Ralf, though I did learn something in the process (chess programs
don't use SQL queries).
>
> >>> but, as you know better than I, you cannot use canned library
> >>> routines when writing a chess engine
>
> >> Chess engines are just an add-on to a chess DB.
>
> > "just" an add on for you, a programming God. FOr the rest of us
> > mortals it's a full time project.
>
> Just an add-on in the sense that, rather than writing a chess program
> from scratch, you simply call execute an existing chess engine and
> tell it which position to analyze. It's not trivial but it's not
> terribly difficult for a competent programmer and much of the
> necessary code has already been written.
To the extent you feel like it, please tell me how you call the
program--what API do you use, or are the programs binary executables
that have some sort of documentation to allow function calls from
within your source code? Or otherwise (like you can run an executable
from inside of a Windows program--forget the library routine but I've
done it once) Or do you compile source code like Crafty (in C I
think) into your source code?
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby
Hmm... I wonder if you're Dennis Richie: The founder of C, posing
under a slight variant of his real name? If so, you're wasting your
time here...nothing but trolls and Sam Sloan here...
RL
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Date: 17 Apr 2007 13:22:45
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just an add-on in the sense that, rather than writing a chess
>> program from scratch, you simply call execute an existing chess
>> engine and tell it which position to analyze. It's not trivial but
>> it's not terribly difficult for a competent programmer and much of
>> the necessary code has already been written.
>
> To the extent you feel like it, please tell me how you call the
> program
The basic scheme is to execute the chess engine as an ordinary
executable. The program that calls it can then pass commands to the
engine, read back its responses and display them appropriately. To be
honest, I've forgotten exactly how to do this but I could look it up
fast enough and it's not difficult.
> Hmm... I wonder if you're Dennis Richie: The founder of C, posing
> under a slight variant of his real name?
No but my initials are also DMR, which has occasionally meant I
thought people were talking about me when they were actually
discussing what Ritchie (note spelling, by the way) had said.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Simple Evil Composer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ pupil of Beethoven but it's genuinely
evil and it has no moving parts!
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Apr 2007 22:27:28
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
17.04.2007 14:22, David Richerby:
> No but my initials are also DMR, which has occasionally meant I
> thought people were talking about me when they were actually
> discussing what Ritchie (note spelling, by the way) had said.
Yeah, I know that. Always had the same feeling when the physics teacher
was talking about resistor-capacitor circuits.
Greetings,
Ralf
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 13:02:42
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 15, 4:09 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote:
> I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code because I
> haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase formats are more
> efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>
> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like something
> from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the functionality that CB9 has.
> Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however, just download it from a torrent or
> eDonkey network, or get a friend to burn you a copy. Last resort, buy a
> cheap copy for $20 from someone selling them, hint, hint.
>
> Chessbase has been in the chess software business for some time so they make
> some good products, but the company is being run by tyrants and thieves,
> they give you zero support and will literally steal your money if you
> purchase a playchess.com membership. Just take their software and don't pay
> anything.
>
> JMR
JMR-- I find your posts quite fascinating. Please tell us more about
how you can use eDonkey and bit torrent without either: (1) running
afoul of the law (like getting busted, not morally speaking); (2)
downloading viruses--I hear music companies flood these peer-to-peer
services with viruses; have you come across any so far?, and (3)
[reserved for future use]
RL
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 22:59:06
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 15, 4:09 pm, "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code because
>> I
>> haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase formats are more
>> efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>>
>> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
>> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like
>> something
>> from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the functionality that CB9
>> has.
>> Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however, just download it from a torrent
>> or
>> eDonkey network, or get a friend to burn you a copy. Last resort, buy a
>> cheap copy for $20 from someone selling them, hint, hint.
>>
>> Chessbase has been in the chess software business for some time so they
>> make
>> some good products, but the company is being run by tyrants and thieves,
>> they give you zero support and will literally steal your money if you
>> purchase a playchess.com membership. Just take their software and don't
>> pay
>> anything.
>>
>> JMR
>
> JMR-- I find your posts quite fascinating. Please tell us more about
> how you can use eDonkey and bit torrent without either: (1) running
> afoul of the law
It doesn't take a genius to see that I'm posting from a Canadian news server
there champ. Sorry that was too difficult of an investigative accomplishment
for you. There are no laws against file sharing in Canada.
Even if I was an american, (phew, shiver at the thought of living in that
sewer with a bunch of dumb hicks) I would still file share just as much, if
not more, than I do now. Ever hear of an anonymous proxy server? It's not
rocket science to cover your tracks on the internet.
As for viruses, use a decent and updated anti-virus program and learn how to
use your computer beyond the Windows Kindergarten mode, ie; learn how to use
netstat and become knowledgeable as to what hosts you should be connected
to. Learn what Windows task manager is and become knowledgeable about what
processes should be running on your computer. Learn your way around the
Windows registry, etc. I have no problems whatsoever with viruses, and I
download between 50-100 GIGs of data every month.
JMR
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 12:54:27
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 4:22 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> On Apr 16, 12:59 pm, David Richerby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Try dropping the sarcastic tone if you're asking people to help you.
>
> Ahem, I am afraid he regarded my answer partly as a bit arrogant. I
> don't blame him, you could read it indeed this way. Besides that, I
> didn't offer any help, just some side reks...
>
> Greetings,
> Ralf
No Ralf I was actually flame baiting you. In literature it's known as
being a "polarizing author" and it's actually a common tactic in
getting readers to read and respond to you. Also used in "guerilla
keting". Some people hate it, but as our "friend" (fiend) "I as
bitter but" knows, in this thread, it does work. Not to be confused
with shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.
BTW thanks for the explanation about dBs used in Chess--I didn't know
they did not use SQL. Very interesting. I earlier found out from
this forum that in a chess tree of moves the tree is not stored in
memory (I was planning, when I get around to building a chess playing
engine, to store the chess tree then traverse it, but apparently the
tree is so vast after 4-5 moves that storing it is impractical and
quite useless anyway--better to pare and prune it 'on the fly' as you
generate the best moves)
As for Windows functions not necessary, I agree that you can mix and
match 'generic' STL code with Windows code, though Windows code is
often easier for me (a hobby programmer) since it's more typesafe and
has (seems to me) lots of extra features to make it safe during
runtime. For instance I always try and use the Windows Forms version
of a linked list, binary tree, map, etc whenever possible rather than
my "home grown" versions of the same that I developed from scratch
when I programmed in C and then C++ (console mode), since they seem to
be more "robust". And I never did understand templates (except in the
trivial case of making for a type template) so I don't use
templates.
What I personally would like to see is a detailed (well commented)
pseudocode of a chess program--I once saw how knight moves are made
(extending the chess board so it includes extra squares outside the
8x8 board with 'negative' values) and was fascinated. Also I
understand the pseudocode behind min/max alpha/beta algorithm but
would like to see more in a well commented form, moreso than the usual
sources on the net (i.e. stuff like):
http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/html/Source_Engines.html is a list of most
of the available open source Winboard and UCI engines.
http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/html/enginesindex.htm has more detailed
information about these engines, including download links.
RL
|
| | |
Date: 17 Apr 2007 15:38:57
From: Michael Vondung
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr 2007 12:54:27 -0700, raylopez99 wrote:
> In literature it's known as
> being a "polarizing author" and it's actually a common tactic in
> getting readers to read and respond to you.
On usenet, it is simply called "a troll". :)
M.
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 12:41:22
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 5:08 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 12:06, David Richerby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
> > executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
> > source available, too. That way, anyone who's interested can help fix
> > bugs.
