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Date: 20 Oct 2008 11:41:41
From: chessplayer
Subject: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29 R d1 thereby trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.
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Date: 23 Oct 2008 03:11:55
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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On Oct 21, 10:40=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote: > On Oct 21, 7:16=A0pm, David Richerby <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > [email protected] wrote: > > >> chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>> The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence > > >>> of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have > > >>> played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik > > >>> should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the > > >>> Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29 > > >>> R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...] > > > >> It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4 > > >> Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. > > > > My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right > > > upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer. > > > Oh, well. =A0In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant hole= s > > since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours, > > O Great One. =A0Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the > > scabby denizens of this little internet hovel. > > No, I didn't mean it like that. Simply that the line is clearly in > white's favor. Not marginally but overwhelmingly in white's favor. =A0In > fact he comes out not only a pawn ahead but positionally ahead as well > in the end game making it a clear win. :) > Here's the line as played on computer analysis. Nf3 Qf6 (so far its the game as it was played) but here is where I feel Kramniks tactics were off. Playing N X d4 was not bad but it should have been played after B x d7 K x d7 So, following Nf3 Qf6 B x d7 K x d7 N x d4 K e7 Rd1 Rd8 Qh5 Qg6 Q x g6 h x g6 Rd2 e5 Nb3 Rc8 a5 g5 h3 Ke6 Re2 Kd5 Re1 Rc2 Rd1+ Kc4 Nd2+ Kb4 a6 B x a6 Ne4 g4 N x g4 Bc4 Rd7 R x b2 Re7 bd3 R X e5 Rb1+ Kh2 Rb2 f3 Rc2 Nf6 Kb3 Nh5 Rc4 Kh3 Rd4 Rc5 Kb4 Rc6 Bc4 Rf6 Kc5 N x f4 Rd8 I believe its all over by now g5 kd4 g4 ke5 Rf5+ kd4 g6 f x g6 N x g6 Bd3 I guess even we might be able to win it from here onwards. The computer takes the end game where one pawn easily queens (The end game is with a rook each and white having two pawns where one certainly queens and even a five year old kid could mate with a rook and queen). > > > > > > Dave. > > > -- > > David Richerby =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = Generic Beer (TM): it's like awww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/=A0=A0 =A0= =A0refreshing lager but it's just like > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0all the others!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
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Date: 21 Oct 2008 10:40:22
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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On Oct 21, 7:16=A0pm, David Richerby <[email protected] > wrote: > chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: > > [email protected] wrote: > >> chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence > >>> of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have > >>> played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik > >>> should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the > >>> Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29 > >>> R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...] > > >> It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4 > >> Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. > > > My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right > > upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer. > > Oh, well. =A0In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant holes > since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours, > O Great One. =A0Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the > scabby denizens of this little internet hovel. No, I didn't mean it like that. Simply that the line is clearly in white's favor. Not marginally but overwhelmingly in white's favor. In fact he comes out not only a pawn ahead but positionally ahead as well in the end game making it a clear win. :) > > Dave. > > -- > David Richerby =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ge= neric Beer (TM): it's like awww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/=A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0refreshing lager but it's just like > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0all the others!
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 20:44:28
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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On Oct 21, 12:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote: > On Oct 20, 2:41=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of > > moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played > > B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have > > played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q > > x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on =A0move 29 =A0R d1 thereby > > trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with > > Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be > > taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have > > been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him. > > =A0 It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4 > Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer. I'll write out the entire line later (as I have to go now). I do agree that the knight comes into a position where it might be difficult to envision that you can eventually save it but these are world class players and they should be able to play (and envision) the line which I will write out. The end game is clearly in white's favor. Overwhelmingly so (when at this level being a pawn up is all it takes). I honestly believe Kramnik messed up his tactics. As you saw, the line he did play was horrible. It ended in certain defeat. So, at worst my line may have only resulted in a draw and at best it would have been a very satisfying victory for him. :) To move it immediately > allows 29...Qxb2, therefore to keep his extra pawn White has to play > 29. Rd1, to which Black replies 29... Rd8, attacking the knight again. > Then if 30. Nc2?? or 30. Nb3?? Qg6! wins, therefore 30. Qh5 is pretty > much forced, so that if 30...Rxd4?? 31.Qc5+. Best play after 30.Qh5 > appears to be =A030... Rd5 31. Qf3 Kf8, which renews the threat to the > Nd4 and allows the possibility of retreating the king to g8 or g7, and > then pushing the e-pawn to get some action going in the center and > kingside before White's queenside pawns become a serious threat. With > his knight pinned, and with Black's B and Q able to threaten the king, > White has to be very careful, and has a hard time making progress. > =A0 27.Bxd7 may still have been best for White, but it should be > followed up by, say, 28.a5, getting things going on the queenside, or > 28.Rd1, rather than the immediate 28.Nxd4. Still, this is a complex, > double-edged position, and I won't presume to have rendered a final > verdict at all.
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Date: 21 Oct 2008 15:16:21
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote: > [email protected] wrote: >> chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote: >>> The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence >>> of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have >>> played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik >>> should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the >>> Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29 >>> R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...] >> >> It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4 >> Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. > > My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right > upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer. Oh, well. In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant holes since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours, O Great One. Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the scabby denizens of this little internet hovel. Dave. -- David Richerby Generic Beer (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ refreshing lager but it's just like all the others!
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 12:27:24
From:
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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On Oct 20, 2:41=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote: > The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of > moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played > B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have > played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q > x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on =A0move 29 =A0R d1 thereby > trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with > Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be > taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have > been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him. It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4 Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. To move it immediately allows 29...Qxb2, therefore to keep his extra pawn White has to play 29. Rd1, to which Black replies 29... Rd8, attacking the knight again. Then if 30. Nc2?? or 30. Nb3?? Qg6! wins, therefore 30. Qh5 is pretty much forced, so that if 30...Rxd4?? 31.Qc5+. Best play after 30.Qh5 appears to be 30... Rd5 31. Qf3 Kf8, which renews the threat to the Nd4 and allows the possibility of retreating the king to g8 or g7, and then pushing the e-pawn to get some action going in the center and kingside before White's queenside pawns become a serious threat. With his knight pinned, and with Black's B and Q able to threaten the king, White has to be very careful, and has a hard time making progress. 27.Bxd7 may still have been best for White, but it should be followed up by, say, 28.a5, getting things going on the queenside, or 28.Rd1, rather than the immediate 28.Nxd4. Still, this is a complex, double-edged position, and I won't presume to have rendered a final verdict at all.
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Date: 20 Oct 2008 11:44:35
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off
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On Oct 20, 11:41=A0pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote: > The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of > moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played > B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have > played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q > x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on =A0move 29 =A0R d1 thereby > trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with > Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be > taken. (CORRECTION) ANAND would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik woul= d have > been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.
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