>
> Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to be
> the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
> project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
> up the baton.
>
> > Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
> > from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
> > Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
> > as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
> > portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
> > other operating system.
>
> Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
.NET is nice because it uses "delegates" rather than a 32 bit integer
"handle(s)" for handling events raised by the OS like mouse clicks
etc--consequently the library seems richer than MFC for the GUI.
Using either C# or C++.NET (the former seems more popular, but they
are largely the same thing, except for trivial stuff like . dot
operator vs - >, and everything in an instantiated class in C#) you can
build a decent GUI in about 1 week. Some excellent books on the C#, C+
+.NET is the Deitel series, and on C++.NET version 2.0 (a ver. 3.0
just came out, for Vista, but no books that I am aware of) is
Fraser's book; also for C#.NET ver. 2.0 is Chris Sells and M.
Weinhardt's book.
Also the Visual Studio is excellent when using the Forms library
because it allows not only 'manual' entry of common elements used in
building GUIs but has a 'drag and drop' feature. Even for example a
tree, of the kind used in MS Explorer to traverse a directory, is
'drag and drop' and takes five minutes to build. Only downside:
there's so much stuff in Forms that even with Help you have to resort
to asking others lots of questions online (that sometimes don't get
answered). So you have to keep plugging away and after a few tries
you succeed.
>
> I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
> long-term memory.
Human memory not machine memory I presume?
> I develop ASP.NET at work so am slowly reading up on
> Windows Forms .NET coding - basically continuing being involved
> in .NET for personal reasons. But the intention was to have separate
> components for stuff like PGN support, storage, GUI components, etc.
> That way a Mono developer could step in and provide a GTK# based front
> end and reuse the common stuff.
Sounds good. What is Mono? Sounds Linux. Lemme Google this...yep,
it's the communist penguin. As a MSFT shareholder I am against
communism in any form, especially when it has the potential to hurt my
stock.
RL
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 22:02:46
From: Jon
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 16, 5:08 am, [email protected] wrote:
>> I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
>> long-term memory.
>
> Human memory not machine memory I presume?
Exactly. Basically the concept is a 'flashcard' training system using the
concepts of 'active recall' and 'spaced repetition'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_recall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve
Individual flashcards could be used for say:
1. Opening training ('What is White's repertoire move?')
2. Tactical training ('White to move and win')
3. Endgame training ('White to move: does he win or draw?' 'How should White
proceed'), etc.
etc.
The program would then present these flashcards at specific intervals to
most efficiently target long-term memory.
I'm using a commercial spaced repetition program called 'SuperMemo'
(http://www.supermemo.com/) for learning Italian. Actually it's the PalmOS
version: http://www.mapletop.com/. This is the single thing that has helped
me make steady, consistent, painless progress.
The program's great for text based Q&A stuff but it's really a slog
producing diagrams etc for chess. A custom solution with interactive chess
board and PGN import wizards would be much better.
--
Remove numbers from email address to reply
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 08:23:41
From:
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 15:15, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Andy Duplain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
> >> Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
>
> > It seems alot like the MS version of Java?
>
> But without the wide cross-platform support. All of the disadvantages
> without the deal-winning advantage.
This is what I was particular seeking input for (Sorry if I'm
hijacking the thread :). Can you elaborate on what you think of the
cross-platform support?
Obviously Microsoft .NET is fine for Windows (and PocketPC).
Mono is targetting *nix platforms (including Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X)
and Windows.
http://www.mono-project.com/Supported_Platforms
Nothing for PalmOS AFAIK but looks like PalmOS may be Linux based in
the future.
Key differences seem for me to be:
* Mono will be playing continual catch-up as Microsoft release new
developments.
* Different GUI implementations (Windows Form vs GTK#) although looks
like Mono is targetting Windows Forms now (even on X11).
http://www.go-mono.com/archive/1.2/
Probably would be a different look for Linux users compared to GTK#
though.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Apr 2007 13:26:41
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
<[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> But without the wide cross-platform support. All of the
>> disadvantages without the deal-winning advantage.
>
> This is what I was particular seeking input for (Sorry if I'm
> hijacking the thread :). Can you elaborate on what you think of the
> cross-platform support?
I can't go into any great detail as I know very little about .NET.
But, as you say, support for .NET outside the world of Windows is not
provided by Microsoft and, as such, will always lag behind the latest
version and suffer from minor incompatibilities. Java, on the other
hand, has excellent cross-platform support, much of which is provided
by Sun istelf.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Transparent Impossible Spoon (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a piece of cutlery but it
can't exist and you can see right
through it!
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:58:36
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 15:35, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Andy Duplain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 16 Apr, 14:29, [email protected] wrote:
> >> Don't know anything about MFC programming and am only just starting on
> >> Windows Forms .NET. What features are required to 'make the GUI look
> >> worldclass'?
>
> > Something that was fast with a GUI that looks like current Microsoft
> > applications - The Office family, Visual Studio, etc.
>
> Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
Well those applications have a much nicer interface than ChessBase 9
which seems to be held up as being the utimate in chess databases.
IMO any application that uses textures to paint the background of the
application is written by someone who is interested in style over
content.
>
> >> The .NET CLR (common language runtime) does offer automatic memory
> >> management and garbage collection. Type safety is enforced by the
> >> compiler. So you'd expect less bugs compared to C/C++.
>
> > No - if the type safety is done by the compiler then it will be the
> > same as C/C++ (or certainly straight C++).
>
> C/C++ has hardly any type system worth speaking of, given that you can
> more or less cast anything to anything else. C# is much better in
> this respect and has a type system much closer to something like Java.
You can also cast anything you like in Java as well, and only during
runtime might you get an exception.... the point being that at
compile time you have the same level of safety...
>
> > I expect there is also considerable runtime type checking, if it's
> > anything like Java.
>
> There is quite a bit of run-time checking, I believe.
>
> > I don't think the implementation and style of license of this thing
> > is so important as these questions:
>
> > 1) Can I get some details from anyone about "closed" chess database
> > file formats.
> > 2) Is there a place for yet another chess database.
>
> > From what I've read so far, the questions to both seem to
> > negative....
>
> I would say, more accurately, that the answers are `no' and `only if
> the answer to 1) were yes'. :-)
Yeah - oh well, hardly worth persuing then is there... never mind.
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:52:38
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 15:18, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Andy Duplain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
> >> executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
> >> source available, too.
>
> > Yeah I probably will do
>
> Yay! :-)
>
> >> Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the
> >> world from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to
> >> Redmond? Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable
> >> widget set (such as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate
> >> the design into a portable database core and the GUI so that people
> >> can write GUIs for other operating system.
>
> > I probably will tie it to Windows I'm afraid using both C++ and MFC as
> > I want to create the most efficient application I can.
>
> Separating the GUI and database backend shouldn't have any significant
> effect on efficiency but would leave open the option of writing GUIs
> for other operating systems. Personally, if I were interested in
> efficiency, I'd strive to avoid Microsoft's habit of putting 53 layers
> of DLL between me and the CPU. ;-)
Such things are part of the design of the application, and don't have
much/any bearing on implementation language. I agree with this
priniciple and am planning on having database file/chess engine
functionality within "modules" while the application just deals with
representing the chess game and interacting with the user - hardly
complex stuff.
I am interested in performance as well, and for that matter and
balanced with ease-of-use and maintenance I think we are still talking
C++/MFC - while .NET might be the new big thing, it doesn't give me
anything new that I need to use. Anyway, as mentioned in another post
in this thread - license and implementation are both secondary to
questions I asked in post #1: Can I support popular closed file-
formats easily and should I even bother?
Most of the posts in this thread have concentrated on how the program
will be distributed and how it will be implemented... both issues are
premature and nothing will happen unless I am confident I can support
popular chess database formats....
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:02:28
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 14:29, [email protected] wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 13:24, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
> > > Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to be
> > > the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
> > > project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
> > > up the baton.
>
> > Hardly a terrible hardship though is it... having invested nothing in
> > terms of licensing cost the user cannot feel hard-done-by can they.
>
> But they are investing personal time in terms of learning/using the
> application and the investment of their data locked up in the system.
>
> I guess it depends on your goals for the project. It is a personal
> tool which you happen to be sharing? Or something more than that.
>
> I had used Chess Position Trainer a little until I noticed a bug. I
> got no reply from the author which has made me hesitant about using it
> much in the future. Judging by the site he's active again but I think
> there was a hiatus.
>
> > I also think the chances of a young start-up company failing is as
> > likely as a single developer losing interest.
>
> That's why established companies like ChessBase continue to be
> preferred.
Well with that attitude no one would write anything unless they were
part of a large established company and that company would only allow
code to be written that had commercial benefit to them.
- OR -
You could only write code that you were willing to disclose the source
code.
I don't see why either of these cases need to be "law" and I don't see
why I cannot express whatever freedom I feel like expressing...
> Well - I was seeking input on it's viability for cross platform
> development.
>
> Don't know anything about MFC programming and am only just starting on
> Windows Forms .NET. What features are required to 'make the GUI look
> worldclass'?
Something that was fast with a GUI that looks like current Microsoft
applications - The Office family, Visual Studio, etc. Ralf has
mentioned that VS is itself written as a managed .NET application,
which is interesting...
>If you really want to excute 'unmanaged' (non .NET) code
> then .NET will let you do it.
>
> I've not done any Java development of note so maybe some comparisons
> are flawed.
>
> In .NET C# (or whatever) compiles to IL (intermediate language) which
> can then either be JIT compiled or pre-compiled to native code. So
> you'd expect reasonable performance. The IL itself is never executed.
>
> The .NET CLR (common language runtime) does offer automatic memory
> management and garbage collection. Type safety is enforced by the
> compiler. So you'd expect less bugs compared to C/C++.
No - if the type safety is done by the compiler then it will be the
same as C/C++ (or certainly straight C++). I expect there is also
considerable runtime type checking, if it's anything like Java.
> .NET assemblies (libraries) also provide metadata for types. Using the
> relection api lets the platform query type information at runtime much
> like dynamically typed languages. This also allows (e.g.) a VB.NET
> developer compile against library that was written in C#. This aspect
> is probably most useful if you wanted others to be able to develop any
> 'plug-ins'.
I don't really see anything very new here - as long as the module
interface has a well documented API and the target language is able to
interface with that API then this could be done anyway with C++/MFC.
However few would do it I guess.
I don't think the implementation and style of license of this thing is
so important as these questions:
1) Can I get some details from anyone about "closed" chess database
file formats.
2) Is there a place for yet another chess database.
>From what I've read so far, the questions to both seem to negative....
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 17:40:10
From: Jon
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Apr, 14:29, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 16 Apr, 13:24, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
>> > > Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to
>> > > be
>> > > the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
>> > > project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
>> > > up the baton.
>>
>> > Hardly a terrible hardship though is it... having invested nothing in
>> > terms of licensing cost the user cannot feel hard-done-by can they.
>>
>> But they are investing personal time in terms of learning/using the
>> application and the investment of their data locked up in the system.
>>
>> I guess it depends on your goals for the project. It is a personal
>> tool which you happen to be sharing? Or something more than that.
>>
>> I had used Chess Position Trainer a little until I noticed a bug. I
>> got no reply from the author which has made me hesitant about using it
>> much in the future. Judging by the site he's active again but I think
>> there was a hiatus.
>>
>> > I also think the chances of a young start-up company failing is as
>> > likely as a single developer losing interest.
>>
>> That's why established companies like ChessBase continue to be
>> preferred.
>
> Well with that attitude no one would write anything unless they were
> part of a large established company and that company would only allow
> code to be written that had commercial benefit to them.
>
> - OR -
>
> You could only write code that you were willing to disclose the source
> code.
>
> I don't see why either of these cases need to be "law" and I don't see
> why I cannot express whatever freedom I feel like expressing...
All I'm saying is: consider it from a user's point a view (assuming you want
users).
--
Remove numbers from email address to reply
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 15:35:49
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Andy Duplain <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 14:29, [email protected] wrote:
>> Don't know anything about MFC programming and am only just starting on
>> Windows Forms .NET. What features are required to 'make the GUI look
>> worldclass'?
>
> Something that was fast with a GUI that looks like current Microsoft
> applications - The Office family, Visual Studio, etc.
Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
>> The .NET CLR (common language runtime) does offer automatic memory
>> management and garbage collection. Type safety is enforced by the
>> compiler. So you'd expect less bugs compared to C/C++.
>
> No - if the type safety is done by the compiler then it will be the
> same as C/C++ (or certainly straight C++).
C/C++ has hardly any type system worth speaking of, given that you can
more or less cast anything to anything else. C# is much better in
this respect and has a type system much closer to something like Java.
> I expect there is also considerable runtime type checking, if it's
> anything like Java.
There is quite a bit of run-time checking, I believe.
> I don't think the implementation and style of license of this thing
> is so important as these questions:
>
> 1) Can I get some details from anyone about "closed" chess database
> file formats.
> 2) Is there a place for yet another chess database.
>
> From what I've read so far, the questions to both seem to
> negative....
I would say, more accurately, that the answers are `no' and `only if
the answer to 1) were yes'. :-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Impossible Sushi (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ raw fish but it can't exist!
|
| | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2007 02:38:34
From: Mike Leahy
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:jwc*[email protected]...
> Andy Duplain <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr, 14:29, [email protected] wrote:
>>> Don't know anything about MFC programming and am only just starting on
>>> Windows Forms .NET. What features are required to 'make the GUI look
>>> worldclass'?
>>
>> Something that was fast with a GUI that looks like current Microsoft
>> applications - The Office family, Visual Studio, etc.
>
> Oh. I thought you wanted a world-class GUI? ;-)
I don't know about a world-class GUI but... www.chessopeningssoftware.com
Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 06:29:22
From:
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 13:24, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
> > Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to be
> > the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
> > project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
> > up the baton.
>
> Hardly a terrible hardship though is it... having invested nothing in
> terms of licensing cost the user cannot feel hard-done-by can they.
But they are investing personal time in terms of learning/using the
application and the investment of their data locked up in the system.
I guess it depends on your goals for the project. It is a personal
tool which you happen to be sharing? Or something more than that.
I had used Chess Position Trainer a little until I noticed a bug. I
got no reply from the author which has made me hesitant about using it
much in the future. Judging by the site he's active again but I think
there was a hiatus.
> I also think the chances of a young start-up company failing is as
> likely as a single developer losing interest.
That's why established companies like ChessBase continue to be
preferred.
> > > Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
> > > from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
> > > Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
> > > as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
> > > portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
> > > other operating system.
>
> > Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
>
> > I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
> > long-term memory. I develop ASP.NET at work so am slowly reading up on
> > Windows Forms .NET coding - basically continuing being involved
> > in .NET for personal reasons. But the intention was to have separate
> > components for stuff like PGN support, storage, GUI components, etc.
> > That way a Mono developer could step in and provide a GTK# based front
> > end and reuse the common stuff.
>
> It seems alot like the MS version of Java? Intermediate "bytecode"
> being run within a virtual machine. While I like Java very much, and
> suspect .NET will be nearly as good, I can't say I'm particularly
> turned on by this architecture - you don't seem to have access the
> system enough to make the GUI look worldclass...- Hide quoted text -
Well - I was seeking input on it's viability for cross platform
development.
Don't know anything about MFC programming and am only just starting on
Windows Forms .NET. What features are required to 'make the GUI look
worldclass'? If you really want to excute 'unmanaged' (non .NET) code
then .NET will let you do it.
I've not done any Java development of note so maybe some comparisons
are flawed.
In .NET C# (or whatever) compiles to IL (intermediate language) which
can then either be JIT compiled or pre-compiled to native code. So
you'd expect reasonable performance. The IL itself is never executed.
The .NET CLR (common language runtime) does offer automatic memory
management and garbage collection. Type safety is enforced by the
compiler. So you'd expect less bugs compared to C/C++.
.NET assemblies (libraries) also provide metadata for types. Using the
relection api lets the platform query type information at runtime much
like dynamically typed languages. This also allows (e.g.) a VB.NET
developer compile against library that was written in C#. This aspect
is probably most useful if you wanted others to be able to develop any
'plug-ins'.
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 06:20:18
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr., 14:24, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote:
> It seems alot like the MS version of Java?
Many people like to call it this... But it's much tighter to the OS
than Java.
> Intermediate "bytecode"
> being run within a virtual machine.
As with current JREs: .NET uses JIT compilation. For pure algorithmic
tasks it is usually not much slower than C++. If a .NET app is
considerably slower than a C++ program, that has very likely other
reasons than the bytecode. Visual Studio for instance is now a .NET
application. At least on current hardware you hardly could tell this
just from the responsiveness of the program.
> While I like Java very much, and
> suspect .NET will be nearly as good, I can't say I'm particularly
> turned on by this architecture - you don't seem to have access the
> system enough to make the GUI look worldclass...
.NET applications look quite good. You also have a lot of possibilites
changing the look and feel of the controls. It's very powerful (I
would say considerably more than MFC...). And with Java - well the
guys from Sun have put a lot of effort into Swing lately. You can
tweak the appearance of your application very much to your liking.
It's also a very powerfull GUI-Framework. And with the now standard
JIT compilation it is most of the times not much slower than C++
(although you can easily write VERY unresponsive applications with
Java).
Those are just general reks, I really don't want to talk you into
something...
Greetings,
Ralf
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 05:27:31
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 12:26, "I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote:
> Just add "ralf callenberg" to your killfile. This moron doesn't have an IOTA
> of a clue about anything relating to chess. He doesn't even understand why
> chess notation is used and why it's important. A total waste of bandwidth.
On the contrary - while he might not agree with all my views and vice
versa, he is at least able to make a reasonable argument without
resorting to name calling. For that reason alone he demands my
respect, something you lost on your 2nd post to this thread.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 22:29:48
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Andy boy, you've just verified 100% that YOU'RE A LIAR. You said you were
going to ignore me yesterday and sure enough, today you're posting a
respose, just as sure as cockroaches and other vermin respond to a
flashlight being shined on them. I actually back up my posts with reasoning
and logic. You, on the other hand, are a snide little weasel that dances
around the real issue.
Anyone with a clue can see clearly that "Ralf Callenberg is a complete
idiot. He doesn't even understand why chess notation is used and why it's
important.
JMR
"Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Apr, 12:26, "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just add "ralf callenberg" to your killfile. This moron doesn't have an
>> IOTA
>> of a clue about anything relating to chess. He doesn't even understand
>> why
>> chess notation is used and why it's important. A total waste of
>> bandwidth.
>
> On the contrary - while he might not agree with all my views and vice
> versa, he is at least able to make a reasonable argument without
> resorting to name calling. For that reason alone he demands my
> respect, something you lost on your 2nd post to this thread.
>
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 05:24:01
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 12:06, David Richerby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
> > executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
> > source available, too. That way, anyone who's interested can help fix
> > bugs.
>
> Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to be
> the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
> project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
> up the baton.
Hardly a terrible hardship though is it... having invested nothing in
terms of licensing cost the user cannot feel hard-done-by can they. I
also think the chances of a young start-up company failing is as
likely as a single developer losing interest. So what you're really
saying, I suspect, is that it's open source or nothing?
> > Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
> > from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
> > Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
> > as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
> > portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
> > other operating system.
>
> Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
>
> I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
> long-term memory. I develop ASP.NET at work so am slowly reading up on
> Windows Forms .NET coding - basically continuing being involved
> in .NET for personal reasons. But the intention was to have separate
> components for stuff like PGN support, storage, GUI components, etc.
> That way a Mono developer could step in and provide a GTK# based front
> end and reuse the common stuff.
It seems alot like the MS version of Java? Intermediate "bytecode"
being run within a virtual machine. While I like Java very much, and
suspect .NET will be nearly as good, I can't say I'm particularly
turned on by this architecture - you don't seem to have access the
system enough to make the GUI look worldclass...
|
| | |
Date: 17 Apr 2007 19:44:09
From: Michael Vondung
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr 2007 05:24:01 -0700, Andy Duplain wrote:
> So what you're really
> saying, I suspect, is that it's open source or nothing?
Strictly from a (end) user's perspective, I would certainly agree with this
statement. But a discussion of this kind is bound to lead us to the tricky
topic of copyright, and that's a controversial subject.
M.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 15:15:12
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Andy Duplain <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 16 Apr, 13:08, [email protected] wrote:
>> Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to
>> be the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in
>> the project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to
>> pick up the baton.
>
> Hardly a terrible hardship though is it... having invested nothing in
> terms of licensing cost the user cannot feel hard-done-by can they.
While I agree that freeware seems similar to commercial software in
this regard, I totally disagree with your assessment. If a piece of
software turns out to have a show-stopping bug after the developer has
lost interest in it, what I lose is all the time invested in using
that software. What I lose is my data. These things are very
important.
> So what you're really saying, I suspect, is that it's open source
> or nothing?
I was saying, a little earlier in the thread, that I don't see what
advantage freeware has over open source.
>> Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
>
> It seems alot like the MS version of Java?
But without the wide cross-platform support. All of the disadvantages
without the deal-winning advantage.
> Intermediate "bytecode" being run within a virtual machine. While I
> like Java very much, and suspect .NET will be nearly as good, I
> can't say I'm particularly turned on by this architecture - you
> don't seem to have access the system enough to make the GUI look
> worldclass...
That's pretty much in the nature of an interpreted language that's
trying to be portable. Though I'd much rather have an interface that
looks OK and works really well than one that looks stunning but
doesn't do what I want. ;-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Solar-Powered Atlas (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ map of the world but it doesn't work
in the dark!
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 05:18:41
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 12:06, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Andy Duplain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Sounds encouraging. However my plans would be to produce a database
> > program that does its best to support every popular chess database
> > format, breaking any stranglehold a provider has over that format. I
> > don't plan to use ADO.NET - simply plain-old C++ - and to provide it
> > free of charge with the possibility of going open source if demand
> > dictates.
>
> What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
> executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
> source available, too. That way, anyone who's interested can help fix
> bugs.
Yeah I probably will do, however I'm going to worry about that just
yet.
> > I have already made a start (back in 1998) and my initial piece of
> > work is to ween off the use of Stingray's Objective Toolkit and onto
> > either generic MFC classes or to freely available ones - thus making
> > the source usable to others, if open source occurs. I also have to
> > re-teach myself how to program under Windows and in C++, having
> > spent most of my time since using Java and UNIX...
>
> Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
> from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
> Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
> as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
> portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
> other operating system.
I probably will tie it to Windows I'm afraid using both C++ and MFC as
I want to create the most efficient application I can.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 15:18:51
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Andy Duplain <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
>> executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
>> source available, too.
>
> Yeah I probably will do
Yay! :-)
>> Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the
>> world from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to
>> Redmond? Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable
>> widget set (such as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate
>> the design into a portable database core and the GUI so that people
>> can write GUIs for other operating system.
>
> I probably will tie it to Windows I'm afraid using both C++ and MFC as
> I want to create the most efficient application I can.
Separating the GUI and database backend shouldn't have any significant
effect on efficiency but would leave open the option of writing GUIs
for other operating systems. Personally, if I were interested in
efficiency, I'd strive to avoid Microsoft's habit of putting 53 layers
of DLL between me and the CPU. ;-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Frozen Natural Cat (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ cuddly pet but it's completely natural
and frozen in a block of ice!
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 05:08:37
From:
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 16 Apr, 12:06, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
> executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
> source available, too. That way, anyone who's interested can help fix
> bugs.
Out of commerical, open source and plain freeware - freeware has to be
the worst for the end user. If the developer losers interest in the
project then the user is stuffed: no ongoing support, no-one to pick
up the baton.
> Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
> from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
> Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
> as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
> portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
> other operating system.
Has anyone got an opinion on .NET for this?
I'm thinking about writing a chess training application that targets
long-term memory. I develop ASP.NET at work so am slowly reading up on
Windows Forms .NET coding - basically continuing being involved
in .NET for personal reasons. But the intention was to have separate
components for stuff like PGN support, storage, GUI components, etc.
That way a Mono developer could step in and provide a GTK# based front
end and reuse the common stuff.
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 04:22:18
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 12:59 pm, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Try dropping the sarcastic tone if you're asking people to help you.
Ahem, I am afraid he regarded my answer partly as a bit arrogant. I
don't blame him, you could read it indeed this way. Besides that, I
didn't offer any help, just some side reks...
Greetings,
Ralf
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 02:23:21
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 9:14 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> On Apr 16, 8:27 am, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Andy, just a well meaned advice: don't bother arguing with this guy,
> except you like to read some insults and name calling in your
> direction. It's completely useless to argue with him about anything.
> He would call you an imbecile if your dared to have a different
> opinion about the weather.
>
> Greetings,
> Ralf
Blimey - I think you are right - ignored as advised!
Cheers,
Andy
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 02:01:20
From:
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On 15 Apr, 23:11, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote:
> .NET is Windows only
http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
"Mono provides the necessary software to develop and run .NET client
and server applications on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X, Windows, and
Unix."
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 01:14:25
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 16, 8:27 am, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote:
Andy, just a well meaned advice: don't bother arguing with this guy,
except you like to read some insults and name calling in your
direction. It's completely useless to argue with him about anything.
He would call you an imbecile if your dared to have a different
opinion about the weather.
Greetings,
Ralf
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 11:26:40
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Just add "ralf callenberg" to your killfile. This moron doesn't have an IOTA
of a clue about anything relating to chess. He doesn't even understand why
chess notation is used and why it's important. A total waste of bandwidth.
JMR
|
| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 23:09:27
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code because I
haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase formats are more
efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like something
from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the functionality that CB9 has.
Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however, just download it from a torrent or
eDonkey network, or get a friend to burn you a copy. Last resort, buy a
cheap copy for $20 from someone selling them, hint, hint.
Chessbase has been in the chess software business for some time so they make
some good products, but the company is being run by tyrants and thieves,
they give you zero support and will literally steal your money if you
purchase a playchess.com membership. Just take their software and don't pay
anything.
JMR
|
| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:27:50
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"I was better but....." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:HgyUh.81014$6m4.67347@pd7urf1no...
>I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code because I
>haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase formats are more
>efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>
> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like something
> from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the functionality that CB9
> has. Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however, just download it from a
> torrent or eDonkey network, or get a friend to burn you a copy. Last
> resort, buy a cheap copy for $20 from someone selling them, hint, hint.
>
> Chessbase has been in the chess software business for some time so they
> make some good products, but the company is being run by tyrants and
> thieves, they give you zero support and will literally steal your money if
> you purchase a playchess.com membership. Just take their software and
> don't pay anything.
I'm stunned! I have just woken up admittedly, but to hear you say "don't
bother making a freely available database; just steal a commercial one" is
an amazing attitude. This doesn't bring anything to the chess community
does it? It also doesn't do anything to stop these tyrants and thieves and
get them to mend their ways - a product that competes with theirs, but is
freely available, and possibly maintained by many individiuals making new
features available within weeks of suggestion is a good way to make a
dominating company mend its ways - pirating their products will just make
them more likely to add protection mechanisms that will hurt chess players -
as they have to jump through more hoops and probably pay even more as the
company feels they can justify the increases through loss of earnings due to
piracy!
Blimey.
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 13:42:59
From: Chris L
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
>> "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:HgyUh.81014$6m4.67347@pd7urf1no...
>>I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code
>>because I haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase
>>formats are more efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>>
>> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
>> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like
>> something from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the
>> functionality that CB9 has. Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however,
>> just download it from a torrent or eDonkey network, or get a friend
>> to burn you a copy. Last resort, buy a cheap copy for $20 from
>> someone selling them, hint, hint.
Scid's interface takes a little getting used to, but there is a lot of
power underneath the hood. Besides aesthetics, what does CB9 do that Scid
doesn't? I am sure there are a great many things, but I am curious what is
important to people...
Someone told me that CB9 still doesn't catch transpositions in the tree?
c
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Apr 2007 13:28:58
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Chris L <chris[at]chrislott[dot]org > wrote:
> Scid's interface takes a little getting used to, but there is a lot
> of power underneath the hood. Besides aesthetics, what does CB9 do
> that Scid doesn't? I am sure there are a great many things, but I am
> curious what is important to people...
It doesn't read ChessBase files. ;-) So a lot of people don't use it
because all their data is in .CBH and they don't want to change.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Natural Laser (TM): it's like an
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ intense beam of light but it's
completely natural!
|
| | | | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 22:45:45
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"Chris L" <chris[at]chrislott[dot]org > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>> "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:HgyUh.81014$6m4.67347@pd7urf1no...
>>>I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code
>>>because I haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase
>>>formats are more efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>>>
>>> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
>>> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like
>>> something from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the
>>> functionality that CB9 has. Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however,
>>> just download it from a torrent or eDonkey network, or get a friend
>>> to burn you a copy. Last resort, buy a cheap copy for $20 from
>>> someone selling them, hint, hint.
>
> Scid's interface takes a little getting used to, but there is a lot of
> power underneath the hood.
What are you talking about? The interface is out and out terrible. As I
said, it looks like something from the early 90's, in an age where we're
used to high resolution images. Our modern computers can more than handle
the extra overhead so there's no downside. If you spend alot of time looking
at positions, as many tournament chess players do, the interface quality
makes a really big difference. Trust me, "aesthetics", as you put it, are
very important.
What is this "power under the hood". As far as I know there isn't a single
useful thing that SCID can do that Chessbase 9 can't. If you can tell me
some magical, or at least useful feature that SCID has that CB9 doesn't I
might consider keeping it around. The only reason I tried the latest SCID in
the first place is because I thought the reduced overhead might equal faster
indexing. It doesn't. But Chessbase 9 can do many many things that SCID
can't. I'm really not interested in doing a complete investigation of SCID
because it's not worth my time, but off the top of my head, try...
- opening reports
- dossier
- copy to notation
- theme classification
- reference database
- repertoir database
- DGT Support
- engine locking (very important feature when reviewing tournament games)
- simultaneous multiple database querying
Anyway, i'm not trying to argue with you. SCID is free, what do you expect.
For someone that for some reason didn't have access to Chessbase 9 or the
latest Chess Assistant, it would certainly be alot better than nothing. I'm
not trying to see Chessbase here. I haven't tried Chess assistant, and some
people believe that's the superior product. That might be true, but for my
part, I get what I need done with Chessbase 9 and it has an easy on the eyes
high resolultion interface which I like. I have no need to learn to use a
new database program.
JMR
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:59:26
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "I was better but....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:HgyUh.81014$6m4.67347@pd7urf1no...
>>I haven't bothered messing around with the .cbh (.cbv, etc) code because I
>>haven't felt a reason to do so. Basically the chessbase formats are more
>>efficient (smaller and index quicker) than .pgn.
>>
>> I don't see what database need you could have that Chessbase 9 hasn't
>> covered. I've tried Scid and it's just awful. The gui looks like
>> something from the early 90's and it's missing alot of the functionality
>> that CB9 has. Don't pay one red cent for CB9, however, just download it
>> from a torrent or eDonkey network, or get a friend to burn you a copy.
>> Last resort, buy a cheap copy for $20 from someone selling them, hint,
>> hint.
>>
>> Chessbase has been in the chess software business for some time so they
>> make some good products, but the company is being run by tyrants and
>> thieves, they give you zero support and will literally steal your money
>> if you purchase a playchess.com membership. Just take their software and
>> don't pay anything.
>
> I'm stunned! I have just woken up admittedly, but to hear you say "don't
> bother making a freely available database; just steal a commercial one" is
> an amazing attitude.
Nothing "amazing" about it. The only thing amazing here is what a an
insincere liar you are. You probably file share with the best of them. You
just don't have the balls or the honesty to admit it. The vast majority of
people don't pay for a great deal of the software and media they use. That's
a fact. p2p file sharing is responsible for TRILLIONS of dollars of software
and media being traded....not billions....TRILLIONS. Go and look it up. It's
easy to prove the truth of what i'm saying.
If someone developed a good open source database program that would be fine.
But what's the point in using an inferior product like SCID when you can use
Chessbase. And I never said "don't bother making a freely available
database". Don't tell lies and don't mince my words. Re-read what I did say
a few times until you understand it. Don't change what I said in your
replies.
> It also doesn't do anything to stop these tyrants and thieves and get them
> to mend their ways
Nor does you whining like an idiot. There is nothing you can do to stop
tyrants from being tyrants. So stop crying about it and deal with it.
Chessbase ripped me off, twice. Do you hear my crying about it? Not at all.
I've cost them MANY MANY times what they've cost me and made a tidy profit
as well. They just shot themself in the foot. I've vowed to never buy
another Chessbase product ever again. I make sure nobody I know does either.
I burn them copies.
JMR
|
| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 14:10:30
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 15, 8:28 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 15.04.2007 17:00, Andy Duplain:
> With Chessbase and Chess Assistant there are already two quite good
> databases under Windows on the ket, while Linux and Macintosh have
> only Scid as a choice. Sure, most users will be under Windows, but it
> might be a nice idea anyway to have a solution for the minority as well.
> So, something platform independent might be an idea. If it shall not be
> Java, there are at least other options than MFC, which is completely
> outdated (and horrible...). If programming under Windows and not using
> .NET, it would be anyway a good idea to look at other frameworks - not
> only because of the ability to stay cross-platform. If you are serious
> about open source, Qt might be a good choice. Other open source
> frameworks exist, which don't require you to open source your application.
Yes, I agree with this. But it argues strongly for using .NET, which
is platform independent (though I have not seen it yet ported to
Macintosh--but I don't follow Mac stuff). And for dBs, .NET means
ADO.NET for the most part (though of course you can use older
libraries as well). Within ADO.NET, I favor SQL Server, though of
course you can use generic legacy database providers such as OLE DB,
ODBC, or proprietary versions from Oracle, etc.
RL
|
| | |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 23:11:39
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 15, 8:28 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 15.04.2007 17:00, Andy Duplain:
>
>> With Chessbase and Chess Assistant there are already two quite good
>> databases under Windows on the ket, while Linux and Macintosh have
>> only Scid as a choice. Sure, most users will be under Windows, but it
>> might be a nice idea anyway to have a solution for the minority as well.
>> So, something platform independent might be an idea. If it shall not be
>> Java, there are at least other options than MFC, which is completely
>> outdated (and horrible...). If programming under Windows and not using
>> .NET, it would be anyway a good idea to look at other frameworks - not
>> only because of the ability to stay cross-platform. If you are serious
>> about open source, Qt might be a good choice. Other open source
>> frameworks exist, which don't require you to open source your
>> application.
>
>
> Yes, I agree with this. But it argues strongly for using .NET, which
> is platform independent (though I have not seen it yet ported to
> Macintosh--but I don't follow Mac stuff). And for dBs, .NET means
> ADO.NET for the most part (though of course you can use older
> libraries as well). Within ADO.NET, I favor SQL Server, though of
> course you can use generic legacy database providers such as OLE DB,
> ODBC, or proprietary versions from Oracle, etc.
.NET is Windows only - what is does allow is implementation in different
languages; C#, C++, Visual Basic, etc. I don't see how it has any advantage
over MFC or generic Windows libraries myself - it's just newer.
Chess databases don't use SQL - not any I've seen - and they aren't really
databases in anything other than the crudest sense - they might have index
files but they don't have the concept of tables and columns and foreign keys
and don't use SQL to query them. The term "database" is correct, however
they are not relational databases. This is probably a good thing when the
requirement is simply to store a group of games and retrieve those games as
quickly as possible, all with minimal overhead - in most (all?) cases that's
just a reasonable simple set of library functions, and not a standalone
database program.
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Date: 15 Apr 2007 14:03:54
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 15, 7:00 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 15.04.2007 12:47, raylopez99:
>
> > Yes, Andy, there's a need for a chess database that is superior to the
> > current freeware dB (see my post in this forum today).
>
> That is just a glitch in the GUI. If required this could be easily
> fixed. There is no need to write a complete new DB just because of this.
Then I look forward to your patch. Please post it to this board when
you are done; a bright fellow like you should have it done in 30
minutes or so. Probably it's one line of code that needs to be fixed
along the lines of activating the evaluation window to keep it in the
foreground at all times.
>
> > But even more importantly, there's a need for a decent chess variants
> > program(s), such as traditional Indian chess (sorry my book by Murray
> > is just out of reach), suicide chess (winner loses faster),
> > Blitzcraig, etc and maybe even a GO and/or bridge artificial
> > intelligence program for good measure.
>
> Maybe some word processing would not be bad; sending e-mails, watching
> videos and playing mp3 and ogg would also be nice. And when idle it
> could do some SETI calculations.
Yes, agreed; that would indeed be very cool. ;-)
>
> > Now with ADO.NET making dB programming a bit easier it should be
> > easier to code a dB,
>
> The main work when writing a chess DB is creating a suitable data format
> and search algorithms, so that you can perform powerful searches in
> quick time. ADO.NET or things like that are of absolutely no help there.
I assume that SQL is used for search algorithms in chess dBs, no? If
not, this is news to me, please explain further.
>
> > but, as you know better than I, you cannot use
> > canned library routines when writing a chess engine
>
> Chess engines are just an add-on to a chess DB.
>
"just" an add on for you, a programming God. FOr the rest of us
mortals it's a full time project.
> > You know the programmers are not using the canned templates and
> > library functions provided by the Windows framework.
>
> Ahem, what kind of library functions or "templates" (btw - what do you
> mean with that?)
Template is a defined term in ANSI C++, look it up. Library functions
are in Windows very type-safe with all kinds of run-time error traps
to make them foolproof, at a cost of making them very slow (but safe).
> do you need when doing pure calculations? You need this
> stuff only when interacting with the operating system, especially for
> doing the GUI, disk operations and such. And here they use of course the
> provided Windows framework.
>
Exactly. We are saying the same thing; sorry I was not clear. You
need "pure calculations" in a chess program (not database, I assume
you use SQL, see above). For example, traversing the chess tree is
one such "pure calculation" that does not use any template or windows
function I am aware of (that is, constructing a multi-node tree using
Min/Max Alpha/Beta and pruning, etc).
RL (master programmer---not!)
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| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 11:59:54
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> Ralf Callenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 15.04.2007 12:47, raylopez99:
>>> Yes, Andy, there's a need for a chess database that is superior to
>>> the current freeware dB (see my post in this forum today).
>>
>> That is just a glitch in the GUI. If required this could be easily
>> fixed. There is no need to write a complete new DB just because of
>> this.
>
> Then I look forward to your patch. Please post it to this board
> when you are done; a bright fellow like you should have it done in
> 30 minutes or so.
Try dropping the sarcastic tone if you're asking people to help you.
>>> but, as you know better than I, you cannot use canned library
>>> routines when writing a chess engine
>>
>> Chess engines are just an add-on to a chess DB.
>
> "just" an add on for you, a programming God. FOr the rest of us
> mortals it's a full time project.
Just an add-on in the sense that, rather than writing a chess program
from scratch, you simply call execute an existing chess engine and
tell it which position to analyze. It's not trivial but it's not
terribly difficult for a competent programmer and much of the
necessary code has already been written.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Technicolor Radio (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ radio but it's in realistic colour!
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Date: 16 Apr 2007 11:24:16
From: I was better but.....
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:Mnq*[email protected]...
> raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ralf Callenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 15.04.2007 12:47, raylopez99:
>>>> Yes, Andy, there's a need for a chess database that is superior to
>>>> the current freeware dB (see my post in this forum today).
>>>
>>> That is just a glitch in the GUI. If required this could be easily
>>> fixed. There is no need to write a complete new DB just because of
>>> this.
>>
>> Then I look forward to your patch. Please post it to this board
>> when you are done; a bright fellow like you should have it done in
>> 30 minutes or so.
>
> Try dropping the sarcastic tone if you're asking people to help you.
Richerboy.....I don't think he had in mind a useless, know-nothing, usenet
troll like you when he was looking for someone to help.
JMR
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Date: 16 Apr 2007 02:27:08
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
15.04.2007 23:03, raylopez99:
>
> Then I look forward to your patch. Please post it to this board when
> you are done; a bright fellow like you should have it done in 30
> minutes or so.
I don't know the source code of Scid and I don't know Tk (the GUI
framework used by Scid), so I won't be able to come up with a patch like
that. But what I do know: to keep a window in the foreground should be
easily done in most GUI frame works.
> I assume that SQL is used for search algorithms in chess dBs, no?
No.
> If
> not, this is news to me, please explain further.
The kind of queries you want to perform on a chess DB can not very well
be described in SQL, as you are not so much interested in set operations
but in pattern searches.
>
>>> but, as you know better than I, you cannot use
>>> canned library routines when writing a chess engine
>> Chess engines are just an add-on to a chess DB.
>>
>
> "just" an add on for you, a programming God. FOr the rest of us
> mortals it's a full time project.
You misunderstood me: not the writing of the engine itself is an add-on.
But for a chess DB an engine is an add-on. Usually you need a chess DB
to search for positions (well, that's what a chess DB is for). It is
handy to evaluate found postions inside the program with a chess
program, but it is not an original part of the database. If chess
engines are part of a DB-product they are plugged in using interfaces,
agnostic to the actual engine. This is the way with Chessbase, Chess
Assistant or Scid: chess engines are plugged in, and can be replaced by
others.
>>> You know the programmers are not using the canned templates and
>>> library functions provided by the Windows framework.
>> Ahem, what kind of library functions or "templates" (btw - what do you
>> mean with that?)
>
> Template is a defined term in ANSI C++, look it up.
I know what C++ templates are, thank you. What I don't know is what you
mean with "canned templates".
> Exactly. We are saying the same thing; sorry I was not clear. You
> need "pure calculations" in a chess program (not database, I assume
> you use SQL, see above). For example, traversing the chess tree is
> one such "pure calculation" that does not use any template or windows
> function I am aware of (that is, constructing a multi-node tree using
> Min/Max Alpha/Beta and pruning, etc).
First: templates are on the contrary a very good way to produce quite
fast algorithms - if you are using C++. A library for fast numerical
operations like Blitz++ for instance makes intensive use of the C++
template mechanism. And second: I still don't see why the program should
use Windows functions for algorithms at all. Those Windows functions
have nothing to do with data structures or algorithms, they are just for
interactions with the display, storage and so on. They are not used in
calculations simply because they are not needed there. The only part of
the Windows framework which might be of interest is the API for
multithreading. That is used in those Deep something products which can
take advantage of mulitple processors or multiple cores. And if you want
to produce fast code with as few overhead as possible, you better use
those Windows functions directly.
So I still don't quite understand, what you are heading to.
Greetings,
Ralf
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| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 12:00:20
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
If you see that either the interface, or the methodology is not useful
in SCID, can't you just use the DB and the search mechanisms in that,
and build from there?
That way you keep the DB's that work with Scid still working, and if
anyone does anything with CBH databases they can do that as well?
Though it seems that you are ticked off at CB for some reason, and feel
the need to release their IP on the world. Though I for one, fully
support CB with my money, and my words, because I feel that CB has
single handedly, more than any other company or group out there, to the
world of Chess as we know it. And the profit motive has made it so.
And that they simply do not make it too onerous for those that really
need those features on any given day to do so.
But, good luck to you.
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| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 10:22:25
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Sounds encouraging. My intention is to produce a Windows program that
can read/write as many different databases as possible, with useful
search features and the ability to add features via plug-in (engines
etc.). I don't think however that I can provide initial support for
the chess variants you mention, however perhaps at a later point this
will be possible.
I have already made a start (back in 1998 or so) and have a partially
working program, however I am having to reacquint myself with Windows/C
++ programming having been in the Java/UNIX world since I originally
wrote the program.
But I need help - not with the coding, but with the decyphering of the
file-formats, so the more people can tell me about popular formats
(other than CBF and PGN) the better.
I won't be using ADO.NET as I don't intend to create yet another
database format - simply a program that can read/write as many formats
as possible and provide the same level of functionality to all
supported formats.
Best Regards,
Andy
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| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 08:00:42
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Sounds encouraging. However my plans would be to produce a database
program that does its best to support every popular chess database
format, breaking any stranglehold a provider has over that format. I
don't plan to use ADO.NET - simply plain-old C++ - and to provide it
free of charge with the possibility of going open source if demand
dictates. I also wouldn't support the variants you mention, however
if it did go open source, others may fill the gaps - my task is
complex enough to ignore them for the moment.
However I would need help - not with the coding, but with the
decyphering of file-formats - in the form of source code or specs.
I have already made a start (back in 1998) and my initial piece of
work is to ween off the use of Stingray's Objective Toolkit and onto
either generic MFC classes or to freely available ones - thus making
the source usable to others, if open source occurs. I also have to re-
teach myself how to program under Windows and in C++, having spent
most of my time since using Java and UNIX...
Best Regards,
Andy
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| | |
Date: 16 Apr 2007 12:06:12
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
Andy Duplain <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sounds encouraging. However my plans would be to produce a database
> program that does its best to support every popular chess database
> format, breaking any stranglehold a provider has over that format. I
> don't plan to use ADO.NET - simply plain-old C++ - and to provide it
> free of charge with the possibility of going open source if demand
> dictates.
What's so secret about the source code? If you're making the
executable freely available, I'd strongly encourage you to make the
source available, too. That way, anyone who's interested can help fix
bugs.
> I have already made a start (back in 1998) and my initial piece of
> work is to ween off the use of Stingray's Objective Toolkit and onto
> either generic MFC classes or to freely available ones - thus making
> the source usable to others, if open source occurs. I also have to
> re-teach myself how to program under Windows and in C++, having
> spent most of my time since using Java and UNIX...
Please don't tie it to Windows! What's the point of freeing the world
from the chains of ChessBase et al, only to shackle us to Redmond?
Why not use Java or, at least, C/C++ with a portable widget set (such
as GTK) for the GUI? At the very least, separate the design into a
portable database core and the GUI so that people can write GUIs for
other operating system.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Voodoo Pants (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ well-tailored pair of trousers that
has mystical powers!
|
| | |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 17:28:27
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
15.04.2007 17:00, Andy Duplain:
> I also have to re-
> teach myself how to program under Windows and in C++, having spent
> most of my time since using Java and UNIX...
Do you regard the performance difference between Java and C++ as so big,
that it is necessary to change the language? There are pure Java SQL
databases around, which are quite fast. Why shouldn't it be possible to
write a chess DB in Java? Or are there other reasons than performance
which speak against Java?
With Chessbase and Chess Assistant there are already two quite good
databases under Windows on the ket, while Linux and Macintosh have
only Scid as a choice. Sure, most users will be under Windows, but it
might be a nice idea anyway to have a solution for the minority as well.
So, something platform independent might be an idea. If it shall not be
Java, there are at least other options than MFC, which is completely
outdated (and horrible...). If programming under Windows and not using
.NET, it would be anyway a good idea to look at other frameworks - not
only because of the ability to stay cross-platform. If you are serious
about open source, Qt might be a good choice. Other open source
frameworks exist, which don't require you to open source your application.
Greetings,
Ralf
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 19:23:01
From: Andy Duplain
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
"Ralf Callenberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 15.04.2007 17:00, Andy Duplain:
>> I also have to re-
>> teach myself how to program under Windows and in C++, having spent
>> most of my time since using Java and UNIX...
>
> Do you regard the performance difference between Java and C++ as so big,
> that it is necessary to change the language? There are pure Java SQL
> databases around, which are quite fast. Why shouldn't it be possible to
> write a chess DB in Java? Or are there other reasons than performance
> which speak against Java?
I haven't spoken against Java - I find it an excellent platform while
programming web server code, and I think it provide a fantastically rich and
resilient environment, however there are 2 reasons I would go for C++: 1) I
already have a partially written program written in C++ and MFC (and
Objective Toolkit, which I will have to rectify) and 2) I do want the
application to be as fast as possible - this will be an important feature.
> With Chessbase and Chess Assistant there are already two quite good
> databases under Windows on the ket, while Linux and Macintosh have only
> Scid as a choice. Sure, most users will be under Windows, but it might be
> a nice idea anyway to have a solution for the minority as well. So,
> something platform independent might be an idea. If it shall not be Java,
> there are at least other options than MFC, which is completely outdated
> (and horrible...). If programming under Windows and not using .NET, it
> would be anyway a good idea to look at other frameworks - not only because
> of the ability to stay cross-platform. If you are serious about open
> source, Qt might be a good choice. Other open source frameworks exist,
> which don't require you to open source your application.
I agree with you - however these two databases are commercial and I want to
provide something that is free to use. While I understand that not everyone
in the world uses Windows (I have a Linux server myself that I'm rather fond
of) I use Windows for my client environment. While I mention the
possibility of open source I am not necessarily going to provide a cross
platform solution - if others want to participate in order to make it work
under Mac/Linux/Whatever then so be it, however it's possible to be open
source without writing it in a cross platform environment.
I know C++ and MFC and although a little rusty, I am not going to learn
newer technologies to implement this thing - as already mentioned I want to
make use of existing work. MFC might be outdated (been out of the Windows
programming scene also) it certainly isn't horrible by any means - I quite
like it - and provides a more than adequate platform for implementing a
Windows program.
Best Regards,
Andy
|
| |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 03:47:07
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
On Apr 15, 3:11 am, "Andy Duplain" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Hello - my interest in chess and chess-playing programs has now peaked
> again and before leaving "the scene" several years ago I was in the
> process of decoding/hacking the .CBH (and family) of file-formats in
> order to support the format in a new chess database program I was
> developing.
>
> Can anyone tell me if any progress has been made decoding the CBH file-
> format?
>
> Also can anyone, who uses chess databases, tell me if there is any
> "need" for yet another chess database program? I would make the
> program freely available, though perhaps not the source code, as I
> have with my previous contributions to the community...
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Andy Duplain
Yes, Andy, there's a need for a chess database that is superior to the
current freeware dB (see my post in this forum today).
But even more importantly, there's a need for a decent chess variants
program(s), such as traditional Indian chess (sorry my book by Murray
is just out of reach), suicide chess (winner loses faster),
Blitzcraig, etc and maybe even a GO and/or bridge artificial
intelligence program for good measure.
Now with ADO.NET making dB programming a bit easier it should be
easier to code a dB, but, as you know better than I, you cannot use
canned library routines when writing a chess engine--speed is of
upmost importance. It always amazes me how Fritz will find nearly the
best line in 5 seconds as much as in 20 seconds or more. Amazing.
You know the programmers are not using the canned templates and
library functions provided by the Windows framework.
RL
|
| | |
Date: 15 Apr 2007 16:00:32
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: CBH file-format spec and the need for a new database program?
|
15.04.2007 12:47, raylopez99:
> Yes, Andy, there's a need for a chess database that is superior to the
> current freeware dB (see my post in this forum today).
That is just a glitch in the GUI. If required this could be easily
fixed. There is no need to write a complete new DB just because of this.
> But even more importantly, there's a need for a decent chess variants
> program(s), such as traditional Indian chess (sorry my book by Murray
> is just out of reach), suicide chess (winner loses faster),
> Blitzcraig, etc and maybe even a GO and/or bridge artificial
> intelligence program for good measure.
Maybe some word processing would not be bad; sending e-mails, watching
videos and playing mp3 and ogg would also be nice. And when idle it
could do some SETI calculations.
> Now with ADO.NET making dB programming a bit easier it should be
> easier to code a dB,
The main work when writing a chess DB is creating a suitable data format
and search algorithms, so that you can perform powerful searches in
quick time. ADO.NET or things like that are of absolutely no help there.
> but, as you know better than I, you cannot use
> canned library routines when writing a chess engine
Chess engines are just an add-on to a chess DB.
> You know the programmers are not using the canned templates and
> library functions provided by the Windows framework.
Ahem, what kind of library functions or "templates" (btw - what do you
mean with that?) do you need when doing pure calculations? You need this
stuff only when interacting with the operating system, especially for
doing the GUI, disk operations and such. And here they use of course the
provided Windows framework.
Greetings,
Ralf
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|
